Fist of the North Star: Garuda is SOL?

[Thebluedash]

Why do you keep bringing up the topic about how the author writes? Authors can write outliers mate. Can you stop making a long bluff and commenting on "Oh but the series likes to make statements like this soo..." and actually address my point? The speed listed is their best feat, cause if it wasn't it wouldn't be their speed. You're saying they have better feats, but are they calculated? No. When you get them calced to be even near SoL. Hit this thread again yeah?

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@blue The feat we have them listed is not their best feat, their best known speed feat is hyohs 10,000 punch feat. When calcd and using a timeframe of 1/100 of a second it was given an incredibly high number of Mach 16,000 for base form ken. And Forbes when powered up with his dragon breath technique, we get Mach 64,000 something. And that calc was still only base pre seal form Ken still countering that move. The timeframe was debated severely so it was left inconclusive. But you see blue HNK doesn't fall behind this statements speed. Is this good enough. I'm not trying to bluff HNK, and yes of course authors can make outliers. I just don't think this would be an outlier given how it doesn't really contradict any statements from the manga, and for speedfeats we need to make lowball calcs to give them an actual speed rating.

 

[Thebluedash]

@blue The feat we have them listed is not their best feat, their best known speed feat is hyohs 10,000 punch feat. When given a timeframe of 1/100 of a second it was given an incredibly high number of Mach 16,000. And that was only base pre seal form Ken still countering that move. The timeframe was debated severely so it was left inconclusive. But you see blue HNK doesn't fall behind this statements speed. Is this good enough

>Statements

Also you said "when given a timeframe of 1/100", so you're telling it could be a mach 16000 feat, but since it wasn't accepted. It's just a "could"? That doesn't work at all. We can only use the accepted timeframe and result for it.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

"Authors can write outliers mate."

"The speed listed is their best feat, cause if it wasn't it wouldn't be their speed"

Agreed.

Agreed on the basis that it's the best calculated feat, but keep in mind that it's "At least" due to how casual the feat was. And how both parties later on demonstrate moves that had to be logically faster but undeterminable as to what the speed is. The speed of light statement could fix that problem.

 

[Thebluedash]

It doesn't matter how casual the feat was, you guys the most biased I have ever seen. Doing something casually doesn't mean over a 100x boost. This is a statement, it's not a feat. It's not reliable, it's not consistent, there was never calc near SoL. So your point?

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@blue I'm not trying to sound biased trust me, I'm just trying to help the verse. You know this verse has like only three people who know to verse. If you read the manga you can see that the characters are very casual with speed feats. And don't focus on outward speed feats but rather close quarter feats. I'm not saying they are casually sol in fact this would be their pinnacle for only most of the top tiers. How's fly it'd help if cross was here to give his own opinion and explain what he thinks.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

"Doing something casually doesn't mean over a 100x boost"

This is fiction, you can have characters who can increase significantly in statistics when they go all out. My point was that the statement can give us an idea as to how fast the characters are when they go all out, and it seems that Garuda is able to take on the top tiers and even outspeed them in the verse (as mentioned by Grudgeman.) However, I'd need clarification on that last point.

 

[Thebluedash]

Casual doesn't mean anything, if it does Saitama would be like MFTL with Solar system crap by now.

 

[Ryukama]

If speed of light is a commonly used expression like Tiv said. And that the best feats of characters who are greater than this guy are vastly inferior (even if said feats were somewhat casual), then I personally think it'd be best not to trust this statement.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I am not saying Kenshiro/anyone in HNK is lightspeed just because he can perform feats casually with nothing to back it up. I am saying they're lightspeed because the top tiers should be able to match Garuda, the casual stuff only comes into play when people think how anomalous the formers feat is; when you take into consideration how casually these characters can perform their feats, then the statement can be applied to how fast the characters are at 100%

The problems I have right now, is who Garuda has fought. Because if he got his ass utterly beat by Raoh or something, then I would not accept it. But if Raoh or any of the top tiers had to use their all to be able to beat this guy then it's not a huge deal for me. I also worry about the certain kanji, hiragana or katakana used for the statement, as then it can lead into issues addressed by Tiva.

 

[Thebluedash]

Garuda is not a top tier, and him getting the statement is so inconsistent. It doesn't matter at all, there's characters who can easily beat him yet they have 100x less than the speed you're suggesting. The statement is a hyperbole through and through.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

there's characters who can easily beat him yet they have 100x less than the speed you're suggesting.

If that's the case then I agree that this should apply to nothing.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@blue one, Garuda is definitely a top tier, the fact that he was able to match juuZa, as a matter of fact juuza chose not to fight Garuda and ran off, juuza in the OG manga ran away from fights he knew would kill him, so if Garuda and him fought to the death, then juuza would have most likely died, and this is a man who nearly killed Raoh so he'll yes he's a top tier in HNK. He would contend with the likes of kensiiro and Raoh easily, would he win no, but doesn't mean he's a low tier, with his speed and strength he could kill if given the chance kenshiro or Raoh.

 

[Thebluedash]

Even if he was a top tier, I don't even see how this prove that it is not an outlier. Seeing as we once said a continent Whitebeard (top tier) from one piece is an outlier, and this is even more of a huge upgrade than that. Anyways, I am absolutely done with this. I made my points and now I'll wait to see what Ant and the rest has to say.

 

[Thebluedash]

I know I said I'm done, but I just wanted to say I fixed some of my weird wordings and now my sentences should make sense more.

Bye bye now.

 

[Ryukama]

This conversation really doesn't seem like it is going anywhere.

Blue and others keep bringing up these points:

-Characters that are superior to Garuda still have no showings or statements that are even 1/700th as fast as his claim.

-The fact that said characters did their feats casually doesn't consistitute such a massive upgrade.

-And the fact that speed of light is a commonly used, hyperbolic expression in the Japanese language.

However the points of Garuda being a top tier, the MHS+ feats being casual and others are still getting brought up in response to counterarguments to said points.

Like Blue said, we should wait until Ant and other admins make a conclusion before taking this further at this point.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Well i've got the same opinion as Blue and Tiva, for what it's worth.

Not getting involved with this thread anymore then this post though. it's a mess as it is.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just going to ask this based on what I've seen; Isn't this the same as making Lightspeed Flash SoL because he said he was SoL, despite not having anything to back this up?

 

[Ryukama]

@Azzy To be fair Garuda doesn't have characters in FotNS that absolutely godstomp him like Lightspeed does. But that is only one minor difference between these two things.

In essence it is pretty much the exact same thing.

A character with just a statement of being a certain speed, even though characters faster than him have not shown anywhere remotely close to as much speed. Let alone himself.

If we're not going to upgrade Saitama to FTL, despite the fact that his Sub-Rel+ feat was super casual. And that a character below him with amazing martial arts knowledge stated himself to be that fast in a story written by the original author. Then we shouldn't do the same for Kenshiro.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Given how this is going in a circle, I too will stop debating, however i want to make one final point, and this is about tivas argument about Japanese expression.

1. Tivas argument was that the word "Kousoku" can also mean "speed of light" that I will admit he is right on the part.

HOWEVER he says he translates mangas, if what he says is right. Than he must know that the sentence "My fist rends the air at the speed of light" is translated DIFFERENTLY from his sentence "My fist rends the air at high speeds."

This is the phrase the manga says in its original "þºüÒü«µÅíÒéèÒüôÒüÂÒüùÒü«µø▓ÒüîÒéèÞºÆÒéÆÕàëÒü«ÚǃÕ║ªÒüºþ®║µ░ù" or " watashi no kobushi o hikari no sokudo de küki funsai deki masu" this is the Garuda statement

Now this is the one tiva states could work "My fist rends the air at high speeds" now the kanji "þºüÒü«µÅíÒéèÒüôÒüÂÒüùÒü«µø▓ÒüîÒéèÞºÆÒéÆÚ½ÿÚǃÒüºþ®║µ░ù" and the hiragana version ""Watashi no saisho no o KŌUSUKU de funsai shi te küki ga deki." this is his statement that he says could be.

As you can see it doesn't take a fluent speaker to see the differences between the both sentences and characters. As you can tell I capitalized the word "Kousoku" because as you can tell its only said in his translated Sentence , not Garuda's. That's one point I wanted to point out.

Now another thing I want to point out is his statement on how "Japanese mangas like to commonly use the word speed of light. I'd like to point out that if it's such a common phrase in manga then why aren't they ever pointed out. Before you I've never heard the word "speed of light" being used a lot in manga

Your examples for your evidence are from Hajime no ippo and Baki the grappler, because they have uses the word "high speed" or "Kousoku ". However I found no copy from any site where people mistranslated that one word to speed of light in those mangas. I searched high and low for anyone debating if speed of light baki or Hajime were ever brought up, but no they weren't,

I'd be very surprise if all these manga translating sites for that word wrong. So yah that's my second point I wanted to point out.

My final point is the fact people were very quick to go for his COULD proposition. His opinion was that the phrase could be mistranslated, and while hypothetically yes it can be mistranslated

however than why do mangas like Toriko where Vic had an attack where he said it moved at the speed of light. No body argued it and during the time he introduced it he was wayyyyy below in speed of course before new feats popped up to justify him being FTL. But the fact of the matter is for a while his attack speed with the mold spear was SOL, and when someone like bambino dodged he was bummed to relative.

I find it a bit preposterous that Japan commonly used that phrase when this is the first time I hear it brought up.

The only argument against my proposition that made sense is what blue said how it could be an outlier. And I will wave the rest of the staff to decide what happens with this thread after this.

I'm sorry if I sounded biased or if I was boasting or wanking these characters to an extreme for those who were arguing with me. I really did notbwantbto come off that way, like many others in this wiki, I try my best to help their favorite verse as best as they can, and with HNK, there isn't many supporters who can help this legendary but small verses, all I simply just wanted to do was help the verse as best as i can because the honest truth is we don't have an exact figure of their full potential. The calc we have here is one that was not the HNK at their best. I'm not saying because it was casual it justifies Garuda's statement. I'm just saying that, it's very odd that we can't get an exact figure on these fighters best condition. The 10,000 strike feat is one covered in mystery because if the timeframe. We have a calc that puts them somewhat close to Garuda's statement at Mach 16,000-64,000 however because of the argument over the timeframe. That calc was left inconclusive.

When this statement came up and the evidence I had, I was sure we all finally get an actual concrete 100% number for these characters. I'm definitely not saying this statements is 100% justifiable, it could be wrong, just saying we shouldn't over look things because of small common misconceptions.

I will not fight anymore, whatever happens, happens so I will leave this as my final argument for this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree with Thebluedash and Ryukama that an upgrade of over 100 times in speed seems unwarranted, even though it is unfortunate that we do not have good gauges of the full speed levels of Kenshiro and the rest, when they exert themselves.

Garuda may also have been boasting, or overestimated himself.

In any case, Grudgeman1706 may be correct in that we made a mistake with instantly affording Bambina FTL speed. However, it was later confirmed with a calculation for another feat, and unlike Fist Of The North Star, we had nothing else to gauge the character by, given the constant enormous power upgrades in Toriko.

 

[Cropfist]

Everyone seems to agree that this is hyperbole or an outlier. Can someone close this?

 

[Thebluedash]

Ok then.