Fixing Kāma (BORUTO)

[Nierre]

I've made a couple mistakes on Boruto and Kawaki's pages + there's been new stuff that I was made aware thanks to @Shadowbokunohero.

For starters, I forgot to add Boruto's Otsutsuki Form* onto his Kara Saga key. Momoshiki's manifested twice, once against Boro and the other against Kawaki and Sasuke after Isshiki's defeat. In terms of where he should scale, I was talking to some people and we ended up with two options:

Option 1
Downscaling from Sasuke

While Momoshiki tries to take in Kawaki, Sasuke interferes and attacks him. Despite being greatly damaged after fighting Isshiki, losing an eye, and being low on chakra, Sasuke is still able to pressure and make Momoshiki yell in pain from Lightning Release. Normally, Momoshiki would have ways around Sasuke's Jutsu since he can absorb them, but he chose not to as to not awake Boruto. He opted to catch Sasuke off guard twice, once to take out his eye, and the other with a Vanishing Rasengan, with the latter defeating Sasuke.


So it'd look something like this: "... Small Planet level (433 Exatons) with Kāma Progression* (Fought off and greatly damaged Sasuke who was low on chakra and fatigued, with a Vanishing Rasengan)"

Option 2
Scaling far higher than before

After Team 7 fought Boro, Momoshiki manifested and easily defeated Rampage Mode Boro. With almost no chakra left, Momoshiki was able to blow off Boro's arm and send him flying with a kick. Once he absorbed some of Naruto's chakra, Momoshiki was able to make quick work of Boro and destroy him with a Rasengan. Currently, Boro scales to Tier 6, and so does Boruto, so Momoshiki would also be Tier 6 in the Kara Saga.

For support, after Baryon Mode Naruto and Kawaki defeat Isshiki, Momoshiki manifests again and very easily fights off Kawaki. Kawaki isn't able to tag Momoshiki at all and Momoshiki soundly overwhelms him, while not trying to kill him, because he wants to feed Kawaki to the Ten Tails. Kawaki is also Tier 6, just like Boro and Boruto.

Another point that @Shadowbokunohero brought up was Sasuke's performance against Urashiki in the anime. We've seen how Sasuke performs when he has very, very little chakra left. After interrupting Sakura's healing, Sakura stated that he's in no condition to move, yet despite this due to sheer willpower, Sasuke's able to briefly fend off against Transformed Urashiki, using Fire Dragon Jutsu, Amaterasu, and even Kirin. Despite all this he was sill inferior to Urashiki and needed support from Naruto, Boruto and Jiraiya to defeat him. Urashiki is Tier 6. Sasuke who's far more injured and no Rinnegan, should be worse off than his fight against Urashiki, so Tier 6 may be logical for Momoshiki in the Kara Saga.

So it'd look something like this: "...far higher with Kāma Progression* (Soundly defeated Rampage Mode Boro, despite having almost no chakra left, and easily beat up Kawaki)"


Option 1: @MinatoSparkle, @Testarossa002

Option 2: @UchihaSlayer96, @Godernet


Option 3 (Thanks to @Samlex1234):
Momoshiki scaling above Sasuke

After absorbing Naruto's chakra, Momoshiki was able to beat the shit out of Boro and destroy him with a Rasengan. In the anime, Delta infers after seeing the damage from said Rasengan, that Momoshiki is a greater force than Sasuke. Although she's never interacted with Sasuke, it's likely that she's operating under the assumption that Sasuke is comparable with Naruto, considering the whole ninja world considers Sasuke as Naruto's equal in power.

"...Small Planet level with Kāma Progression (After absorbing Naruto's chakra, Momoshiki continued to toss around Boro before obliterating him with a Rasengan. After seeing the damage dealt by Momoshiki, Delta noted that Boro was defeated by a "significantly greater force" than Sasuke)

---

Next up is a mistake I made on Kawaki's profile.

Right now, his profile says "Small Planet level with Kāma's True Essence (Capable of fighting Kāma's True Essence Boruto), higher with Ōtsutsuki Form (Capable of fighting Ōtsutsuki Form Boruto...)"

The problem here is, Kawaki didn't fight True Essence Boruto. He just fought Kāma Boruto. We know this because not only are the markings different on Boruto's face, but he doesn't have his Byakugan active, which we know denotes that Boruto's tapping into more of Momoshiki's power, which is in line with how Code defines "True Essence".

The reason why Boruto's markings on his hand are different when he fights Kawaki versus before when he first fought Code, is because after he died and got resuscitated by Momoshiki, Boruto stated that he's able to control the power better, without the worry of Momoshiki taking over, long-term.
This new and improved Kāma Boruto doesn't have any new feats or anything, but seeing how it seems like he has better control over it, it should be stronger than before. So Kawaki's Kāma form will be downgraded to higher.

"Island level, possibly Country level, higher with Kāma (Capable of fighting controlled Kāma Boruto), Small Planet level with Kāma Progression* (Capable of fighting Ōtsutsuki Form Boruto...)"

---

Finally, Kāma Progression aka Ōtsutsuki Form:

Kāma Progression is the name that all of the marketing is using across all mediums for the horned forms:

https://naruto-official.com/en/news/01_1900
https://naruto-official.com/en/news/01_1849
https://shinobi-striker.fandom.com/wiki/Boruto_Uzumaki_(Karma_Progression)
https://shinobi-striker.fandom.com/wiki/Kawaki_(Karma_Progression)

So we should change it to that.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think downscaling makes more sense since this Sasuke still had had tomoe in his Rinnegan (before it was stabbed), unlike when he fought Shin who damaged SPSM Naruto (scaling that's currently accepted on Shin's profile)

The second change is fine, although something I've wondered for a while is why Kāma is used rather than Karma

 

[Nierre]

the Japanese name i prefer it personally but idrc either way

I'll add your vote for option 1

 

[Testarossa002]

jigen nominated Boro to guard naruto with the expectation that Sasuke would try to retrieve him. This means that a version of Boro should at least be in the same ball park as the god tiers
I'm fine with option 1
also fine with the Kawaki section

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm fine with all of this. Option 2 seems best to me personally.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'm fine with all of this. Option 2 seems best to me personally.

 

[Godernet]

I choose Option 3 when we find that one Novel thing

until then Option 2

 

[Samlex1234]

I've made a couple of mistakes on Boruto and Kawaki's pages + there's been new stuff that I was made aware thanks to @Shadowbokunohero.

For starters, I forgot to add Boruto's Otsutsuki Form* onto his Kara Saga key. Momoshiki's manifested twice, once against Boro and the other against Kawaki and Sasuke after Isshiki's defeat. In terms of where he should scale, I was talking to some people and we ended up with two options:

Option 1
Downscaling from Sasuke

While Momoshiki tries to take in Kawaki, Sasuke interferes and attacks him. Despite being greatly damaged after fighting Isshiki, losing an eye, and being low on chakra, Sasuke is still able to pressure and make Momoshiki yell in pain from Lightning Release. Normally, Momoshiki would have ways around Sasuke's Jutsu since he can absorb them, but he chose not to as to not awake Boruto. He opted to catch Sasuke off guard twice, once to take out his eye, and the other with a Vanishing Rasengan, with the latter defeating Sasuke.


So it'd look something like this: "... Small Planet level (433 Exatons) with Kāma Progression* (Fought off and greatly damaged Sasuke who was low on chakra and fatigued, with a Vanishing Rasengan)"

Option 2
Scaling far higher than before

After Team 7 fought Boro, Momoshiki manifested and easily defeated Rampage Mode Boro. With almost no chakra left, Momoshiki was able to blow off Boro's arm and send him flying with a kick. Once he absorbed some of Naruto's chakra, Momoshiki was able to make quick work of Boro and destroy him with a Rasengan. Currently, Boro scales to Tier 6, and so does Boruto, so Momoshiki would also be Tier 6 in the Kara Saga.

For support, after Baryon Mode Naruto and Kawaki defeat Isshiki, Momoshiki manifests again and very easily fights off Kawaki. Kawaki isn't able to tag Momoshiki at all and Momoshiki soundly overwhelms him, while not trying to kill him, because he wants to feed Kawaki to the Ten Tails. Kawaki is also Tier 6, just like Boro and Boruto.

Another point that @Shadowbokunohero brought up was Sasuke's performance against Urashiki in the anime. We've seen how Sasuke performs when he has very, very little chakra left. After interrupting Sakura's healing, Sakura stated that he's in no condition to move, yet despite this due to sheer willpower, Sasuke's able to briefly fend off against Transformed Urashiki, using Fire Dragon Jutsu, Amaterasu, and even Kirin. Despite all this he was sill inferior to Urashiki and needed support from Naruto, Boruto and Jiraiya to defeat him. Urashiki is Tier 6. Sasuke who's far more injured and no Rinnegan, should be worse off than his fight against Urashiki, so Tier 6 may be logical for Momoshiki in the Kara Saga.

So it'd look something like this: "...far higher with Kāma Progression* (Soundly defeated Rampage Mode Boro, despite having almost no chakra left, and easily beat up Kawaki)"


Option 1: @MinatoSparkle

Option 2:

---

Next up is a mistake I made on Kawaki's profile.

Right now, his profile says "Small Planet level with Kāma's True Essence (Capable of fighting Kāma's True Essence Boruto), higher with Ōtsutsuki Form (Capable of fighting Ōtsutsuki Form Boruto...)"

The problem here is, Kawaki didn't fight True Essence Boruto. He just fought Kāma Boruto. We know this because not only are the markings different on Boruto's face, but he doesn't have his Byakugan active, which we know denotes that Boruto's tapping into more of Momoshiki's power, which is in line with how Code defines "True Essence".

The reason why Boruto's markings on his hand are different when he fights Kawaki versus before when he first fought Code, is because after he died and got resuscitated by Momoshiki, Boruto stated that he's able to control the power better, without the worry of Momoshiki taking over, long-term.
This new and improved Kāma Boruto doesn't have any new feats or anything, but seeing how it seems like he has better control over it, it should be stronger than before. So Kawaki's Kāma form will be downgraded to higher.

"Island level, possibly Country level, higher with Kāma (Capable of fighting controlled Kāma Boruto), Small Planet level with Kāma Progression* (Capable of fighting Ōtsutsuki Form Boruto...)"

---

Finally, Kāma Progression aka Ōtsutsuki Form:

Kāma Progression is the name that all of the marketing is using across all mediums for the horned forms:

https://naruto-official.com/en/news/01_1900
https://naruto-official.com/en/news/01_1849
https://shinobi-striker.fandom.com/wiki/Boruto_Uzumaki_(Karma_Progression)
https://shinobi-striker.fandom.com/wiki/Kawaki_(Karma_Progression)

So we should change it to that.

In regards to Sasuke and Momoshiki, I want to emphasize that simply having the Rinnegan doesn’t automatically mean you are able to use its ocular powers. For example, during the final valley fight, Sasuke possessed the Rinnegan before his final clash with Nard, but it was practically useless. Despite having enough energy to draw the trapped Tailed Beasts earlier, Sasuke couldn’t perform the same feat during that battle, highlighting that his chakra was very low. Chakra is still required to activate the Rinnegan’s abilities, thus the Rinnegan would essentially function as a regular eye until he regained enough chakra to harness its power.
As for Urashiki, while he has notable feats against many Tier 5 characters and lesser tiers too, he is an odd character who seems to scale to everyone, I don’t think we should use him as a standard, Just my opinion, though.

Additionally, in the anime, when Delta checked on Sasuke, she mentioned to Jigen that the force that defeated Boro was far more powerful than Sasuke, implying that Borushiki > Full-power Sasuke. If Borushiki’s energy output is considered greater than Sasuke’s, I don’t think Momo should be significantly downscaled to tier 6 which is in no way in comparison to Low 5B.



Momoshiki tanked two attacks: one from Sasuke’s sword and the other from Sasuke’s Chidori-amped sword. His claim that he wouldn’t walk away unharmed is primarily because Sasuke has figured out that Momoshiki can’t absorb anything, which could be detrimental to him. Sasuke’s ability to harm him becomes a real threat if Momoshiki is careless, especially considering Sasuke has durability-negating techniques like Amaterasu and Chidori Stream at his disposal.

 

[Nierre]

As for Urashiki, while he has notable feats against many Tier 5 characters and lesser tiers too, he is an odd character who seems to scale to everyone, I don’t think we should use him as a standard, Just my opinion, though.

Yeah you're right. It's more so support of support. Urashiki's a weird character so I understand the sentiment.

Additionally, in the anime, when Delta checked on Sasuke, she mentioned to Jigen that the force that defeated Boro was far more powerful than Sasuke, implying that Borushiki > Full-power Sasuke. If Borushiki’s energy output is considered greater than Sasuke’s, I don’t think Momo should be significantly downscaled to tier 6 which is in no way in comparison to Low 5B.

Actually could you find that? That's a really good statement. I don't remember that at all.

Momoshiki tanked two attacks: one from Sasuke’s sword and the other from Sasuke’s Chidori-amped sword. His claim that he wouldn’t walk away unharmed is primarily because Sasuke has figured out that Momoshiki can’t absorb anything, which could be detrimental to him. Sasuke’s ability to harm him becomes a real threat if Momoshiki is careless, especially considering Sasuke has durability-negating techniques like Amaterasu and Chidori Stream at his disposal.

So you're saying (in conjunction to Delta's statement) Momoshiki should scale to Sasuke instead of downscaling? Hmm

 

[Samlex1234]

Actually, could you find that? That's a really good statement. I don't remember that at all.


So you're saying (in conjunction with Delta's statement) that Momoshiki should scale to Sasuke instead of downscaling? Hmm

Episode 210 00:05


I don't mind him downscaling from full-power Sasuke a bit in the no-rinnegan Sasuke fight but honestly, I don't think you need to scale both Sasuke and Momo as both of them had less access to their normal chakra reserves and only scaled above Kawaki. However, against Boro, I believe that once he had absorbed Naruto’s chakra he was able to refill Boruto’s chakra tank hence boruto regaining his consciousness immediately after Momo was done, Thus the Momo that fought Boro scales to the Momo that fought True essence Kawaki because in both cases, he was using Boruto’s chakra reserves.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

is delta really a reliable source to gauge sasuke's power?

 

[Gokukid2005]

is delta really a reliable source to gauge sasuke's power?

Yh she hasn't seen him before but she might be working under the assumption that Sasuke = Naruto who she did fight and is gauging the "full force" on the rasengan Naruto used to defeat her so I'm 50/50

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

yeah but they also thought Boro would be strong enough to fight off sasuke,hence why he was guarding the place.

 

[Samlex1234]

yeah but they also thought Boro would be strong enough to fight off sasuke,hence why he was guarding the place.

Code also thought Boro could have performed better against Naruto despite knowing how strong Delta was. I interpret his statement to include Boro’s hax abilities, such as Natural Disease Manipulation, poison manipulation etc which can bypass durability if the target lacks resistance. However, everything went in Team 7’s favour, they had someone with resistance who could create antibodies, as well as Kawaki, who knew about the core.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Code also thought Boro could have performed better against Naruto despite knowing how strong Delta was. I

yeah but Code is a troglodyte ,his the same person who was told that eida and daemon vastly surpass Jigen and yet still thought he could kill them if they didnt give him the information he wanted, he also thought that naruto and sasuke post nerf could be trouble,despite thinking himself superior to delta who could H2H a stronger naruto.

also as amado confirmed, Code has no sensory abilities whatsoever so his likely even less reliable than delta.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Delta has a support that is good enough to track vanishing rasengan. Coupled with the fact that she fought naruto I don't think it's out of her capabilities to guage momo.

 

[Nierre]

I agree with Sam on this point

I don't mind him downscaling from full-power Sasuke a bit in the no-rinnegan Sasuke fight but honestly, I don't think you need to scale both Sasuke and Momo as both of them had less access to their normal chakra reserves and only scaled above Kawaki. However, against Boro, I believe that once he had absorbed Naruto’s chakra he was able to refill Boruto’s chakra tank hence boruto regaining his consciousness immediately after Momo was done, Thus the Momo that fought Boro scales to the Momo that fought True essence Kawaki because in both cases, he was using Boruto’s chakra reserves.

The Momo that fought Sasuke was weakened/nerfed so just like we do with Sasuke we're not going to make a key for when he's weakened, we're gonna give him a key for when he's most optimal, which in Momoshiki's case, is against Code/Kawaki and against Boro AFTER he absorbs Naruto's chakra, because that's when he's able to fill his chakra tank and work at near full capacity before Boruto woke up

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

id agree with that.

 

[Nierre]

Okay cool... time to edit that whole section in the OP

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

rando question, this only appears in the anime only but borushiki can break through shika's shadow, should we give him possibly limited/full on resistance to paralysis

 

[Nierre]

Option 3 (Thanks to @Samlex1234):
Momoshiki scaling above Sasuke

After absorbing Naruto's chakra, Momoshiki was able to beat the shit out of Boro and destroy him with a Rasengan. In the anime, Delta infers after seeing the damage from said Rasengan, that Momoshiki is a greater force than Sasuke. Although she's never interacted with Sasuke, it's likely that she's operating under the assumption that Sasuke is comparable with Naruto, considering the whole ninja world considers Sasuke as Naruto's equal in power.

"...Small Planet level with Kāma Progression (After absorbing Naruto's chakra, Momoshiki continued to toss around Boro before obliterating him with a Rasengan. After seeing the damage dealt by Momoshiki, Delta noted that Boro was defeated by a "significantly greater force" than Sasuke)

updated lmk ur thoughts

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree with Sam on this point

The Momo that fought Sasuke was weakened/nerfed so just like we do with Sasuke we're not going to make a key for when he's weakened, we're gonna give him a key for when he's most optimal, which in Momoshiki's case, is against Code/Kawaki and against Boro AFTER he absorbs Naruto's chakra, because that's when he's able to fill his chakra tank and work at near full capacity before Boruto woke up

I'm fine with this.
But just to be clear, I'm not in agreement with the Borushiki that fought Boro being equal to the one that fought Code/V2 Kawaki, since he's grown stronger due to his Karma decompressing a lot more and whatnot. I don't think you suggested that at any point, but I just wanted to make my stance on that clear in case it comes up, since I'm not keeping up with this thread religiously lol.

 

[Samlex1234]

I'm fine with this.
But just to be clear, I'm not in agreement with the Borushiki that fought Boro being equal to the one that fought Code/V2 Kawaki, since he's grown stronger due to his Karma decompressing a lot more and whatnot. I don't think you suggested that at any point, but I just wanted to make my stance on that clear in case it comes up, since I'm not keeping up with this thread religiously lol.

Sup Slayer just to note a few things, I don't think there’s any concrete evidence that the decomposing of Karma directly makes the host stronger. This is why Boruto didn’t instantly gain access to 80% of Momoshiki’s power when he had over 80% of his data. Jigen had 100% of Isshiki's data and despite that, he is not as strong as 100 percent Isshiki and he still needs the karma to use any of Isshiki's power, Kawaki, despite having more than 80% of Isshiki’s data, didn’t show any noticeable increase in power even after Isshiki’s Karma vanished from his body.

I personally believe that what makes the host stronger is not necessarily the data or genetics of the Otsutsuki (It does help if they train and use the genetics to their advantage), but the Karma itself. According to Code, Boruto and Kawaki couldn’t fully utilize their Karma, not because they lacked enough Otsutsuki data, but because they didn’t understand how Karma functioned.

Kawaki is 82% Otsutsuki (Isshiki’s genetic makeup), not 82% Karma. Karma isn’t necessarily a percentage (Especially when you take away the data extraction process), it’s a key to the house where the full power of the Otsutsuki that granted it exists. Kawaki has 82% of Isshiki’s data and genetic makeup, but without Karma, he has no access to Isshiki’s power and abilities . Once he regained Karma, he now has the key again to access 100% of Isshiki’s power if he knows how to use it properly.

This shows that you don’t need to even be an Otsutsuki to access the full power of Karma. If you are compatible with Karma and you are Implanted with it, you can tap into its full potential, provided you understand how it works. We saw this with Boruto, who was over 80% Otsutsuki but couldn’t initially draw on Karma’s full power. Once Code explained how Karma functions, Boruto was able to access more of Momoshiki’s Power. On the other hand, Momoshiki, who isn’t restricted by Boruto’s limitations, he can use the full extent of his power through Karma because, unlike Boruto who is taping to Momoshiki's battle experiences, Momoshiki being in control already has access to his own battle experience.

“Just my own interpretation”


Code explanation of how karma works


Boruto after understanding Code’s explanation

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

If you actually think I'm reading allat, you've got another thing comin' buddy

 

[Samlex1234]

If you actually think I'm reading allat, you've got another thing comin' buddy

Please man I took my time with this.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If you actually think I'm reading allat, you've got another thing comin' buddy

You're weak...you don't have enough...yapsistance

 

[Nierre]

bump

 

[Nierre]

bumpity (guess i should call more staff huh)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Mayhaps

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Option 3 looks good.

 

[Nierre]

will begin updating profiles soon

EDIT: All updated and finished. Closing

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Ninja'd, loser.