Golden Sun Downgrade

[Inverted_Tempest]

Okay, so apparently, they are High 4-C based on Iris transforming into a giant sun for her attack. I don't really have a problem with this feat's legitimacy as it's clear she does it in Dark Dawn, but I'm doubting it because of the inconsistency of the general feat.

To put it into perspective, the original reason they were at High 6-C was that of the Meteor summon and due to the lighthouses shaking Weyard. While planet shaking feats are usually Island Level, Weyard has 8 continents and I'm rather sure its size was calculated to be bigger than our planet, which would make the feat more impressive.

The point is, there are two feats in the Island - Large Island Level range that is consistent for them. The High 4-C feat is completely inconsistent with their levels of power and they don't have anything else on that level of display, so the verse should go back to its High 6-C rating.

Two things should happen to Iris...

1.) Don't scale the cast to Iris and leave her own self at High 4-C. This would make sense, to begin with since she's treated as the most powerful summon, meaning it should be unlikely they scale, to begin with. The enemies wouldn't even have comparable durability as they are just flung into the star. Iris keeps her High 4-C while GS becomes "High 6-C, High 4-C via summons".

2.) Iris gets downgraded to High 6-C as well.

The former is more plausible since there should be absolutely no way they even scale to Iris. They can be High 4-C via summons, but High 4-C is wildly inconsistent with their feats while High 6-C shows consistency with multiple feats.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I agree.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Wrong, it was stated that everything was created by the Golden Sun and has statements that the Golden Sun is the most powerful form of Psynergy, so Iris definitely isn't the strongest in the verse. Iris isn't even necessarily treated as the strongest summon, just the best summon. Iris is definitely High 4-C, since she is literally a supernova, and the cast should scale for performing attacks that have large fractions of her power near the end of the game and growing nearer to the power of the Golden Sun.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

He never said Iris is the strongest in the verse, he said she's the most powerful summon. Where is it shown that attacks have large fractions of her power near the end of the game? You've greatly strawmanned one point and didn't even provide evidence for your second refute.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I know he said that Iris is the most powerful summon in the verse, that's literally what I said when I quoted him initially. Their attacks being boosted by Djinn and then them being able to fight and defeat Djinn and tank attacks done by large numbers of Djinn such as when Dullahan uses Charon, these would be large portions of the power of Iris, as her summon is done with 11 Djinn. And you want me to show that Iris is a supernova?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was skeptical about scaling everyone to Iris at first, but then I found other details. One, Iris' feat is High 4-C for sure, she basically goes supernova, and then forms a star when she settles down. Iris' power is equal to 13 Djinns; as it's 9 Mars Djinns and 4 Venus Djinns. A Foe is approximately 24,000 Tenatons and 24,000/13 = 1,846.15384615 Tenatons which is still High 4-C. And even with zero enhancements from Djinns or being enhanced by 8 Djinns, the party is still capable of fighting the main villains such as Karst, Agatio, Doom Dragon, Dullahan, Blados, Chalis, ect.

Also, Iris still appears in Golden Sun 2 I should add. The main bosses can also survive Iris' attack also. And the feat isn't "inconsistent" at all; it's literally an attack the party can use in every battle. Golden Sun scaling is also similar to Final Fantasy scaling I should add; The Final Fantasy VIII cast scale to Ede's feat which is 3-C, despite other summons ranging from Tier 6 to Tier 5 with calcs. Because again, it's a common ability.

I also should at the Tier 6 calcs are heavily lowballed; the 8 Continents are merely just a peak of a plateau in Weyard, which would in turn, translate to being this big. Still, the High 4-C feat is actually consistent for Attack Potency, even if it isn't used for destruction.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

No, he is arguing that no one else should scale. And it is inconsistent because it jumps two tier classifications above any feat they've actually shown.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

But it's still a feat that exists. And saying, it's a two tier jump is not really an argument. There has to be more elaborance. It's not an outlier and it's actually very consistent; because said feat can be performed as many times as the player/party desires. Meaning it's a legit just a trademark ability to create a star/make it go supernova.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I know he said that Iris is the most powerful summon in the verse, that's literally what I said when I quoted him initially. Their attacks being boosted by Djinn and then them being able to fight and defeat Djinn and tank attacks done by large numbers of Djinn such as when Dullahan uses Charon, these would be large portions of the power of Iris, as her summon is done with 11 Djinn. And you want me to show that Iris is a supernova?

Direct quote from you, "Wrong, it was stated that everything was created by the Golden Sun and has statements that the Golden Sun is the most powerful form of Psynergy, so Iris definitely isn't the strongest in the verse." I don't see anywhere you were addressing her as the most powerful summon in this and immedieatly pointed out something never claimed. Do you have scans for the second part? No, I didn't ask for that, I asked for this part, "and the cast should scale for performing attacks that have large fractions of her power near the end of the game and growing nearer to the power of the Golden Sun."

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

But it's still a feat that exists. And saying, it's a two tier jump is not really an argument. There has to be more elaborance. It's not an outlier and it's actually very consistent; because said feat can be performed as many times as the player/party desires. Meaning it's a legit just a trademark ability to create a star/make it go supernova.

You missed the point I was making. I proposed Iris can still be High 4-C, just not the cast themselves. The second one was just saying that if there was a consistency problem that people had with Iris, we could just downgrade her. However, I'm more opposed to that idea and just keeping them at High 4-C via Summoning if anything.

What do you mean "And saying, it's a two tier jump is not really an argument"? If I perform consistent Wall Levels feats and have a random Town Level feat out of nowhere, do we just go by the Town Level one which is the highball and ignore the fact it's inconsistent or do we go for the fact that Wall Level is actually consistent and that Town is an outlier for the showings. It's the same logic being applied here. How can you claim they scale to Iris when she's treated as a penultimate summon (which by itself should imply they can't scale to her as summons are usually above your ownself), but there's also the fact the closest thing that has to feat consistency are a bunch of feats in the Island - Large Island range.

Them being able to spam her doesn't mitigate what I'm saying either. You're trying to use an absurd highball of enemy durability just to scale them. Hell, in the original games, all that happens is she just flings them into the sun at best. There's no proof any enemies or the actual cast would scale to her.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's not an absurd high ball; everyone does 10-C feats all the time in the real world; that doesn't make the few 9-C feats people have outliers. Also, did you read my first post above? No one said fodder enemies have Tier 4 durability; game mechanics are still a thing. But the fact is, individual Djinns would scale due to the fact that what happens when Iris gets summoned is that 13 Djinns fuse together to summon Iris, go supernova, and transform into a star.

A single Djinn is still 1/13th of Iris' power, who is legit a very casual High 4-C. And it being spammable is case in point the definition of it being a consistent feat. Again, Final Fantasy 8 cast summoning Eden is what legit makes them 3-C. We do treat creation feats as legit Attack Potency feats on this site since it's scientifically manipulating the GBE of a star and all that.

And even if you don't want to directly scale the cast to Iris, the fact is Djinn are a fraction of that power, and the cast have battled those Djinns and won. And with being enhanced by 8 Djinns or no Djinns at all, the party are legit able to trade blows with each other and with the main villains, like Karst, Agaito, Saturos, Menardi, Blados, or Dullahan.

So case in point, it's a very casual supernova followed by star creation feat that the party performs regularly, and all low end feats are irrelevant.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I read what you said and you told me that my point was irrelevant as it didn't make sense as an argument. You dismissed with the reasoning you called it flawed and lacking elaboration.

>"It's not an absurd high ball; everyone does 10-C feats all the time in the real world; that doesn't make the few 9-C feats people have outliers."

This is the literal definition of a False Equivalence Fallacy. You're ignoring the huge gap between Large Island and Large Star. There are literally 12 ******* tiers between the two of them while you're taking something with three. With logic this atrocious, outliers don't even exist and someone who has shown Human Level feats and one Universe Level feat should now be Universe Level.

>"A single Djinn is still 1/13th of Iris' power, who is legit a very casual High 4-C. And it being 'spammable' is case in point the definition of it being a consistent feat."

No, it's literally the same feat repeated, it's not consistent for them scaling, just for Iris being at the tier.

Also, where is it stated that the Djinn are 1/13th of Iris's power? Them fusing together =/= Automatically meaning they should be able to receive portions of the power.

This rest of what you said goes off of this, so it isn't relevant to address.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not ignoring it, it's simply how it is. But still, it doesn't matter if it's from Tier 6 to Tier 4, or even Tier 9 to Tier 2. The fact is, it is not inconsistent. Repeating the same feat multiple times is no different than performing multiple feats on the same level. If someone can create/destroy a planet 1000 times in a row, that's borderline a Planet level character. Same here, causing the same supernova repeatedly is the borderline definition of a consistent High 4-C feat.

It's simple, it takes 13 Djinns to summon Iris, so case in point, that's the power of 13 Djinns = a Supernova. For further details, a party of 4 can have the power of 36 Djinns plus their own, and the party of 8 can have the power of 72 Djinns. Again, you didn't comment the statement regarding Eden from Final Fantasy 8, it's literally the same concept.

Also, calm down. And don't use long quotes like that; it serves to make the thread cluttered.

 

[Antvasima]

I am leaning towards agreeing wih Medeus.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Again, you are completely missing the general point. I never said Iris isn't at the level, I said they shouldn't scale just because Iris is the one consistently doing said feat repeatedly, not the actual cast themselves. The points you're making are literally irrelevant to what I'm trying to say. There is already the proposal they just become High 6-C with a High 4-C via summoning rating.

Again, do you have proof that they actually are scaleable even like that? This is the definition of a Burden of Proof. Your entire reasoning is hinging on that, "It only makes logical sense that they get 1/13th of the power." Except that's not how all fusions work. Vegito is an example of this. But by your logic, we should just ignore how his powerup as a transformation works and give 1/2 of his power to both Goku and Vegeta. You see what I'm trying to get at with this? You're acting like every fictional author takes into account that adding on power works like that. It's not how it works and is already incredibly fallacious as I explained. Unless there is an actual statement regarding how Djinn is scaleable to it besides, "Fusing means they should be sharing the strength," you quite literally have no basis for such a claim.

I didn't reply to the Final Fantasy example because I don't know the verse to comment on anything regarding against it. I'm focusing on the lackluster arguments you're giving since that's what you're trying to emphasize on, not the analogy I can't comment on.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

May I ask how is he seeming to be right here? His basis is saying that the Djinn should scale just because they merge to make Iris. He's not provided anything else as to why the Djinn should receive a portion of the power. Fusing to make something different =/= Automatically gaining a portion of the power gained. Authors aren't going to keep powerscaling ideas of "so it's only logical it's his power + his power". Again, someone like Vegito, Ultron Sigma, or Millenniummo would go against such an idea. Unless you're willing to tell me all of your other fusion pages are incorrect to support Medeus, he simply is in the wrong.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Antvasima isn't particularly familiar with Golden Sun, but generally trusts the judgement of other staff members, and/or people who make more sense to him; the latter actually is higher priority.

Anyway, Iris still uses the Psynergy from the party to even perform the High 4-C feat in the first place. Is is the Psynergy of Isaac, Felix, Matthew, or any other party member who fuses the 13 Djinns together to create Isis. And after the supernova and the star feat, it is then the same psynergy being used up that causes Isis to split back into the 13 Djinns. Vegito wasn't really the best example, because that's still two 4-B's or two 3-A's fusing to form another 4-B or 3-A respective to time periods. As a side note, Ashera, Yune, and Ashunera say hi.

Anyway, Charon's High 6-C feat is lowballed, but regardless, it's only a Destructive Capacity feat, which is still a low end. Destructive Capacity =/= Attack Potency can still reach Tier 4; it's also consistent with Sol Blade's feat also I should add. Superman and Doomsday clashing and killing each other was only calc'd at Tier 7, but that's despite two 4-B characters dying. In fact, Superman's low end feats are more common than his Tier 4 feats, but that doesn't stop is Tier 4 feats from being outliers.

Also, We generally scale JRPG characters to their strongest attacks/summons regardless if it's not seen for destruction. Just about all JRPG protagonists canonically have the same striking strength and durability as their magic attacks. Final Fantasy 7 has plenty of summons calc'd at Tier 6, and a few calc'd at 5-A or High 5-A, but everyone's 4-B scaling from Sephiroth's supernova. Kingdom Hearts cast is also Tier 4 based on similar feats. Because some of those summons were either optional bosses fought by the party, or do similar damage to other summons. Meteor gives more damage despite having a lower calc than certain summons, but it should be on par with various summon spells in canon.

Golden Sun is a similar case, Isis isn't offensively the strongest summon, but it's still a legit Tier 4 feat that is done using energy Isaac or any other party member bestowed upon their Djinns. And other Summons like Charon still use a similar level of Psynergy enhancements.

 

[Antvasima]

We also scale the My Little Pony cast from repeatedly moving the Sun, despite that most of their regular feats are far lower.