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Garou vs Lightning
- Thread starter Spinoirr
- Start date
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Lightning win conditions: Buffing all her offensive and defensive stats a 40 to 70% percent while debuffing Garou´s (and Is impossible to dodge in game) a 40 to 70%, poisoning(again, undodgeable) and I don´t understand why she has "Death" when that is Vanille ultimate move and no character in XIII shares ultimate moves, but if she somehow have it for something I don´t know, then he can just kill him instantly (PD: And if "death" is via Odin, that works depending of the remaining health of his opponent, at 50% health has above average probability)
Garou win conditions: Outskilling hard via feats, using durability negation attacks and evolving
If Lightning summons Odin, he would tank Garou blows, is his role to protect Lightning while she is delivering damage and Odin can resurrect Lightning once
Garou win conditions: Outskilling hard via feats, using durability negation attacks and evolving
If Lightning summons Odin, he would tank Garou blows, is his role to protect Lightning while she is delivering damage and Odin can resurrect Lightning once
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So 4km? Lightning can't attack from that distance according to her profile. Garou uses Extreme Fa Jin and it is gg. As far as I understand, Lightning's only shot is Death manipulation. Other than that, Garou seems to be far more skilled and can make the AP gap obsolete by evolving. Voting for Garou.
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No, it is the person with more range with max being 4km
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Would Lightning's debuffs for him and buffs for herself match his evolution or possibly surpass it? Or is it not reliable enough to be trusted?
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Nah, and he would just evolve to overcome the debuffs anyways. He was able to push through being hit with 3 poison arrows and grow even stronger back when he was just a human.
Garou evolves to surpass her, or just dura negates her and instantly wins. Idk if we can really do any Garou matches ngl, because either the opponent stomps through insta-kill hacks, or Garou just chatches up and durability negates them.
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Are you sure? I don't know how her debuffs work. If they're like Issei who passively halves his opponent's stats every few seconds while buffing his own at the same time that might be able to counter the evolution unless Garou can also evolve to resist the debuffs. I'm not sure, what is it that makes Garou's evolution beat Lightning's debuffs? Can she only use it a small number of times while he can evolve indefinitely, do her buffs and debuffs give smaller stat changes than his evolution, or do his evolutions have the ability to gain resistance to the debuffs?
Edit: With durability negation he has a pretty reliable counter to any defensive use of her buffs and debuffs anyway, but I think it might be important to weigh up whether her buffed attacks while debuffing his defenses would be dangerous for him.
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Oliver_de_jesus
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it's more than the Reactive evolution fight the debuff, basically Lightning reduces Garou's strength by half, but the reactive evolution makes him accelerate until he recovers it
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Final Fantasy XIII statuses
The following is a list of all statuses found in Final Fantasy XIII. The tables contain all the abilities, passive abilities, enemy abilities, items, and techniques that inflict the corresponding statuses. Bravery raises the damage of physical attacks, such as Attack and elemental "-strikes", by...
finalfantasy.fandom.com
List of ff13 status, In ff13-2 the % is different though, So that % would apply to her 4-A key I think
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So if Lightning uses all physical buffs and debuffs she will boost herself 80%, and she will debuff Garou by 90%. Presumably she will keep them on constantly except for brief moments where they need reapplying.Final Fantasy XIII statuses
The following is a list of all statuses found in Final Fantasy XIII. The tables contain all the abilities, passive abilities, enemy abilities, items, and techniques that inflict the corresponding statuses. Bravery raises the damage of physical attacks, such as Attack and elemental "-strikes", by...
So even with just the larger boosts Lightning would have 192.2814 (assuming that comma in the second post telling us her AP is hundreds of thousands of exatons was just an error) exatons, while Garou is debuffed to 6.9 exatons. A 27.866 times AP advantage. Can Garou evolve past that, or blow up her internal organs, quickly enough to avoid being crushed by that?
Note: On the other side, this is a very specific set of buffs and debuffs, kind of reminds me of a set-up sweeper moveset in Pokémon. Can she do them all before Garou puts his hands all over her in a less than sensual way, and is it in character for her to use them this way to set up and smash her enemies into paste with one attack like Gen 4's Extreme Killer Arceus?
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Kazuma_kuwabara
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Ok, I will have to tell you the problems
Lightning can´t learn Daze, but she can reapply debuffs and buffs even if they are still active, extending the duration
Daze is only learned by Sazh, Fang and Snow, in the plus side, I can´t see Garou dodging Thunder/Thundera/Thundaga with a 27 times Ap disadvantage
And the bravery buff are not stackable
Lightning can´t learn Daze, but she can reapply debuffs and buffs even if they are still active, extending the duration
Daze is only learned by Sazh, Fang and Snow, in the plus side, I can´t see Garou dodging Thunder/Thundera/Thundaga with a 27 times Ap disadvantage
And the bravery buff are not stackable
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But she's just lowering his AP, not his durability, so he would still be able to take her attacks, as they would only be 2.7 times his normal AP, (5.4 times with the whole dazed thing, which still can't shot), which his durability still scales to. So that means Garou is just setting back a few AP evolutions, and he'll grow it back up from there. And ooh boy if Lightning fails to keep the deebuff active when Garou gets "back to normal", or even just approaches it via his adaptation... she'll be absolute toast. He'd have a total AP of 690 exatons, and be far faster than her at that point.
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Lightning can debuff everything that is not speed
Omg if she could use slow, I don´t know if she learns Haste though edit: she can, speed advantage for her then, 50% boost
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Understood.
Already had that in mind since otherwise her buffs would finish and Garou would destroy her.
I figured they probably weren't.
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Poison removes about 0.32% of the afflicted target's total health per second, or about 19.2% per minute. Poison alone can remove all of a target's health in just over 5 minutes
Poison in FF13 is busted btw, 5 minutes and you are out
Poison in FF13 is busted btw, 5 minutes and you are out
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I mean but Garou's health is always changing and growing as he takes damage. Also, he's shown resistance to poison before, after getting shot with three poison arrows, and being able to actually grow even stronger from there. And anyways, this is assuming Garou doesn't land his 1 shot attack by charging her down and using durability negation.
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One of the debuffs does indeed specifically drop his resistance to physical attacks down by 89%. It's listed close to the bottom of the linked page.
Still, Garou has an answer in his ability to ignore durability and make her organs explode. If she applies every buff and debuff and casts poison, Garou has a few minutes (unless he can adapt to the poison) to make her organs explode, while also preventing her from hitting him with that AP advantage and shattering him. I can't say for sure who should win here. No-one's answered my question of whether all-out set-up sweeper Lightning is in-character or just a destructive playstyle.
Kazuma_kuwabara
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That falls under pain resistance and I am completely sure that a poison made by magic which grows stronger the more powerful the user is ---> Toxic arrows
Kazuma_kuwabara
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In lightning returns, everyone in this wiki always say "She use buffs and debuffs all the time"
She is alone here, normally in the game they do team compositions and she is favored to be a magic striker user, but if she is alone, she needs to do everything herself and she clearly can do it, to face bosses, the team is always spamming buffs and debuffs, she is gonna start with that with all the experience she has right now
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But will she choose the exact ones she needs? And can she use them all quickly enough to prevent Garou giving her the least sensual massage of her life? If she can boost her attacks and drop his defense then hit him with her best few attacks, with poison in there somewhere, then he should be done unless either his evolution is that fast or he can withstand being smashed to pieces or blasted. But if he can grab her first she's in serious trouble.
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Oliver_de_jesus
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Same question
Kazuma_kuwabara
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By gameplay, in one quick succesion of spells, she could use Haste(counts as 2 spells by ATB logic) , the 2 durability spells and the 2 Ap spells of her buffs, change paradigm, then use 2 durability decrease debuff, 2 decrease ap debuffs and the rest whatever she wants to use that "turns"
All of that non stop, then by gameplay, she must "charge the ATB bar"
Edit: And the rest of buffs is a veil that protects her from statues and protection to elements
The other debuffs are making the enemy prone to getting more status and weakening her elemental resistance
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When charging the ATB gauge, how well can she attack or defend, keeping in mind Garou will likely feel himself get weaker and want to make something inside her blow up as quickly as he can?
Edit: or were attacks included in the other things she can do before recharging?
Kazuma_kuwabara
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The thing is that the ATB is purely gameplay but if we use it, she can do 12 spells/actions in a row, in sentinel she can passively use elude to dodge attacks for example
And I won´t argue about Garou, he can perfectly taps once and say gg, I am just here to give info about Lightning, not even trying to make her win
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How does it fall under pain resistance? He literally overcame arrows meant to injure him and put him to sleep. How else does one gain poison resistance?
Kazuma_kuwabara
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His page says that, I am as confused as you, I thought he had resistance to poison and nope
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Sounds like Garou's poison resistance needs to be clarified here. For the evolution vs the statuses, how much stronger does Garou get per individual evolution and how quickly and readily can he make multiple evolutions?
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He's gone from Tier 6B while fighting Platinum S and Flashy Flash, to 5C when fighting Saitama, over the course of like at most 30 minutes. That's a pretty big highball, seeing as the Platinum S/FF fight lasted less than a single second, and he was going full speed against Saitama/getting faster. Honestly was probably only a couple of minutes.
Edit: The reason the higball is 30 minutes is because of the SC fight but even then, that shouldn't have been too long.
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And for how quick per evolution, he had 3 forms in that time, but each form grows in power on its own, for example First Monster Form Garou was growing faster/stronger against platinum S, and SC.
He evolves really, really quickly. It only took short exchanges with Saitama for him to mutate/change forms. Seems to be that the stronger the enemy, the faster he grows.
He evolves really, really quickly. It only took short exchanges with Saitama for him to mutate/change forms. Seems to be that the stronger the enemy, the faster he grows.
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If that's the case, he should be able to evolve his AP by at least a few hundred times in a short fight. If so then the only issue is if he can survive the first few attacks following her buffs and debuffs making her AP 192 exatons and his AP and durability 6.9 exatons. That is more than enough to one-shot, after all.
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The issue is his durability debuffs would be separate from the AP ones, so she still wouldn't one shot.
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I don't see what you're saying. The durability debuff will reduce his durability by 89%, reducing it to 7.5 exatons, while she buffs her own attacks to 192 exatons. What about that is not a one shot just because the AP buffs and durability debuffs are two seperate stat modifications?
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Garou went from a megaton range to fighting Rover who is 30 megatons. I am pretty sure Garou can survive enough to evolve. Not to mention, Garou has several buffs of his own. He was able to stomp a team of A-class after using Abandonment despite previously being pushed. He can also use Awakening Breath. Bomb is stated to be superior to Bang by Murata and yet, after using that technique Bang was able to match Garou who previously outclassed Bomb. Exploding Heart Release Fist is a technique strong enough that Bomb believed Bang can defeat Garou by using it despite being overpowered. MCGSF is supposed to make this look like a joke.
It can be argued that Garou was already using all of this when performing his 5-C feat but I severely doubt it.
All of this combined still wouldn't close the 27x gap by the wiki's standards but it would help immensely.
There are still a few things to note.
Garou should be upscaling his own feat by an unknown margin since it was just an aftereffect of his attack. Most of the energy was probably absorbed by Saitama.
Garou's WSRFS can redirect attacks from those who can one-shot him even when unperfected.
Even with the AP gap, Lightning can't hit Garou because of the massive skill gap.
Last of all, as you mentioned Lightning should use this specific combo before Garou kills her. That's very unlikely.
Wouldn't that actually help Garou? 5 minutes is a lot of times considering the speed they are fighting at. It will only trigger his evolution.
It is not clarified in the series but his growth seems to be exponential. That's to say depending on how monsterized he is, he can evolve faster and get even bigger buffs.
For instance, his first "evolution" against Genos changed pretty much nothing and took longest among all of his transformations.
Later on, he one-shot Royal Ripper while being slightly superior to him previously. That was after staying unconcsious for long time and was injured bad enough to be mistaken for dead by others.
During his fights against Orochi and Rover, he starts to adapt mid-fight and shows an expectional growth despite being outclassed.
His next fight was against Darkshine. His casual attack was able to shatter Garou's skeleton. Garou proceeded to stomp him after that attack. Don't forget that Darkshine's durability far surpasses his own AP.
First-form monster Garou went from 7-B to low 6-B just by waking up and having his mask slightly cracked/destroyed.
Against Saitama, he got stronger by merely being angered. He seemingly believed he can easily win against Saitama even though Saitama was casually stomping his earlier form.
Then he gets his winged form off-screen. Infamous "Tougher than a mountain" line comes from here. And his 5-C feat comes right after this during the next transformation which also was off-screen.
So it should be reasonable to say that Garou's this form can evolve fastest and can instantly catch up with Lightning
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