Ganondorf Powers and Abilities Revamp

[Dust_Collector]

Well this took me a while, but I've given Ganondorf the P&A section he deserves. No ability is unexplained nor lacks a link, got references for all of it since those are being enforced, and got it all neatly organized into 11 tabs.

So here's the sandbox for the changes, there's some other stuff like adding some more images for Calamity Ganons new forms from AOC, and rearranging his notable attacks slightly so that his Calamity Ganon attacks are in the Calamity Ganon tabber (I have no idea why I put those in his normal techniques back when I first added them), but the big thing here is obviously the Powers and Abilities. There's a lot to go through with it since Nintendo can't go 2 minutes without Ganon showing off 5 new magical abilities to be added to his large arsenal, let me know if there's any issues with some of his abilities, yada yada yada.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me

 

[SamanPatou]

You did a great job, this was really needed.

However, I have to points to raise up

Aren't Ocarina Ganondorf's spheres made of electricity instead of light? When they hit Link, you can hear a crackling sound and yellow sparks run over his body.

I wouldn't scale Ganondorf's powers to Zant's, bestowing powers onto others doesn't necessarily mean you can use them. Zant might have received raw magic power that he converted into his own abilities, or he already had some of those powers and now their effects are stronger, and so on with the possibilities. (This would affect Size Manip, Ice Manip, part of Power Nullification, part of Corruption

Same for the Phantoms, just because he created them it doesn't mean he automatically has their powers (this would affect Duplication, Immersion, part of Illusion Creation )

Being able to see invisible beings is Enhanced Senses, not ESP. I would also call that possibly, as Link casts a shadow despite being invisible, and Ganon might have followed it with his normal vision.

Are the sages confirmed to be intangible, or it's just due to their appearance? I'm also iffy about Deconstruction, it might just be the way they die.

Chaos manipulation is a bit flimsy (as the very power itself), especially because the image shows his minions ravaging the land, and his leftower powers might include curses and stuff that didn't disappear with him.

About the first resistances, he wasn't chained to the Mirror itself, but to a wall that was turned into a portal by said Mirror, which is shown to be right in front of him.

I think the first two links in the Healing explanation are missing the timestamp

I don't really see Life Manipulation in the links you attached, I feel like that's more Reality Warping.

Where is it stated that was the Triforce's power that made Link able to withstand the effects of the Mask, instead of his own mental strength?

Soul Calamity Ganon's large size should be type 1, no castle in the world reaches 100 meters and Hyrule's should be assumed to be so tall unless something proves it.

Incomplete Physical form Ganon is nowhere near 13 meters, which is the minimum requirement for Large size type 1. Type 0 works, though.

Same for the Dark Beast form, he doesn't 100 meters.


I will not comment on Age of Calamity-related stuff, I tried to not read it because I want to avoid spoilers, I have yet to play the game.

 

[Dust_Collector]

You did a great job, this was really needed.

It really was, it annoyed me seeing half of his abilities just having nothing justifying them. I wanna do the same thing with Bowser at some point.

Aren't Ocarina Ganondorf's spheres made of electricity instead of light? When they hit Link, you can hear a crackling sound and yellow sparks run over his body.

That's what I initially thought but the encyclopedia states they're made of light. Thought I put the image that said that on the profile but I've noticed that I forgot to do that.

I wouldn't scale Ganondorf's powers to Zant's, bestowing powers onto others doesn't necessarily mean you can use them. Zant might have received raw magic power that he converted into his own abilities, or he already had some of those powers and now their effects are stronger, and so on with the possibilities. (This would affect Size Manip, Ice Manip, part of Power Nullification, part of Corruption

When Link and Midna defeat Zant they notice that Midna doesn't change back to her normal form and regain her powers, Zant then stating that it was because it was the magic of Ganondorf that made her into an imp and stripped her of her powers and not his, so he didn't develop powers like that in another way after getting his powers bestowed by Ganon, and nowhere is it implied Zant coverted Ganons raw magic into different abilities or having those powers and having them amped up, they rather consistently treat anything he does that isn't twilight magic as just being Ganons magic, so at least the Transmutation and (Part) of the Power Nullification can stay, I won't mind removing the others though. Since I'd be getting rid of Ice Manipulation for his standard abilities then I'll add it to his Calamity Ganon form (Didn't add it to him initally since it was redundant).

I still think it's kinda weird that granting someone the power to, say, change their own size but being not able to do so yourself is weird, obviously there's cases where that it is like that but I think in general it's kinda odd. It is what it is so I'm not that fussed about it.

Same for the Phantoms, just because he created them it doesn't mean he automatically has their powers (this would affect Duplication, Immersion, part of Illusion Creation )

His created Phantoms are meant to just be weaker versions of himself, but again if our standards don't allow it then I am fine with removing these abilities.

Being able to see invisible beings is Enhanced Senses, not ESP. I would also call that possibly, as Link casts a shadow despite being invisible, and Ganon might have followed it with his normal vision.

Gonna be honest I thought I removed ESP a few days ago while editing the sandbox preciously because of the shadow Link casts lol. I'm fine with it being possibly Enhanced Senses or just getting rid of it entirely.

Are the sages confirmed to be intangible, or it's just due to their appearance? I'm also iffy about Deconstruction, it might just be the way they die.

Same deal as ESP, I thought I already removed it because I couldn't find anything suggesting they're incorporeal other than assuming that way because of their somewhat ghostly appearance. I was meant to replace it with Possibly Non-Physical Interaction for the same reason as Ghirahim, normal bottles trapping ghosts and all that. For Deconstruction I couldn't find anything that suggests that's just how they die.

Chaos manipulation is a bit flimsy (as the very power itself), especially because the image shows his minions ravaging the land, and his leftower powers might include curses and stuff that didn't disappear with him.

Nice to see someone else think the power is flimsy Yeah the quote isn't exactly specific, just that somehow his "heart" is causing chaos and disorder across Hyrule. I've always been on the fence about if this is just really bad Chaos Manipulation or simply not anything at all. I'd be fine with it being a possibly or removing it.

About the first resistances, he wasn't chained to the Mirror itself, but to a wall that was turned into a portal by said Mirror, which is shown to be right in front of him.

I...

have no idea how I didn't notice that. oops. Yeah in that case he probably shouldn't have those resistances.

I think the first two links in the Healing explanation are missing the timestamp

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll add the correct timestamps in a little bit, Here's the first link with the correct timestamp and here's the second one for reference.

I don't really see Life Manipulation in the links you attached, I feel like that's more Reality Warping.

Fair enough

Where is it stated that was the Triforce's power that made Link able to withstand the effects of the Mask, instead of his own mental strength?

Gonna be honest, I'm not sure. I think we've alwatys assumed Links resistance to mind manipulation was due to the TOC blocking evil magic (Sometimes) so i just kinda went with it, but I don't think there's anything that points to it being the reason he resisted it as opposed to his own mental strength so I'd be fine with removing this.

Soul Calamity Ganon's large size should be type 1, no castle in the world reaches 100 meters and Hyrule's should be assumed to be so tall unless something proves it.

Incomplete Physical form Ganon is nowhere near 13 meters, which is the minimum requirement for Large size type 1. Type 0 works, though.

Same for the Dark Beast form, he doesn't 100 meters.

Oh did we change the heights for the sizes? Could've sworn the requirements were smaller a while ago. In that case yeah I'll make the soul and dark beast forms Type 1 and his incomplete physical form type 0.

I will not comment on Age of Calamity-related stuff, I tried to not read it because I want to avoid spoilers, I have yet to play the game.

Besides some... odd choices with the story that I and many others aren't entirely fond of, it's a great game so I hope you enjoy it when you eventually get to it.

Thanks for all the feedback, really appreciate it.

 

[SamanPatou]

When Link and Midna defeat Zant they notice that Midna doesn't change back to her normal form and regain her powers, Zant then stating that it was because it was the magic of Ganondorf that made her into an imp and stripped her of her powers and not his, so he didn't develop powers like that in another way after getting his powers bestowed by Ganon, and nowhere is it implied Zant coverted Ganons raw magic into different abilities or having those powers and having them amped up, they rather consistently treat anything he does that isn't twilight magic as just being Ganons magic, so at least the Transmutation and (Part) of the Power Nullification can stay, I won't mind removing the others though. Since I'd be getting rid of Ice Manipulation for his standard abilities then I'll add it to his Calamity Ganon form (Didn't add it to him initally since it was redundant).

Fair enough, Powernull and Transmutation can stay, as Zant directly states it Ganon's doing, but the others go against the rules established for Power Bestowal, which dictates evidences that the one who granted a power can also use it by themselves.

His created Phantoms are meant to just be weaker versions of himself, but again if our standards don't allow it then I am fine with removing these abilities.

I don't think we have standards regarding the creation of living beings, but I'd dare to assume they are the same as Power Bestowal, since creating something/someone doesn't mean you can do the same things it does.

Gonna be honest I thought I removed ESP a few days ago while editing the sandbox preciously because of the shadow Link casts lol. I'm fine with it being possibly Enhanced Senses or just getting rid of it entirely..

Possibly Enhanced Senses should work.

Nice to see someone else think the power is flimsy Yeah the quote isn't exactly specific, just that somehow his "heart" is causing chaos and disorder across Hyrule. I've always been on the fence about if this is just really bad Chaos Manipulation or simply not anything at all. I'd be fine with it being a possibly or removing it.

Imho, Chaos manipulation should be removed entirely. (I refer to Ganon, but I wouldn't mind deleting it from the wiki)

For Deconstruction I couldn't find anything that suggests that's just how they die.

My problem is that they are atypical lifeforms, and in the series we have many supernatural beings that explode, disappear and burn away upon being defeated, but we don't assume Link or anyone else who kills them has the power to destroy them in such a way.
Here we see Ganondorf tackling them and grabbing their neck. The fact they disintegrade might be similar to the aforementioned creatures.

Thanks for all the feedback, really appreciate it.

No problem, I also thank you for doing this giant and necessary work.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Imho, Chaos manipulation should be removed entirely. (I refer to Ganon, but I wouldn't mind deleting it from the wiki)

Yeah I'm down for removing it from his profile and from the wiki entirely

My problem is that they are atypical lifeforms, and in the series we have many supernatural beings that explode, disappear and burn away upon being defeated, but we don't assume Link or anyone else who kills them has the power to destroy them in such a way.
Here we see Ganondorf tackling them and grabbing their neck. The fact they disintegrade might be similar to the aforementioned creatures.

True, but I think Ganon has more going for him in this instance since it's a cutscene and they explictly disintregrate into dust while with other creatures they just kinda blow up for no reason in gameplay. I'd be down to make this Possibly Deconstruction.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm still rather iffy on Deconstruction, but possibly can work.

 

[SamanPatou]

What about Ganondorf's invulnerability to anything that isn't holy? Was that actually supported by something or it's just an urban legend turned into public domain knowledge?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Thank god, this was very much needed. Will take a closer look later, but looks pretty good so far from what I gathered.

 

[Dust_Collector]

What about Ganondorf's invulnerability to anything that isn't holy? Was that actually supported by something or it's just an urban legend turned into public domain knowledge?

From what I can tell holy weapons and magic are needed to kill / seal him but he isn't actually invulnerable to anything non-holy. In the original Zelda he can be hurt by Link using non-holy swords, and in Ocarina of Time he can be harmed by non-holy weapons (You only need to use a holy weapon to finish him off). The closet to him being invulnerable is a scene in Wind Waker where Link can't harm him with a depowered Master Sword and Ganon says that he cannot be defeated by a blade that doesn't sparkle with the power to repel evil, which isn't really invulnerability, just that he's too durable to be harmed by something so much weaker than himself.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Made the needed alterations to the Sandbox such as removing some powers and resistances, adding some possibilities and all that. Also added Ice Manipulation to Calamity Ganon (Didn't have in that tabber initially because he already had it listed in his base abilities).

 

[Dust_Collector]

Gonna quickly bump this before I head to bed.

 

[Theglassman12]

Looks pretty good

 

[Dust_Collector]

BTW found a feat where Ganon shows duplication without the need for scaling to his phantom so can I add it back into his abilities?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

BTW found a feat where Ganon shows duplication without the need for scaling to his phantom so can I add it back into his abilities?

Confirmo, estoy de acuerdo

Spoiler: S u a v e

Can confirm, I agree

 

[Dust_Collector]

Confirmo, estoy de acuerdo

excelente

Jokes aside, with the changes I made to the sandbox based on Samans suggestions, as well as having several people including those knowledgeable on Zelda and staff members (And both) does anyone have any objections to me updating Ganons profile?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

excelente

Jokes aside, with the changes I made to the sandbox based on Samans suggestions, as well as having several people including those knowledgeable on Zelda and staff members (And both) does anyone have any objections to me updating Ganons profile?

I'm currently writing some stuff, give me a moment. Have a couple of objections indeed.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I'm currently writing some stuff, give me a moment. Have a couple of objections indeed.

Well I don't want to hear them

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"Possibly Enhanced Senses (Possibly saw Link when he was invisible)"
- So, this one honestly looks more like a coincidence, really. Not clear enough imo if he truly followed Link. Would require more testing. Can someone do this fight and confirm if Ganon always follows Link's movement 100% of the time when invisible?

"Should likely be capable of physically interacting with ghosts as even a normal bottle in the Zelda series can physically trap and contain spirits"
- Ganon seriously doesn't have any showing physically interacting with ghosts? That's weird. In any case, disagree with this entirely. Even if we consider it an ability of a bottle (and not Link's, as we had listed on his own profile), there's absolutely 0 reason Ganon would scale. Not even possibly, imo.

"Possibly Deconstruction (Possibly disintegrated the Sage of Water, although it's unclear if this is simply how beings like the sages die)"
- Not enough info to go off, so disagree with this as well. maybe he punched him so hard he went poof

"Afterimage Creation"
- As you can see here, the first video has an issue with the framerate, that's why it looks like that. this can happen with very old videos, as YT changed that couple of times. The second one can't seem to find one that shows if it's an issue with frame rate, so that one may be legit. Would prefer more thorough search, but I guess we can give him the ability for now.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well I don't want to hear them

no u

 

[Dust_Collector]

So, this one honestly looks more like a coincidence, really. Not clear enough imo if he truly followed Link. Would require more testing. Can someone do this fight and confirm if Ganon always follows Link's movement 100% of the time when invisible?

I can confirm after a quick test that yeah he follows Links movement 100% of the time even when invisible. I'll use the switch capture feature to get a clip of it that's clearer than the video.

"Should likely be capable of physically interacting with ghosts as even a normal bottle in the Zelda series can physically trap and contain spirits"
- Ganon seriously doesn't have any showing physically interacting with ghosts? That's weird. In any case, disagree with this entirely. Even if we consider it an ability of a bottle (and not Link's, as we had listed on his own profile), there's absolutely 0 reason Ganon would scale. Not even possibly, imo.

Yeah it's real weird that Ganon has never physically interacted with any kind of spirit or intangible being. I'm not bothered if this is a possibly or shouldn't count at all so I'd be fine with removing it entirely.

"Possibly Deconstruction (Possibly disintegrated the Sage of Water, although it's unclear if this is simply how beings like the sages die)"
- Not enough info to go off, so disagree with this as well. maybe he punched him so hard he went poof

k

"Afterimage Creation"
- As you can see here, the first video has an issue with the framerate, that's why it looks like that. this can happen with very old videos, as YT changed that couple of times. The second one can't seem to find one that shows if it's an issue with frame rate, so that one may be legit. Would prefer more thorough search, but I guess we can give him the ability for now.

Can't blame you for thinking it's the framerate issues with the video, but I can confirm that he actually leaves behind afterimages as he teleports in the game. Like with the possibly enhanced senses I'll record a clip from my switch for better clarity.

no u

**** i can't counter that

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hey, if he follows him 100% of the time, why even the possibly? The shadow thing honestly wouldn't be an argument for me, as it's there for the player mostly.

Will wait the better video then.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Here's the clip where in two different attack cycles Ganon aims and fires directly at Link and also tilts his head to look at him while charging his fireballs. Just in case it's asked, Ganon looking around in all directions just before he teleports is just something he does even if Link is visible so he's not looking around for Link confused.

Unfortunately the Switch doesn't record the afterimages. They show up fine in the game normally but in the recorded clip Ganon just awkwardly floats before disappearing. There's this video from earlier this year that shows the afterimages as he teleports. Since it's only from a few months ago it shouldn't have any framerate issues that would mess with the way his teleport looks.

 

[SamanPatou]

If we have to nuke Enhanced Senses, then Link's shadow is fundamental. It was indeed put there to help the player, but that doesn't change the fact the shadow is there, and Ganon can see it too.

Yes, that's weird for Ganon to not have any evidence for NPI, but I agree we can't give it just after the bottles doing that. Btw, this affects Ghirahim, who has NPI for the same reason, right?

Neutral for the afterimages, I agree if they exist, I disagree if they don't.


Also, give him Broadway Force because Cucuì Ganon is a masterpiece, I'm glad it's online once again.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yes, that's weird for Ganon to not have any evidence for NPI, but I agree we can't give it just after the bottles doing that. Btw, this affects Ghirahim, who has NPI for the same reason, right?

Yeah Ghirahim has it for the same reason so he'd lose it to.

Also, give him Broadway Force because Cucuì Ganon is a masterpiece, I'm glad it's online once again.

I was so happy when the reupload showed up on my feed, it was a crime the original had to be muted even if Ganondorf singing and dancing with complete silence was funny.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

If we have to nuke Enhanced Senses, then Link's shadow is fundamental. It was indeed put there to help the player, but that doesn't change the fact the shadow is there, and Ganon can see it too.

If the others feel that the shadow being there really changes everything, so be it. But I personally disagree.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Unfortunately the Switch doesn't record the afterimages. They show up fine in the game normally but in the recorded clip Ganon just awkwardly floats before disappearing. There's this video from earlier this year that shows the afterimages as he teleports. Since it's only from a few months ago it shouldn't have any framerate issues that would mess with the way his teleport looks.

Actually, in that same video, sometimes the afterimages appear, sometimes they don't. So indeed, the frame rate issue remains. I think it also has to do with the recording software. (I think they appear mostly when the particles from Link's sword beams are on screen, though will take a closer look in a bit)

Funny enough, Chuggaconroy talked about that in his Link's Awakening playthrough, as I seem to remember. So I don't know.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

(I think they appear mostly when the particles from Link's sword beams are on screen, though will take a closer look in a bit)

Nah, I'm wrong about this. It doesn't matter whether the beams are on screen or not. It just random if the afterimages appear or not.

Are they random when playing normally or appear all the time?

 

[Dust_Collector]

They appear all the time.

 

[SamanPatou]

If the others feel that the shadow being there really changes everything, so be it. But I personally disagree.

I mean, if Ganon can see the shadow too, then he just need to be good enough at tracking it with his normal sight, and I don't think there's anything pointing out to the shadow being visible only to the player.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, even if we discount ALttP, the Oracle games do show them consistently all the time, so it can stay anyway.

With that out of the way, don't have any other issue ayy.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean, if Ganon can see the shadow too, then he just need to be good enough at tracking it with his normal sight, and I don't think there's anything pointing out to the shadow being visible only to the player.

But that's the thing. I don't believe Ganon is seeing a shadow, because it's there for gameplay purposes imo.

 

[SamanPatou]

Ok, but do we have proof of that? It's there for gameplay reasons, but what says the developers didn't want to turn it into an actual, canon weakness? Being invisible and still casting a shadow isn't that absurd.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Agree to disagree, ngl.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I think leaving it as possibly enhanced senses works best, doing so accounts for the shadow Link casts being / not being game mechanics.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So we leaving enhance senses as a possibly?

 

[Theglassman12]

Shouldnt the deconstruction be in ToP Ganondorf since the triforce was active at that scene?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Shouldnt the deconstruction be in ToP Ganondorf since the triforce was active at that scene?

Yeah probably.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So is much more input needed?

Based on the last few comments I'd need to get rid of Non-Physical Interaction, move possibly Deconstruction to his TOP key, and I think we're leaving enhanced senses in as a possibility?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Seems like it