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God of War: Making Kratos Great Again

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KLOL506

He/Him
VS Battles
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I'mma just start off the thread saying this:

We done ****** up. BIG TIME.

Recently we went with the upgrades of Athena and PoH Kratos to grant them Tier 1. And in that pursuit, we axed out the thing that made Kratos Kratos. His Conceptual Invulnerability. That too without even making another proper CRT to do so, but ultimately that does not matter anymore. We jumped the gun assuming that it had something to do with Tier and physical durability. We of course, found out eventually, that we were horribly wrong, upon going into it further.

So, when Fear Zeus whacks Kratos, Kratos is forced into the remnants of his consciousness (Which basically means nothing because Zeus nuked his soul without which in GoW you effectively cease to exist and there would be nothing to bring back), but the thing is, he would've never outmuscled him with sheer force alone. That entire segment of Kratos having to get to the box in his inner mind, to free himself from the effects of the Great Evils, forgive himself for his sins, overcome his guilt and confront his Demons to lay them to rest and as a result, unleash Hope within him to come back to life, soul restored and all, and then overcome Fear, is the sole determining factor of what GoW3's ending is all about.

It's about Hope overcoming Fear, as Athena herself blatantly puts it, unlike us taking it like Raiden vs Armstrong. This had become far greater than Kratos and Zeus themselves. The purpose of that fight wasn't physical anymore, but rather it was a conceptual battle, between Fear and Hope, where Hope was laughably superior, where Kratos finally attains the power to forgive himself and achieve the one true feeling of expectation that he would see this through, as well as overcoming Fear itself as an idea.

Hell, even Stig Asmussen himself, the director of GoW3, confirms this notion, even going out of his way to establish that Kratos blatantly gained immunity to the evils and their energies and their ability to affect the course of reality the way they did, and that Kratos had to overcome his guilt to obtain Hope to repel Zeus. Actual physical strength was never a factor here.

Another reason is that Zeus himself was never able to make physical contact with Kratos himself, another thing we jumped on. Zeus literally tried to do the same shit he did with Kratos prior, to put Fear into him and destroy him like before, but this time, he never gets to touch Kratos himself, and his efforts are completely nulled by Hope actively protecting Kratos instead, repelling all of Zeus' attacks in the process. This was effectively Fear vs Hope at this point.

Hence, Kratos' Conceptual Invulnerability would irrevocably be restored as a result of the above facts to the old justification plus what Stig himself said. And his Empathic Resistance gets turned to Immunity. Remind me never to wank at the cost of butchering the character ever again.

AND NO, THIS WON'T GET RID OF THE TIER 1 RATINGS. AT ALL. SUFFER.

Agree: 23 - Marvel_Champion_07, Planck69, Emirp sumitpo, KingTempest, LordGriffin1000, Elizhaa, Maverick_Zero_X, Georredannea15, BlastX, Quintessence_PE, Eseseso, RaveeCPN, LuffyRuffy46307, Ped2018, Hasty12345, The_Axiom_of_Virgo, AnimesFreak2, Fixxed, Diamentus, Quantu, BEASTHEART880, omegabronic, Roirr,

Disagree: 1 - LephyrTheRevanchist,

Neutral:
 
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Already talked about it and I agree. It's rather asinine that we didn't even talk about it in a CRT before removing it, that too with a director confirmation of Kratos' newfound immunity to the Evils.
That's a ****-up on my part and me falling to Fear for not wanting to create further chaos on the previous thread.

NO MORE. NOW IT'S ALL OR NOTHING.
 
This gets a rather big agree for me, in the immortal words of Makoto Naegi:"Hope keeps on going" and Nagito Komaeda:"Hope always wins"
 
I edited the OP, not all things got copy-pasted properly first time around. But that's fixed now and we're ready to tango. Please re-evaluate.
 
disagree because this might affect the Arceus fight

I believe "conceptual invulnerability" is a bit of a misnomer. Precisely because the "fight" is not one of physical struggle by itself. It's about acceptance of one self, of overcoming fear by embracing the hope within. It's not that he became literally invulnerable, but that by giving in to hope, he found the greatest strength to fight back, to overpower and go beyond fear, and that's why he completely no-sold and beat Fear Zeus.
 
disagree because this might affect the Arceus fight

I believe "conceptual invulnerability" is a bit of a misnomer. Precisely because the "fight" is not one of physical struggle by itself. It's about acceptance of one self, of overcoming fear by embracing the hope within. It's not that he became literally invulnerable, but that by giving in to hope, he found the greatest strength to fight back, to overpower and go beyond fear, and that's why he completely no-sold and beat Fear Zeus.
Problem is, Hope by itself is a separate entity as much as the Great Evils themselves, they're not just emotions, they're literal abstract entities that shape the Greek reality as they see fit.

It goes a lot further beyond simply acceptance of oneself, Kratos literally had to lose every single thing he cared for and loved in order to get the power back, and then he had to find the power to forgive himself for those losses, it wasn't going to work otherwise.
 
disagree because this might affect the Arceus fight

I believe "conceptual invulnerability" is a bit of a misnomer. Precisely because the "fight" is not one of physical struggle by itself. It's about acceptance of one self, of overcoming fear by embracing the hope within. It's not that he became literally invulnerable, but that by giving in to hope, he found the greatest strength to fight back, to overpower and go beyond fear, and that's why he completely no-sold and beat Fear Zeus.
You're back???!!!!
 
Also, did you also check Stig's argument on the matter?
 
I guess I disagree, since I don't see this as "invulnerability",
I'll take your word for it and add your vote.

but moreso a willpower kind of thing, but on a conceptual level.
It's not really a willpower thing tho, Hope is very much a separate entity much like the Great Evils. If it was solely about willpower, Kratos would've never needed the Power of Hope to beat Zeus, he could've just done the same thing against him like he did with the Fates. It didn't work, at all. Kratos had to be devoid of all will and everything else in the world to unlock it. Pandora herself says so with her quote, and it's a big narrative point by the end of GoW3.
 
I'll take your word for it and add you.


It's not really a willpower thing tho, Hope is very much a separate entity much like the Great Evils. If it was solely about willpower, Kratos would've never needed the Power of Hope to beat Zeus. Kratos had to be devoid of all will and everything else in the world to unlock it. Pandora herself says so with her quote.
The problem I see is that you're thinking strictly on a power scaling sense. When I say willpower, I'm speaking on the idea to stand up once more and give fight. There are numerous expressions to this. Kratos' deal is that his "willpower" is based around rage. But rage ironically holds him back, because he's still feeling fear. The fear of survival, the fear of losing, the fear that comes with his penitence and tortured life. Is when he finally lets all of that go, when he embraces Hope, that he gains another kind of "willpower". Not in a power sense (although this willpower did give him literal power), but in a "I do not fear you anymore" sense.

That's how I see it.
 
I'll take your word for it and add your vote.


It's not really a willpower thing tho, Hope is very much a separate entity much like the Great Evils. If it was solely about willpower, Kratos would've never needed the Power of Hope to beat Zeus, he could've just done the same thing against him like he did with the Fates. It didn't work, at all. Kratos had to be devoid of all will and everything else in the world to unlock it. Pandora herself says so with her quote, and it's a big narrative point by the end of GoW3.
To add more context to this, Athena stated that when the Evils first ran amok, they were drastically altering the reality of the Greek World, including the landscapes and such, prompting Zeus to seal them all. Kratos wasn't just overcoming his own fear, he was overcoming the Great Evil Fear itself.

The problem I see is that you're thinking strictly on a power scaling sense. When I say willpower, I'm speaking on the idea to stand up once more and give fight.
That's really not what's happening here. Kratos was deader than dead because Zeus nuked his soul, without Hope, Kratos would've effectively ceased to be, his physical body an empty husk. He wasn't coming back at all without the Power of Hope.

There are numerous expressions to this. Kratos' deal is that his "willpower" is based around rage. But rage ironically holds him back, because he's still feeling fear.
Again, that's not how the ending goes. Kratos doesn't just overcome his fear, he overpowers the very concept of Fear itself.

The fear of survival, the fear of losing, the fear that comes with his penitence and tortured life. Is when he finally lets all of that go, when he embraces Hope, that he gains another kind of "willpower". Not in a power sense (although this willpower did give him literal power), but in a "I do not fear you anymore" sense.
Again, Kratos wasn't just overpowering his own fears, he was overpowering the Great Evil and Concept of Fear itself that affects the entire reality of Greece in GoW.

That's how I see it.
Noted.
 
I feel like the main issue here is that it's being interpreted as either a metaphorical willpower based feat or an outright physical one, when's its both for the most part.

When Kratos overcomes Fear, he's still actually overcoming an abstract force that predates and is independent of reality as much as he is overcoming his inner demons, with the director confirming as much.

Framing it as a willpower only feat implies that Kratos' can somehow access this level of power and Invulnerability via the appropriate mindset alone, a level at which he can't even be interacted with by a being that previously killed him in body and soul with a casual grapple despite his latent power growth and resistances.

Especially considering that even later on, the developers still consider Hope to be an independent force that Kratos wielded and sacrificed rather than a manifestation of him conquering his dark past.

Course, @LephyrTheRevanchist if this isnt enough then that's alright, I'll add you to disagree but I just needed to get my stance across.

Also, do you think this'll be anything else or not?

Edit: Ninja'd smh
 
I feel like the main issue here is that it's being interpreted as either a metaphorical willpower based feat or an outright physical one, when's its both for the most part.

When Kratos overcomes Fear, he's still actually overcoming an abstract force that predates and is independent of reality as much as he is overcoming his inner demons, with the director confirming as much.

Framing it as a willpower only feat implies that Kratos' can somehow access this level of power and Invulnerability via the appropriate mindset alone, a level at which he can't even be interacted with by a being that previously killed him in body and soul with a casual grapple despite his latent power growth and resistances.

Especially considering that even later on, the developers still consider Hope to be an independent force that Kratos wielded and sacrificed rather than a manifestation of him conquering his dark past.
Pretty much this, like, Athena sealed Hope into the box as a separate entity as a failsafe should the Great Evils ever be released again, and even demanded that Kratos give the power to her instead, which Kratos of course refused, and instead gave it to mankind instead.
 
You're going to make a certain person even angrier than he would be at seeing this thread now.
You mean the little bitch who blocked me on Reddit?

This is what I say to him:

Ibormirkoba The Owl House GIF - Ibormirkoba The Owl House Ibormikroba -  Discover & Share GIFs
 
Framing it as a willpower only feat implies that Kratos' can somehow access this level of power and Invulnerability via the appropriate mindset alone, a level at which he can't even be interacted with by a being that previously killed him in body and soul with a casual grapple despite his latent power growth and resistances.

Especially considering that even later on, the developers still consider Hope to be an independent force that Kratos wielded and sacrificed rather than a manifestation of him conquering his dark past.
The problem as I see it is that you guys seem to believe it has to imply that. I don't believe it so, pretty much.
 
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