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Frieza vs Cell

Robo432343

Robo432343

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Frieza (DBS Anime)

Frieza (フリーザ, Furīza?) is the leader of the Planet Trade Organization and the son of King Cold, who, unopposed, ruled over the majority of the Seventh Universe for decades. Thanks to his mutant and hybrid status, Frieza was born with an abnormally high power level. He never needed to train a day...
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vs

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Cell (Toei)

Cell is the ultimate creation of Dr. Gero, created from the DNA of the greatest fighters to ever visit Earth and tasked with the simple goal of killing Son Goku. However, to reach his perfect form and full power, Cell must absorb Gero's other biomechanical creations; the Androids, 17 and 18...
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SBA
SPEED =
 
I'm not so sure where Cell scales. His profile states he confidently challenges Goku even knowing he can beat Kid Buu so:
Kid Buu ~ SS3 Goku > (200x) > Buuhan > (2x) > Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan = Buutenks > (2x) > SS3 Gotenks >/= Super Buu > (400x) > Base Gotenks = 2-C​

That'd put Kid Buu and SS3 Goku at around 320,000x 2-C potentially. With Cell scaling to or above Kid Buu.

In terms of GT Goku:
Super 17 SS1 Goku > Majuub > Baby Saga SS3 Goku > (400x) > Baby Saga Base Goku > SS1 Gohan > (50x) > Base Gohan > SS1 Goten > (50x> Base Goten > Rildo > Kid Buu​

That would put SS1 Goku in the Super 17 Saga at 320 billion times which would then put Base Goku at 6.4 billion times.

So Cell would scale anywhere from 320,000x to 6.4 billion times 3 2-C.

As for Freeza, he would be 6 2-C in the Broly arc so we can't use that version. The strongest version we can use is his key in the Tournament of Power:
Golden Freeza = Goku Blue (Pre-UIS) > (50x) > SSG Goku = Hit (Early ToP) = SSB Goku (Post-Black) ~ SSR Black ~ SSB Vegeta (Post-HTC) > (8,000,000x) > Base Black > SSB Vegeta (Pre-HTC) > (8,000,000x) > Base Vegeta (Pre-HTC) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = 2x 3 2-C​

That would make ToP Golden Freeza 6.4 quadrillion times 2-C (50 x 8,000,000 x 8,000,000 x 2) which is an obvious stomp. And Base Freeza should at least scale to Base Goku/Vegeta who should be around 800,000,000x 2-C which would mean Cell stomps Base Freeza with his high end 6.4 billion times value.

And if we say RoF Freeza he would only be around 16,000,000x 2-C in Golden.

tl;dr
ToP Golden Freeza = 6.4 quadrillion > Highend Cell = 6.4 billion > ToP Base Freeza = 800 million > RoF Golden Freeza = 16 million > Lowend Cell = 320,000 > RoF Base Freeza = 2

So there isn't a single key here where the two of them are even remotely close. EIther Freeza stomps or Cell stomps.

Oh and something to muddy it further. IIRC DBZ Kai was accepted as canon to the DBS Anime so that may impact the scaling for Freeza a lot. Potentially upgrading him to the level that ToP Base Freeza would stomp Highend Cell.
 
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CryoTheMayo said:
I'm not so sure where Cell scales. His profile states he confidently challenges Goku even knowing he can beat Kid Buu so:
Kid Buu ~ SS3 Goku > (200x) > Buuhan > (2x) > Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan = Buutenks > (2x) > SS3 Gotenks >/= Super Buu > (400x) > Base Gotenks = 2-C​

That'd put Kid Buu and SS3 Goku at around 320,000x 2-C potentially. With Cell scaling to or above Kid Buu.

In terms of GT Goku:
Super 17 SS1 Goku > Majuub > Baby Saga SS3 Goku > (400x) > Baby Saga Base Goku > SS1 Gohan > (50x) > Base Gohan > SS1 Goten > (50x> Base Goten > Rildo > Kid Buu​

That would put SS1 Goku in the Super 17 Saga at 320 billion times which would then put Base Goku at 6.4 billion times.

So Cell would scale anywhere from 320,000x to 6.4 billion times 3 2-C.

As for Freeza, he would be 6 2-C in the Broly arc so we can't use that version. The strongest version we can use is his key in the Tournament of Power:
Golden Freeza = Goku Blue (Pre-UIS) > (50x) > SSG Goku = Hit (Early ToP) = SSB Goku (Post-Black) ~ SSR Black ~ SSB Vegeta (Post-HTC) > (8,000,000x) > Base Black > SSB Vegeta (Pre-HTC) > (8,000,000x) > Base Vegeta (Pre-HTC) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = 2x 3 2-C​

That would make ToP Golden Freeza 6.4 quadrillion times 2-C (50 x 8,000,000 x 8,000,000 x 2) which is an obvious stomp. And Base Freeza should at least scale to Base Goku/Vegeta who should be around 800,000,000x 2-C which would mean Cell stomps Base Freeza with his high end 6.4 billion times value.

And if we say RoF Freeza he would only be around 16,000,000x 2-C in Golden.

tl;dr
ToP Golden Freeza = 6.4 quadrillion > Highend Cell = 6.4 billion > ToP Base Freeza = 800 million > RoF Golden Freeza = 16 million > Lowend Cell = 320,000 > RoF Base Freeza = 2

So there isn't a single key here where the two of them are even remotely close. EIther Freeza stomps or Cell stomps.

Oh and something to muddy it further. IIRC DBZ Kai was accepted as canon to the DBS Anime so that may impact the scaling for Freeza a lot. Potentially upgrading him to the level that ToP Base Freeza would stomp Highend Cell.
Click to expand...
To clarify if the Kai anime is canon to the DBS Anime then that should make Goku and co 2-C even before Super Saiyan God because the Buuhan feat happens in Kai and I believe Kid Buu is explicitly the strongest Buu in Kai.

SS3 Goku (Kai) = Kid Buu (Kai) = 1,600 > Buuhan = 2-C > (2x) > Ultimate Gohan = Buutenks > (2x) > SS3 Gotenks >/= Super Buu > (400x) > Base Gotenks = Baseline

In short if we just say Base Goku is 4x 2-C before BoG he would be 1,280,000x 2-C after adapting to the power of SSG and breaking his limits.

DBZ Kai scale:
Base Goku/Vegeta (ToP) = Base Freeza (ToP) = 512 trillion times > Golden Freeza (RoF) > SSB Goku (RoF) = 10.24 trillion times (8,000,000x Base) > Highend Cell = 6.4 billion > Base Goku (RoF) > Base Freeza > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = 1,280,000x > Lowend Cell = 320,000x

tl;dr
If applying a rough DBZ Kai scale to the DBS Anime, Lowend Cell would be stomped by every key Freeza has. Highend Cell would only stomp RoF Base Freeza and would be stomped by every other Freeza key.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
As for Freeza, he would be 6 2-C in the Broly arc so we can't use that version. The strongest version we can use is his key in the Tournament of Power:
Golden Freeza = Goku Blue (Pre-UIS) > (50x) > SSG Goku = Hit (Early ToP) = SSB Goku (Post-Black) ~ SSR Black ~ SSB Vegeta (Post-HTC) > (8,000,000x) > Base Black > SSB Vegeta (Pre-HTC) > (8,000,000x) > Base Vegeta (Pre-HTC) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = 2x 3 2-C​
Click to expand...
Where does this value come from?
 
RedReaper616 said:
Where does this value come from?
Click to expand...
Base Goku Black is scaled above Pre-HTC SSB Vegeta.
Post-HTC SSB Vegeta scales above SSR Black
SSGSS is 8,000,000x Base (SSG x 50 or 160,000 x 50)
SSR is on par with SSGSS as a transformation

So:
Post-HTC SSB Vegeta > SSR Black > (8,000,000x) > Base Black > Pre-HTC SSB Vegeta
 
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Ah. Also, Cell scaling to Kid GT Goku is bunk. Goku didn't struggle at all to handle him even aftering they trained for decades.

Also, you’re missing a 100x multiplier in the Cell scaling chain from the fact Goku was nerfed to 1% when he matched Ultimate Gohan. So 3.2 Million?
 
RedReaper616 said:
Ah. Also, Cell scaling to Kid GT Goku is bunk. Goku didn't struggle at all to handle him even aftering they trained for decades.

Also, you’re missing a 100x multiplier in the Cell scaling chain from the fact Goku was nerfed to 1% when he matched Ultimate Gohan. So 3.2 Million?
Click to expand...
I haven't seen anything about Goku being nerfed to 1% but I'm not well-versed on Toei scaling. Regardless even if Cell gets scaled up to 3.2 million he'd just stomp RoF Base Freeza and be stomped by any other Freeza key.

And before anyone asks or suggests it. No. Manga Freeza wouldn't be any better. Toei Cell would stomp RoF Freeza but be stomped by every other key. So it's the same scenario. And that's after the manga scaling got neutered by Goku losing his SSG scaling Post-BoG.

So there is no key where Freeza vs Cell is fair.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I haven't seen anything about Goku being nerfed to 1% but I'm not well-versed on Toei scaling. Regardless even if Cell gets scaled up to 3.2 million he'd just stomp RoF Base Freeza and be stomped by any other Freeza key.
Click to expand...
It's from the Daizenshuu. Specifically Goku and Vegeta are nerfed to less than 1/100th when they are Inside Buu, and they match their respective opponents who are specifically “equal to the originals.” They win, too. The only reason they were on the backfoot is because their opponents were living Thought-Forms/Memories who were immortal and can’t be killed/beaten.
 
Yeah, I gave up on DBS vs GT 2-C matchups. Best to just use lower 4-C/High 4-C DBZ manga vs Toei Anime DBZ where its more fair.
 
RedReaper616 said:
Ah. Also, Cell scaling to Kid GT Goku is bunk. Goku didn't struggle at all to handle him even aftering they trained for decades.

Also, you’re missing a 100x multiplier in the Cell scaling chain from the fact Goku was nerfed to 1% when he matched Ultimate Gohan. So 3.2 Million?
Click to expand...
The filler part in Buu was accepted that the copies of Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, and SSJ3 gotenks scaled to their full power, so no
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Kid Buu ~ SS3 Goku > (200x) > Buuhan > (2x) > Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan = Buutenks > (2x) > SS3 Gotenks >/= Super Buu > (400x) > Base Gotenks = 2-C​
Click to expand...
2-C definitely doesn't start with Base Gotenks. Buuhan is the one who performed the feat, so even Gohan himself would only be like 1/2 Baseline 2-C (3 Uni).
 
TegamiBachi25 said:
The filler part in Buu was accepted that the copies of Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, and SSJ3 gotenks scaled to their full power, so no
Click to expand...
Yes. I said this outright earlier. My statement on Goku being at only 1/100th of his capacity when he matched them does not contradict this. In fact, it is the REASON they're getting the 100x multiplier.
 
I can see it not being accepted tho
A x100 multiplier is pretty huge and I don't believe there's anything in the anime that indicates they were weaker
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
I can see it not being accepted tho
A x100 multiplier is pretty huge and I don't believe there's anything in the anime that indicates they were weaker
Click to expand...
This is stated quite explicitly in the Daizenshuu Anime Guide for the Inside Buu episodes. Whilst inside him, their power was weakened to 1/100th. I'll make a thread on it later if I need to so we can get everything lined up if necessary.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
2-C definitely doesn't start with Base Gotenks. Buuhan is the one who performed the feat, so even Gohan himself would only be like 1/2 Baseline 2-C (3 Uni).
Click to expand...
Buuhan to Base Gotenks can be calculated using finite values.

Buuhan > (2x) > Buutenks > (2x) > SS3 Gotenks > (400x) > Base Gotenks

SS3 Gotenks is 1/4th the power of Buuhan, who is 2-C.
Base Gotenks is 1/400th of SS3 Gotenks, who is 2-C
Being finitely below a 2-C character would still be 2-C AFAIK.

I guess you can argue Buuhan = 1x 2-C so Base Gotenks would be 0.000625x 2-C but given we're talking about GT vs Super this wouldn't change much.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Buuhan to Base Gotenks can be calculated using finite values.

Buuhan > (2x) > Buutenks > (2x) > SS3 Gotenks > (400x) > Base Gotenks

SS3 Gotenks is 1/4th the power of Buuhan, who is 2-C.
Base Gotenks is 1/400th of SS3 Gotenks, who is 2-C
Being finitely below a 2-C character would still be 2-C AFAIK.

I guess you can argue Buuhan = 1x 2-C so Base Gotenks would be 0.000625x 2-C but given we're talking about GT vs Super this wouldn't change much.
Click to expand...
I never said they weren't 2-C.
But there's definitely a difference between SSJG Goku's full 2-C and Gotenks 0.000625x 2-C.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
I never said they weren't 2-C.
But there's definitely a difference between SSJG Goku's full 2-C and Gotenks 0.000625x 2-C.
Click to expand...
Daima states Goku has unparalleled power at the start of every episode. That's only 9 months after Buu. That would mean Goku has superior power to Ultimate Gohan. Which scales him above SS3 Gotenks. So SS3 Goku would be over 0.000625x 2-C and Base Goku would be over 0.0000015625x

0.0000015625 x 160,000 = 0.25x 2-C for SSG Goku

Keep in mind that via your own logic that scale would apply to GT as well because Buuhan is where 2-C begins. So Toei SS3 Gotenks would also be 0.000625x 2-C there. Base Goku is scaled to Ultimate Gohan-level so he'd be 0.000625x 2-C, 0.0625x 2-C if you take the 1% thing.

0.000625 x 400 = 0.25x 2-C and 100x that would be 25x 2-C

So in short:

SSG Goku (RoF) = 40,000x 2-C > Toei SS3 Goku = 0.25 to 25x 2-C >/= Base Goku (Post-BoG) = SSG Goku = 0.25x 2-C > Toei Base Goku = 0.000625x 2-C to 0.0625x 2-C >/= Daima Goku = 0.000625x 2-C

So via that scale SSG Goku in BoG wouldn't even hit baseline 2-C. RoF Base Freeza and GT Cell would be around equal.

The problem with that is that SSG Goku is obviously scaled above baseline 2-C. So that would mean Goku just grew stronger since Daima or God is a higher multiplier than we have it rated as. So it'd be something like:

SSG Goku (Post-BoG) = 160,000x 2-C > Toei SS3 Goku = 0.25 to 25x 2-C ? Base Freeza > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = SSG Goku (BoG) = 1x 2-C

So again same sort of problem. If we take the 1% statement from the guidebook then GT Cell could be 25x 2-C but that'd stomp Base Freeza and Golden Freeza would stomp Cell. And if we ignore the 1% statement then Base Freeza would stomp GT Cell.
 
Last edited:
CryoTheMayo said:
Daima states Goku has unparalleled power at the start of every episode. That's only 9 months after Buu. That would mean Goku has superior power to Ultimate Gohan. Which scales him above SS3 Gotenks. So SS3 Goku would be over 0.000625x 2-C.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure DBS also has similar statements, although one could argue that Gohan just got weaker. He does do that sometimes.

Btw the 0.000625x 2-C is Base Gotenks, SSJ3 Gotenks is a quarter of baseline 2-C and Gohan is its half.
So the scaling chain for Toei (And I guess Kai?) would be
Kid Buu ~ SS3 Goku > (200x) > Buuhan (2x) > Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan = 1/2 of 2-C​
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Pretty sure DBS also has similar statements, although one could argue that Gohan just got weaker. He does do that sometimes.

Btw the 0.000625x 2-C is Base Gotenks, SSJ3 Gotenks is a quarter of baseline 2-C and Gohan is its half.
So the scaling chain for Toei (And I guess Kai?) would be
Kid Buu ~ SS3 Goku > (200x) > Buuhan (2x) > Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan = 1/2 of 2-C​
Click to expand...
Ah, right. I'm doing this over several day stretches so I forgot how I was scaling it before. Thanks for the correction. As far as I can tell the scene where Base Goku fights Ultimate Gohan inside of Buu isn't in Kai. Also just remembered BoG Goku was scaled as growing stronger even after losing SSG. The blog even shows that SS1 Goku was stated to surpass his previous SSG and then later on his base form surpasses his SS1 form via destroying the dense energy ball in his base form. Which you can see in Episode 14 (12 minute mark).

Result:
Base Freeza (RoF) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = 10,000x 2-C > SS1 Goku (Post-SSG) > SSG Goku (BoG) = GT Cell ~ SS3 Goku (Toei) = 200x 2-C > Base Goku (Toei) = SS3 Goku (Daima) = 0.5x 2-C > Base Goku (Daima)= 0.00125x 2-C > Base Gotenks = 0.000625x 2-C

So via that scale we'd conclude that Base Freeza (RoF) would be 50x stronger than GT Cell and would stomp him. If we give GT Cell the 1% statement with Toei Goku then GT Cell would scale to 20,000x 2-C, which would be a stomp for Cell.

So we return to the same result. Either RoF Base Freeza stomps or GT Cell stomps. Golden Freeza isn't even part of the conversation as he would stomp regardless.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Ah, right. I'm doing this over several day stretches so I forgot how I was scaling it before. Thanks for the correction. As far as I can tell the scene where Base Goku fights Ultimate Gohan inside of Buu isn't in Kai. Also just remembered BoG Goku was scaled as growing stronger even after losing SSG. The blog even shows that SS1 Goku was stated to surpass his previous SSG and then later on his base form surpasses his SS1 form via destroying the dense energy ball in his base form. Which you can see in Episode 14 (12 minute mark).

Result:
Base Freeza (RoF) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = 10,000x 2-C > SS1 Goku (Post-SSG) > SSG Goku (BoG) = GT Cell ~ SS3 Goku (Toei) = 200x 2-C > Base Goku (Toei) = SS3 Goku (Daima) = 0.5x 2-C > Base Goku (Daima)= 0.00125x 2-C > Base Gotenks = 0.000625x 2-C

So via that scale we'd conclude that Base Freeza (RoF) would be 50x stronger than GT Cell and would stomp him. If we give GT Cell the 1% statement with Toei Goku then GT Cell would scale to 20,000x 2-C, which would be a stomp for Cell.

So we return to the same result. Either RoF Base Freeza stomps or GT Cell stomps. Golden Freeza isn't even part of the conversation as he would stomp regardless.
Click to expand...
Isn't Daima DB canon and thus not using Toei scaling here? Unless if there's a CRT going on I have no clue about
 
TegamiBachi25 said:
Isn't Daima DB canon and thus not using Toei scaling here? Unless if there's a CRT going on I have no clue about
Click to expand...
DBZ Kai was accepted as canon to the DBS Anime. So there are currently three continuities on the wiki:
Manga -> Daima -> DBS Manga
Manga (Pre-Z) -> Kai -> Daima -> DBS Anime
Toei DB-> Toei Z -> GT

The Kai Anime has the Buuhan feat so that means these characters are 2-C before the DBS Anime. And because Daima states Goku is the strongest, he scales above Ultimate Gohan in SS3 at least before the events of Super.

I'm not sure whether or not Daima would be accepted as canon to the Toei anime but it might be fine to treat it as such.
 
Last edited:
CryoTheMayo said:
DBZ Kai was accepted as canon to the DBS Anime. So there are currently three continuities on the wiki:
Manga -> Daima -> DBS Manga
Manga (Pre-Z) -> Kai -> Daima -> DBS Anime
Toei DB-> Toei Z -> GT

The Kai Anime has the Buuhan feat so that means these characters are 2-C before the DBS Anime. And because Daima states Goku is the strongest, he scales above Ultimate Gohan in SS3 at least before the events of Super.

I'm not sure whether or not Daima would be accepted as canon to the Toei anime but it might be fine to treat it as such.
Click to expand...
Shit. I have a feeling this is going to affect scaling a lot in a future CRT... That, and if Daima introduces Toeiverse stuff...
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Ah, right. I'm doing this over several day stretches so I forgot how I was scaling it before. Thanks for the correction. As far as I can tell the scene where Base Goku fights Ultimate Gohan inside of Buu isn't in Kai. Also just remembered BoG Goku was scaled as growing stronger even after losing SSG. The blog even shows that SS1 Goku was stated to surpass his previous SSG and then later on his base form surpasses his SS1 form via destroying the dense energy ball in his base form. Which you can see in Episode 14 (12 minute mark).

Result:
Base Freeza (RoF) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) = 10,000x 2-C > SS1 Goku (Post-SSG) > SSG Goku (BoG) = GT Cell ~ SS3 Goku (Toei) = 200x 2-C > Base Goku (Toei) = SS3 Goku (Daima) = 0.5x 2-C > Base Goku (Daima)= 0.00125x 2-C > Base Gotenks = 0.000625x 2-C

So via that scale we'd conclude that Base Freeza (RoF) would be 50x stronger than GT Cell and would stomp him. If we give GT Cell the 1% statement with Toei Goku then GT Cell would scale to 20,000x 2-C, which would be a stomp for Cell.

So we return to the same result. Either RoF Base Freeza stomps or GT Cell stomps. Golden Freeza isn't even part of the conversation as he would stomp regardless.
Click to expand...
My rationale for the Base Goku scaling is wrong. I don't know why I thought that when I wrote it (sleep deprivation?) as Base Goku would simply be scaled above his previous SS1 value.

The scaling chain presented on the wiki and in the story is:
Base Goku (RoF) > Base Freeza (RoF) > Base Goku (Post-BoG) > SS1 Goku (Post-SSG) = 400x 2-C > (2x) > SSG Goku (BoG) = 200x 2-C​

So Base Freeza would scale somewhere significantly past 400x 2-C due to Goku training about a year under Whis after becoming 400x 2-C in Base.

I think Freeza still stomps Cell regardless because his stats would be significantly over twice his and Freeza's skill level is far higher than it was on Namek. It should be very easy for him to obliterate Cell with something like a Death Ball. Like he attempted against Goku. Similar gaps in power are also usually depicted as curbstomps in-universe.

The only chance Cell has here is via Zenkai boosting but as I'm suggesting Freeza is simply too fast and strong for Cell to realistically survive Freeza vaporising him. And the other scale still stands, if Cell has the 1% logic applied he'd be 20,000x 2-C and would stomp.

So same result. Either Freeza stomps or Cell stomps. No in-between.
 
Last edited:
Nierre said:
do we just accept Daima as canon to both DBS' until proven otherwise? Or is there another reason?
Click to expand...
Both. Super was Toriyama's official continuation of Dragon Ball and Daima neatly slots in between the Buu Saga and Battle of Gods. The only 'contradiction' thus far is Kibito Kai defusing but we can't use that for anything as they could just refuse for whatever reason. On top of that Daima references concepts not introduced until Super such as the existence of other universes and the designation of 'Universe 7'

To put it another way. The reason Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero is titled that way is because Toriyama forgot that the Super branding was even a thing. He just treated it simply as Dragon Ball. So in his mind it would just be 'Dragon Ball Super Hero'

So yeah. Daima being non-canon to DBS is something that would have to be proven first. Which isn't possible until Daima has ended or a statement is made by someone like Iyoku or Toyotaro about it being non-canon.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Both. Super was Toriyama's official continuation of Dragon Ball and Daima neatly slots in between the Buu Saga and Battle of Gods. The only 'contradiction' thus far is Kibito Kai defusing but we can't use that for anything as they could just refuse for whatever reason. On top of that Daima references concepts not introduced until Super such as the existence of other universes and the designation of 'Universe 7'

To put it another way. The reason Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero is titled that way is because Toriyama forgot that the Super branding was even a thing. He just treated it simply as Dragon Ball. So in his mind it would just be 'Dragon Ball Super Hero'

So yeah. Daima being non-canon to DBS is something that would have to be proven first. Which isn't possible until Daima has ended or a statement is made by someone like Iyoku or Toyotaro about it being non-canon.
Click to expand...
What if I contact the spirit of Toriyama and he tells me it isn't canon
 
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