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Grom Hellscream, and possible Warcraft revisions?

ThyBadger

ThyBadger

77
8
The profile lists Grom as 6-C and "stronger than Gul'Dan", despite him showing few if any legitimate feats that suggest that tier. Grommash also was imprisoned by Gul'Dan during WoD .

His greatest individual feat was one shotting Mannoroth in WC3 and WoD both because he struck weak points. In the case of WoD, he specifically went for the head because he prepared with Garrosh, and it was also a weak point. At the time, Grom had no influence from demon blood and was just a strong but regular orc and Gorehowl wasn't imbued with any particularly powerful. We also see that Grom struggled to pull and lift the Iron Star catapult before killing Mannoroth - wall level feat?

The Cenarius feat is on potentially shaky ground since Grom had assistance during battle so i can't see that being relevant.

Thrall is also only at his peak with his magic, and only engaged with Grommash in physical combat where he should be much lower in terms of power.

It is also stated in WoW Chronicles that orcs become dozens of times stronger on the demon blood, and the average orc is wall level or so, and that should be small building at most?

Also, Grom's assistance during the Hellfire Citadel raid with Archimonde may not be legit either since it could be game mechanics and his contribution should be minimal, the presence of the legendary rings and the elements of Draenor.

It also seems that many Warcraft characters have much lower durability than their attack power. Some examples: Archimonde was "hurt" by Thrall's lightning, Deathwing was "gravely" injured by Alexstrasza during the battle of Grim Batol even though she is supposedly beneath the Lich King.
 
Hellbeast1 said:
Also if i remember correctly there is a 6-A calc for Thrall which should scale to Arthas.
Click to expand...
Gul'dan before retconns also rose the Broken Isles from the sea, which is a continent. That should be a 6-A feat as well, i believe. During Legion, it was retconned that he rose the continent and he had just risen the Broken Shore and the Tomb of Sargeras.
 
Hellbeast1 said:
Also if i remember correctly there is a 6-A calc for Thrall which should scale to Arthas.
Click to expand...
That's not so far from the truth, since WC3 Gul'dan raised Broken Islands from the sea, which should be at least high 6-B feat.Arthas, Illidan, Mannaroth should be above Gul'dan, idk for Thrall really.
 
Btw I agree with this downgrade, Grom's page is poorly done with a lot of assumptions.As if no one really pays much attention to WoW characters.Also to mention that Thrall's full powered hammer amplified by magic was casually tanked by Mannaroth, yet Grommash kills him by striking his head.Also I should mention that he shouldn't be able to match Thrall when he is amplified by magic though it's not suprising that he was capable of defeating Thrall without use of the elements.Thrall vs Garrosh says a lot about it, Garrosh was easily winning untill Thrall used magic and stomped him without any difficulty.
 
The short answer is yes and no. Yes to Gromm's profile needing a lot of work and no to him not scaling to Mannoroth and by virtue,Thrall. Scaling him to Gul'Dan is incorrect however.

In fact, Gul'Dan's own Island level rating is wrong. His feat where he raises the Broken Shore Island from the bottom of the sea has been retconned. Previously sources only mentioned Gul'Dan raising the island by himself but now they state that he did it with the help of Cho'gall and the other warlocks of the Stormreaver and Twilight's Hammer clans. It also took them a fairly long time to raise the island so this feat is unusable.

That said, Gromm absolutely scales to Mannoroth. First of all, I don't know where this "weak points" part is coming from but it's incorrect, Gromm overpowered Mannoroth. During the first one-shot Gromm cleanly cut through Mannoroth's blocking weapon and his strike still had enough power to go through Mannoroth's armored plating and cut deep enough to outright kill him in one strike. Mannoroth who tanked a serious hit from Thrall with little damage and was then capable of knocking him out in a single hit.

Funnily enough, even though Gromm's current scaling is incorrect he'd still possibly end up being Island level in the near future as I currently have two calcs waiting for approval which could place Thrall either at Large Mountain+ or, through powerscaling, at baseline Island level.

As for Cenarius, unless you mean that by "assistance" Gromm had like a dozen warlocks amping him up even more then the demon blood was then he should still scale. He was fully capable of wounding and even killing Cenarius i.e he could hurt him, Gromm scales.

I do however agree that Gromm isn't a character that would have the same AP and DP without his axe, Gorehowl. I can't say the same for the other two examples as in the case of Archimonde, Thrall was already barely capable of dealing any damage to Mannoroth so whatever he did to Archimonde was at best, next to nothing. More likely then that it was simply just an outlier.

As for Alexstrasza hurting Deathwing, she was always one of the stronger Aspects and Deathwing's post-Deepholm boost was only ten times. It's not entirely impossible that they were still in a category where she could still do damage to him.
 
@Myriad

If you have performed calculations that have waited for evaluation for a long time, I allow you to politely ask a few calc group members for help via their message walls.

What changes do you suggest otherwise?
 
In general, it would probably be best to change the profiles of Gul'Dan, Gromm, Illidan Stormrage and Arthas to unknown for now. At least until we can get some proper calcs to scale them off of.

As for my calcs, It's only been around a week and a half so it hasn't been that long really.
 
Okay. Although it would be easier for these revisions if we can speed things up a bit.
 
Still, where the assumption that Mannoroth's durability equals his attack potency comes from?I rewatched WC3 cinematic and it looks like Mannaroth deflected Thrall's hammer, he was too slow for Grom which is why he hit him after all.A lot of WoW profiles need upgrade and downgrade.Plus idk why the asumption that character's attack potency necessarily equals his durability?I mean I understand force amplification on Star Wars profiles for example, but even there natural durability was mentioned.In WoD Grom literally killed Mannaroth without any use of fel magic, he was just an orc, there is no way he was island level, plus he was overpowered by Gul'dan who shouldn't be even close to Mannoroth.
 
Can you explain what you mean by "deflected" please? All I see is Mannoroth blocking with his own wing and afterwards we see that a tiny cut has been made from the impact. What exactly did Mannoroth do to deflect Thrall's hammer?

He wasn't too slow for Grom either, Mannoroth put his glaive right in front of the strike and Gromm split it half. You even see the split glaive in demon fall canyon when you visit there.

As for why AP usually scales to DP I believe that it's Newton law of motion? I.e "For every action there is an opposite reaction". Don't quote me on this.

From this we can also deduce that damaging Archimonde was an outlier.
 
using your own force to deflect something?I mean how to explain it in words so I will just give a pic, and example of attack deflection.
Deflect
 
A pretty good example of Newton's third law. Whatever force is required of Piccolo to redirect that attack he is also exerting back upon himself. The fact that he can do that already means that he scales to that attack.
 
Well I don't see Mannaroth blocking it with his own wing though things look a little bit too vague.However even if that was the case it would still be possible deflection whether he did it with hand or wing.But to me it seems like Thrall threw his hammer, Mannoroth deflected it with his hand and taking to damage at all.Because here we are literally talking about two forces colliding.Tiny cut was made from the impact?I don't think any cut was made by Thrall's hammer at that point.Anyway I think that proof of his durability being lower than his attack potency should be enough.I was not sure whether Grom hit the glaive or not, as I said that moment is really vague to me. I don't think law of motion has anything to do with it, I am absolutely sure of it, I can list you a dozen of examples why WoW is unrealistic when it comes to laws of physics specifically but I am sure I don't have to since you already know it.Plus in fiction we know of characters who clearly have much lower attack potency than durability if durability is what you meant by DP.If you are talking about destructive potency them I will agree that's the case in the real world, but in fiction not really, it depends on AoE of the attack.Still Grom is an orc, maybe one of the strongest physically but still an orc with 9-B attack potency before fel, after fel I just don't think it is more than 9-A.He would have been capable of obliterating whole armies if he was really 6-C.As for Mannaroth he actually might be even stronger than 6-C, I am not so sure but you could say that he is at least 6-C.However in WoD cinematic Grom was an orc, no fel influence on him, we know his limits, he was casually, matbe even easily stompted by Gul'dan.And before that when he fought Mannoroth he and Garrosh prepared that device to restrain him, for obvious reason-so that Grom could strike at him, that alone proves that his durability was lower than his attack potency, if Grom was anywhere near his power he wouldn have faced him in h2h combat, but he didn't since they obviously developed a plan to restrain him and then kill him, obviously killing him (durability) was not the problem, facing his power(attack potency) was.Still you could argue that Grom with fel is 6-C even if before fel he wasn't.Note that Grom which fought Mannoroth was weaker than the one which fought Cenarius since he was purified by shamans and mages.Also the source of his power was kind of Mannoroth's blood from the beginning and he never displayed any 6-C, at the beginning of W3 he was even imprisioned by fodder humans.Sorry but I just can't see how is he possibly 6-C even if you prove that he overpowered Mannoroth which I doubt, there are still other facts from the story which contradict that feat and would make it an outlier.Also I don't think Archimonde was not hurt by Thrall, he obviously was and wisps which killed him were definitely nowhere close to 5-C(which is at least level of Archimonde's attack potency). Also I think speed should be added and striking strength, speed should be at least superhuman in my opinion and striking strength logically (in case of Grom and similar character) equal to his full attack potency.

Also I think that Argus should be downgraded to 3-A at least.But that's for another topic.
 
Like, I can sort of understand not seeing Mannoroth's glaive get split in half during his block, it does take a little bit of effort to see it happen, but you don't see the crack in Mannoroth's wing? Really?

Mannoroth Stomped

Again, the way that you described "deflecting" doesn't change the fact that Mannoroth still ends up tanking Thrall's hammer head on. The fact that he came into contact with that hammer one way or the other is proof that he can take the hit, not the other way around. And no, we are not throwing physics out the window. "Fiction" is not an argument.

I also find it rather funny that you'd dismiss physics of all things and yet you can't let go of the idea that Gromm is actually far superior to any other orc in the franchise. Somehow he needs to be biologically comparable to other orcs because they are the same species but the laws of physics don't mean a thing at all. Seems like a double standard to me.

With or without fel magic amping, Gromm with his axe Gorehowl is superior to Mannoroth to the point where he stomps. Again, I can agree that he is weaker without the axe. Mannoroth being restrained doesn't mean anything as it didn't actually do anything, Mannoroth freed himself and still got completely stomped.

Just because Gromm didn't show any feats before killing Cenarius and Mannoroth doesn't mean that these feats get invalidated, that's not how this works. As for the start of Warcraft 3, all of the orcs were suffering from fel withdrawal and were greatly weakened.

Lastly, Archimonde wasn't killed by wisps, they only served as a catalyst to ignite the energies stored within the World Tree Nordrassil.
 
I think that Myriad seems to make sense.
 
Thrall's hammer was deflected and as I said even if Grom broke his glaive he didn't overpower Mannaroth, what makes you think that glaive has island level endurance(durability)?If Mannoroth was holding a wooden stick in the same way and I destroyed it with a swing of the sword would that make me island level?That's literally physics but I won't be using that because it wouldn't make any sense that Mannoroth would be then even using any kind of weapons.Still that doesn't explain other things i mentioned.For example the fact that Grom was caputred by Lordaeron foot soldiers, the fact that WoD Grom needed to restrain Mannaroth to kill him, he was not able to overpower him, the fact that island level chgaracters could destroy whole armies which wasn't the case with Grom who was never capable of doing that, he still needed his army, so even if you are right tht seems like abig outlier to me.And Gul'dan effortlessly defeated Grom, Gul'dan is nowhere near Mannoroth in power, plus most of Grom's power did come from Mannoroth's blood.
 
What makes me think that Mannoroth's own weapon has comparable durability to his AP? Logic. If his own glaive's durability was vastly below Mannoroth's attack potency it would snap in his hand all on it's own, it wouldn't need a Grom to split it for him. Unlike the fallacious example that you raised of you destroying a stick that Mannoroth is holding which has nothing to do with him in the first place.

And no, weapons don't suddenly become useless just because you've reached some arbitrarily chosen level of power. A spear like Mannoroth's provides it's user with increased melee range and the ability to block and parry hits which he'd otherwise have to block with his bare skin. Hence why Mannoroth tries to block Grom's attack in the first place.

Once again there's no such deflecting as you're describing it. Plus, it wasn't any deflection in the first place, Mannoroth blocked Thrall's Doomhammer with his wing:

Thrall's worthy effort

I just remembered that you can slow down the speed of Youtube videos, slow the video down at the 1:05 mark and see for yourself.

Again, Mannoroth freed himself before he died. From what you've said here you've given me the impression that you're misunderstanding how scaling works. A character needs to be capable of hurting another character to scale, they don't need to defeat them in some sumo wrestling match.

As for Grom being taken captive by Alliance forces. I already stated that the orcs who were dealing with Fel withdrawal induced lethargy weren't as strong as they were before and certainly not as strong as when they drank Mannoroth's blood a second time. There's also other factors that need to be taken into account. For example, stamina. Fighting hundreds of soldiers with limited stamina can leave you exhausted long before you defeat them.

Lastly, Gul'Dan being "nowhere near in power" is debatable. Gul'Dan was capable of resurrecting exactly Mannoroth and even granting him more power that he'd ever had before.
 
As I said things are really vague, I might be wrong about things in that cinematic which doesn't mean that you are necessarily right, still there are other things in the story which contradict 6-C Grom.and I mentioned them. 1. Grom is captured by alliance soldiers 2. He was purified by shamans and mages from Mannoroth's blood so he was the same as he was before drinking it the second time. 3. Base Grom could have defeated Mannoroth h2h if he really scaled to him but he didn't.They had to restrict him, if Mannoroth's AP was equal to his durability then fighting him would be no problem but they obviously had to avoid being hit by him, and do not forget base Grom in WoD killed Mannoroth second time, do you claim he is also 6-C?Because that Grom is probably even weaker than the one alliance soldiers captured. 4.Gul'danreanimated Mannoroth, we don't know how much that version scales to live Mannoroth, at least I don't remember anything that would indicate that and I played WoD a long time ago especially Hellfire Citadel so I won't doubt that what you said is true.Still just because he had power to reanimate him it doesn't mean he should scale to him in power.It would be like saying that Kabuto scales to Madara because he reanimated him and made him stronger than he was during his life.The reason I highly doubt that Gul'dan scales to him is also because Gul'dan was just their pawn, Mannoroth was one of the most powerful lieutenants of Archimonde.
 
WoD Mannoroth has no feats to speak of either. The most he did was cause an explosion from his glaive, and the Reanimated Variant of him we only see during a raid encounter, which takes place on a platform on top of a tower. And even then has no feats even remotely close to impressive, but it think it is implied he may be stronger through some of his dialogue. And i still think it is unknown how powerful the explosions from his death are, we just know that Grom cannot survive it. And i believe it is said during the Nagrand quests that Gorehowl is an ancestral axe passed down from past generations and is made of something special as opposed to other weapons.
 
@Galiel

And as I stated, nothing about the cinematic is vague. Hard too see from a single viewing? Yes. Vague? No. I've already proven this whilst debunking every argument against it.

1. If anything, this would be the outlier as well as PIS just so that the game can set up the premise of that one single mission, not Grom killing Mannoroth, twice.

2.The warlords of Draenor cinematic proves that Grom doesn't require the blood of Mannoroth to hurt him.

3.You still don't understand how the tiering system works. Grom doesn't need to defeat Mannoroth in a fencing match or display superior close combat skills. He needs to hurt him, HURT. HIM. And what does Grom do when he lodges an axe in Mannoroth's skull or through his armored plating and into his stomach? Exactly that. Also, take note please, no calculation has been accepted yet. I am not making any claims about specific tiers, I simply mentioned my calcs.

4.I don't understand exactly what you're referencing here even though I do recognize one of the names from Naruto, yet I haven't exactly watched the entire thing. However, we do know that the Mannoroth we fight on top of Hellfire citadel is resurrected to his full might and empowered even further from his adventure guide entry. In phase 3 of Mannoroth's boss fight Gul'Dan returns Mannoroth to full power. In stage four Gul'Dan empowers Mannoroth beyond his normal power. Lastly, even Gul'Dan was disposable to the demons they still considered him the strongest mortal warlock so he's no pushover. He may not be as strong as Mannoroth but he's not far off. Certain not far enough as to not be capable of incapacitating Grom, which he did with magic no less something that Grom has no defense against.

@ThyBadger

The way that you phrased that (I.e "WoD Mannoroth") leads me to believe that you think that that was a different Mannoroth. That was the exact same one, having been resurrected and having time traveled back in time. We already know that Mannoroth scales to Thrall from before, he doesn't need to reaffirm his power with every step that he takes.
 
I don't think Mannoroth is comparable to Gul'Dan in terms of power by any stretch of the imagination, however some of the writing and details seemed to suggest that either it wasn't the exact same Mannoroth OR they had changed something just to make a cool Warlords of Draenor cinematic. I believed they had retconned him as they did Gul'Dan.
 
I would also like to see some profiles made for Alexstrasza, Nozdormu, Ysera, Kalec, Malygos and several others in the near future.
 
I still agree with Myriad.
 
I know how tiering works that's why I am telling you that, if Grom scaled to Mannoroth why didn't he face him?He was just an average orc, they had to restrict him to kill him, if Grom really scaled to Mannoroth he would be able to repel his attacks and easily defeat him.Even Mannoroth implies that he is stronger by asking Grom did he came there to die?They used catapults against him and they restricted him only so that Grom could kill him, if he scaled to Mannoroth all of that would be unnecessary, video implies that Grom is not as strong as Mannoroth.Plus as I said Grom was captured by alliance soldiers and had diff with much weaker oponents than Mannoroth like Gul'dan.
 
Ehh... It's getting quite tiresome to explain the same thing over and over again. Harming someone with ease like Grom did makes him scale to Mannoroth and Gul'Dan infused Mannoroth with more power then he's ever had. Repeating your talking points like that doesn't give them any more validity.
 
Mannoroth scales in both Durability and AP to, at best, a few times above Thrall for taking a serious hit from him with very little damage and knocking him out which is what Grom also scales from. Nothing else points towards a different conclusion for Mannoroth.
 
Grom was just an orc in WoD when he killed Mannoroth, they had to restrain him so that he would get an opening to kill him, if Grom anyhow scaled to Mannoroth there would be no need for rstriction .Even Mannoroth implied that everyone Grom brought he did just to watch him die, meaning that it was obvious that an orc stands no chance, however they had a plan, to restrain him so that Grom could get an opening and kill him, there would be no need for that if Grom was 6-C, he could have tanked Mannoroths attacks or at least survived them however he was not even durable enough to survive Mannoroth's explosion.He was also easily defeated by Gul'dan.To impress him Gul'dan displayed feat of destroying his citadel, obviously Grom was nowhere near that level. At the beginning of WC3 Grom was captured by the alliance solders , then he drank Mannoroth's blood again, after that he was purified and again on the level he was before he drank it the second time, that Grom who was captured by the alliance soldiers killed Mannoroth in WC3.
 
All of that has been debunked already, multiple times. This thread has long reached ad nauseam. Read the AP and Tier pages to see how and why characters are tiered.
 
@Myriadofmemes

Do any changes need to be performed, or should we close this thread?
 
Well, I could do the Gul'Dan related changes and change the character tiers related to his Island feat to Unknown for now. I could also touch up on Grom's profile and change the reasoning for his tier, maybe make a Mannoroth page so that the characters can properly link to each other.
 
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