Fist of the North Star: Garuda is SOL?

[Grudgeman1706]

Hey guys grudgeman here with a proposal. Alright so their is a charscter in the HNK universe by the name of Garuda. He's part of a Spin off gaiden called Kinyoku no Garuda. Now in this gaiden, he says something no other character in HNK has ever stated. Their speed, but not just any speed statement he says this [Garuda statement].

wow shocker right there. Now I know what your thinking "but grudge that's probably an outlier theirs no way it could scale to the other characters." Ah but you see what if I told you it does. Not only that but I have concrete evidence of top tiers matching Garuda blow for blow, and an author statement.

Well Here I go

Evidence 1:Top tiers Now how could this scale to the other top tiers in anyway. Well for starter meet juuza of the clouds. He is the strongest of the Nanto Goshasei. Him and Garuda get in a little tussle and not only that but juuza casually matches Garuda blow for blow here [part 1] [part 2] [part 3] [part 4] And not only did juuza match him blow for blow, and battled with him the whole time , he did this all in the air which according to Garuda [is his forte], even catching him off guard and going behind him and leaving his sight for a moment (what's crazy he was the one on the roof and falling downward and he still disappeared from his sight and went behind him. Juuza is a top tier for being able to take on and severely hurt Raoh, making him close to the likes of Kenshiro and Kaioh etc.

Now another question your probably asking is "but grudge even if top tiers were able to match him in combat, this manga was made by another dude and was probably not in anyway consented by the authors or even looked at." I'm glad you asked that because this is where my second piece comes from, the main author himself.

Evidence 2:Tetsuo Hara Tetsuo Hara was the main artist and cowriter to the original writer to original HNK manga . In a VERY recent interview with the author and Creator of Berserk Kentaro Miura. They had the topic "spin off works" this is what tetsuo hara had to say about that [interview ] for those who cant read the above heading and rather see the interview here [full interview look for the section titled "spin off works"]. In this interview tetsuo hara states clearly "Today Hara-sensei actively takes part in the creation of spin-off works such as the "Gifu-Do-Do" series. Sensei creates the ever-so-important "characters", not just physical appearance and anatomy but also the "Personalities" that "animate" the characters, making them act like real human beings. Sensei then supervise the creation by young creators, reviewing STORYBOARDS and making improvements where necessary." He actively takes parts in spin off works of his creations from young creators, even stating why he diesit I quote "Fills the gap I couldn't fill myself."

So their you have it straight from the horses mouth. The original author get heavily involved with the creation of spin offs for his works. Low Top tiers of HNK have bested and matched Garuda in combat.

Now one thing people may think that their could be a problem. And that is could it be hyperbole. Highly unlikely for SEVERAl reasons. One this had the full attention of the main author (this manga was published in comic zeon, the company that tetsuo hara is currently working at.) and I explained how he is very much involved in spinoffs, helping with storyboard and how the characters act and say. In fist of the North Star characters rarely ever boast theirs power and don't prove it, most of the time they end up proving it. Also the way Garuda stated how his martial art isn't something hyperbole like "my fist are so fast it's like light or "no can see the speed of my fist" no he states it in an almost scientific way "My fist rend the air at the speed of light." So their you have it, it's unlikely that it's hyperbole. Due to the many factors showing how its not,I mean lots of characters before from many verses get upgraded by statements alone. With what I've shown, this should justify for this verse and its top tiers.

These are my evidence for the proposition I have. Upgrade all top tiers to FTL based on the statement from Garuda himself,this would mean Souther,Kaioh,Han,Kenshiro,Raoh,juuza(when I make his profile), hyoh, and ryuuken. What do you guys think if theirs any questions let me know

 

[Tivanenk]

I do hope you realize that Japan uses the term kousoku very liberally when it comes to high speeds (it's present in Hajime no Ippo a lot, for instance), where they usually use it to mean high speed, not the literal speed light.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I do hope you realize that Japan uses the term kousoku very liberally when it comes to high speeds (it's present in Hajime no Ippo a lot, for instance), where they usually use it to mean high speed, not the literal speed light.

I understand that, but like I explained in my hyperbole paragraph. Characters in HNK are very straightforward in their statements. For example when they state "my style can slice or vaporize on the cellular level" they show it and do it. This isn't some "every charscter boast or RL like manga. FOTNS is an oldschool Superpower manga. Plus most speed feats we have of them are very casual and they also of never brag about their speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. If this is contradicted by all of the other feats, I think that we can count this as flowery language.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Yes. If this is contradicted by all of the other feats, I think that we can count this as flowery language.

Ant from the way the sentences is is structured also, and the fact every known manga site I've checked has this exact word. I wouldn't count this as flowery language given that Garuda is able to contend with top tiers. Also this doesn't contradict any feats given that HNKs best speed feats are of them causally doing it. We have no feats of characters at their best.

 

[Tivanenk]

No, I don't think you understand what I said. It's not even a hyperbole or flowery language. It's an expression. Like, if I say that I'm so hungry I can eat a horse, I don't actually mean that I'm able to eat a horse. Same case with the term kousaku. A lot of the times, they use it to express that they're going at simply high speeds, not literal speeds of light. To actually take that term seriously, you need either a feat to support it, or be talking about speeds in general (you move at the speed of sound, while I move at the speed of light, for example)

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Tivanenk.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

No, I don't think you understand what I said. It's not even a hyperbole or flowery language. It's an expression. Like, if I say that I'm so hungry I can eat a horse, I don't actually mean that I'm able to eat a horse. Same case with the term kousaku. A lot of the times, they use it to express that they're going at simply high speeds, not literal speeds of light. To actually take that term seriously, you need either a feat to support it, or be talking about speeds in general (you move at the speed of sound, while I move at the speed of light, for example)

But that's what I'm trying to explain to you, he's not using it to express himself figuratively,when it comes to describing their styles HNK takes their statements very literal. Like the example I gave you of characters in the show stating "we slice things on the cellular level" and they show also if you want speed feats. We have a casual calc of characters reaching speeds close to the SOL, may I remind this was casual. You are right sometimes people throw words out in Japan liberally, but in this situation with both writers working on the manga, heck the OFFICAL English to Japanese translator site for Hokuto no Ken Hokutonogun has this exact statement as well.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Heck similar characters have stated to move so fast that their fist has no shadow multiple times.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

This isn't a show where moving at such high speeds is impossible like the realistic manga. hajime no ippo you described.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Grudgeman1706 wrote: This isn't a show where moving at such high speeds is impossible like the realistic manga. hajime no ippo you described. And he was describing his speed,mthats how characters in HNK say how strong they are. And 99% of the time they are being literal not figurative, in the manga everything is almost literal. Like when they say raohs horse is as big as an elephant, they show that the horse is as big as an elephant. </div>

 

[Tivanenk]

"My fist can rend the air at the speed of light!" can be changed "My fist can rend the air at high speeds!" and it literally wouldn't change the meaning, that's how often the expression kousaku is used in manga, especially battle manga, such as Hajime no Ippo, Baki the Grappler, etc.

Trust me, I have been translating manga for a couple months already, the expression turns up all the time to mean high speeds.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

"My fist can rend the air at the speed of light!" can be changed "My fist can rend the air at high speeds!" and it literally wouldn't change the meaning, that's how often the expression kousaku is used in manga, especially battle manga, such as Hajime no Ippo, Baki the Grappler, etc.

Trust me, I have been translating manga for a couple months already, the expression turns up all the time to mean high speeds.

Their is a "the" before speed of light so it would be more like" My fist rend the air at the high speeds" see that doesn't fit right or make sense if all the copies said "My fist rend the air at speed of light" than yah yours would make way more sense, and be right,but that "the" is what seperates "high speeds" and "speed of light" plus I doubt, they got the translation wrong, especially since that Japanese word has so many meanings, that's why they seperated it with "The" making a distinct reason on why it's "the speed of light" and not "The high speeds"

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Plus I don't recall any statement in baki the grappler where someone steps they move at the speed of light, otherwise I would have seen a lot more respect threads with someone stating that for their speeds.

 

[Tivanenk]

Plus I don't recall any statement in baki the grappler where someone steps they move at the speed of light, otherwise I would have seen a lot more respect threads with someone stating that for their speeds.

Sure they didn't: http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/13901/03-028.0/compressed/c017.jpg

Do you realize now how often Japanese use the speed of light expression to express very high speeds?

 

[Antvasima]

Again, I agree with Tivanenk. We cannot upgrade characters based on expressions that explicitly contradict their demonstrated feats when they exert themselves.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Again, I agree with Tivanenk. We cannot upgrade characters based on expressions that explicitly contradict their demonstrated feats when they exert themselves.

Antvasima, we don't have any calc contradicting the statement, the only "acceptable" calc we have for Kens is one he did very casually and with out waste.and the best cal'd one we got was Ken beating a sub relative attack, not even powering up.

Also tivanenk if you are a Japanese translator like you stepsare than surely you must know the difference in characters both statements have "þºüÒü«µï│Òü»ÒÇüÕàëÒü«ÚǃÕ║ªÒüºþ®║µ░ùÒéÆÕ╝òÒüìÞúéÒüäÒüªÒüºÒüìÒü¥ÒüÖ" or "My fist can rend the air at the speed of light" has different characters than the one you proposed "þºüÒü«µï│Òü»ÒÇüÚ½ÿÚǃÒüºþ®║µ░ùÒéÆÕ╝òÒüìÞúéÒüäÒüªÒüºÒüìÒü¥ÒüÖÒÇé" they are similar in some ways but both have different writings.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Sure they didn't: http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/13901/03-028.0/compressed/c017.jpg

Do you realize now how often Japanese use the speed of light expression to express very high speeds?

I can't see the image at all

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I'll post again heres "þºüÒü«µ£ÇÕêØÒü«ÒéÆÚ½ÿÚǃÒüºþ▓ëþáòÒüùÒüªþ®║µ░ùÒüîÒüºÒüì" or "my fist can rend the air at high speeds


"þºüÒü«µï│ÒéÆÕàëÒü«ÚǃÕ║ªÒüºþ®║µ░ùþ▓ëþáòÒüºÒüìÒü¥ÒüÖÒÇé" or "My fist can rend the air at the speed of light"

 

[Tivanenk]

Baki Dou Chapter 29, last page is what I referenced to.

But even hikari no sokudo can be used as an expression for fast instances. I have seen it used in songs before where it didn't actually mean the speed of light (300000 km/s). My point is still the same.

 

[The_Legendary_Carmine]

That statement conflicts with Hyoh's 10.000 punches feat, Hyoh was going all out, and that's still nowhere near the speed of light.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Baki Dou Chapter 29, last page is what I referenced to.

But even hikari no sokudo can be used as an expression for fast instances. I have seen it used in songs before where it didn't actually mean the speed of light (300000 km/s). My point is still the same.

The key word is CAN, your using multiple references where the situation is very different, HNK has multiple statements of moves and characters of "being so fast they leave no shadow" The idea of a character stating he moves his fist at the speed of light doesn't have to be impossible or not right just because one word can mean something else. Theirs lots a words in Japan where theirs multiple meanings, if we were to question every feat where a character states something moves at the speed of light, then we better deny Toriko where their some of the top tiers got their speed feat from coco stating his mold spear moved at the speed of light. Why do you think it's an expression rather than it being literal

 

[Grudgeman1706]

That statement conflicts with Hyoh's 10.000 punches feat, Hyoh was going all out, and that's still nowhere near the speed of light.

The fest of hyoh is debated, while yes hyoh was going all out, the problem was a timeframe because HNK never gives a timeframe. One where we use a FTE frame has it going Near the SOL, but it's all up to Debate on a timeframe. This shouldn't still contradict garudas statement.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Toriko was later calculated to be on that level as well, but you do have a point.

The question here is whether or not it causes serious contradictions?

Also, CrossverseCrisis should probably take a look at this thread.

 

[Tivanenk]

The point is that you cannot take simple statements and turn them into real feats when they most likely are used as expression. The shadow thing is also an expression as well.

Also, I did not support Coco's feat personally until Derous showed me that laser.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

The point is that you cannot take simple statements and turn them into real feats when they most likely are used as expression. The shadow thing is also an expression as well.

Also, I did not support Coco's feat personally until Derous showed me that laser.

I understand that, and I get lost of phrases get used as an expression. But what I'm trying to prove to you is that in HNK, most things stated that sounds like expression are very much literal like if you read a character state "my fist can are so sharp they cut through the likes a steel." Or that horse is as big as an elephant" you'd immediately think hey that's an expression, but in HNK these are true facts, cheaters do slice through steel, and the horse is an actual horse and in actuality is the size of an elephant. My point not I'm trying to get across is HNK is very literal with their statement, they don't like to be figurative.This a manga where theirs men where Men are so gigantic some ride actual elephants as if they were horses, slice diamonds with their styles or steel, vaporize on the cellular and atomic level. And have multiple moves based on the idea of "shadowless" not even joking or bluffing.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Well, Toriko was later calculated to be on that level as well, but you do have a point.

The question here is whether or not it causes serious contradictions?

Also, CrossverseCrisis should probably take a look at this thread.

I will send this to his wall, also to clarify, no character that isn't a top tier has been able to even touch him, every character that has fought him that wasn't a top tier like juuza was instantly blitzed by his speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Well, the statement seems legit. I don't know enough about HnK to know if its contradicted by anything big but I found myself agreeing with most of Grudges points. As he said, the quote is pretty clear cut and to the point.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. It seems like Cross does not want to participate. But we do need input from more members.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with Tiv on this.

 

[Kowt]

Hyperbole

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Tiv. It is likely either inaccurate, hyperbole, or an outlier.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

If the speed of light statement Garuda said contains "kousaku" then yeah I will agree that it's probably an expression thing.

If not, then I don't see a massive problem, it does not contradict the 10k punches Hyoh throws out. Because we don't really have a timeframe to see how fast it is to begin with, but for other feats (like the Hyoh pressure points one) we know he was throwing it out without much effort & Kenshiro grabbed it easily. Point of the matter is, Kenshiro and Hyoh's feats are very casual and its not really surprising for them to move at lightspeed when going all out.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

If the speed of light statement Garuda said contains "kousaku" then yeah I will agree that it's probably an expression thing.

If not, then I don't see a massive problem, it does not contradict the 10k punches Hyoh throws out. Because we don't really have a timeframe to see how fast it is to begin with, but for other feats (like the Hyoh pressure points one) we know he was throwing it out without much effort & Kenshiro grabbed it easily. Point of the matter is, Kenshiro and Hyoh's feats are very casual and its not really surprising for them to move at lightspeed when going all out.

AMM "watashi no kobushi o hikari no sokudo de küki funsai deki masu ," this is the exact phrase in Japanese of the manga statement.

No kousaku, and if you translate the one Tiavnek keeps saying it might be we get "Watashi no saisho no o KŌUSUKU de funsai shi te küki ga deki." As you can see the translation uses KŌUSOKU when translating the word "high speeds" not speed of light. In fact multiple translation sites have "high speeds" = Kousoku and Speed of light= Hikarino Sokudo, see the difference

Yes both words can mean it by a lesser extent, however it's clearly shown that Kousoku refers to high speeds more than it is for speed of light, its a matter of context and what situation the charscter is, clearly the translators from MULTIPLE manga sites including the original translating site for this manga use speed of light, Theirs no way all of them mistranslated that one word, they saw the statement and translated accordingly, it's not used in a figurative way, and now that we know HNK feats don't contradict each other because the feats are without An actual timeframe.

The whole argument here is that it COULD be an expression, but in the context it's in, the differences in hiragana and kanji for both sentences argued, and the way the author writes his characters being very literal, than we should take the statement as it is.

 

[LordXcano]

'''Here for those notifications'''

 

[Thebluedash]

This seems like an outlier/hyperbole.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

This seems like an outlier/hyperbole.

Blue it's not an outlier, Top tiers like juuza was able to match Garuda in combat and block everyone of his attacks in the air, even though air combat is his forte. And juuza himself was able to match Raoh in combat, only to be killed though not without a bloody fight. The Stevens isn't a hyperbole for the reasons it doesn't contradict feats of the HNK series. Their best feats are incredibly unknown due to the fact that they are without a stable timeframe. And argued a himself isn't comparing his speed to light, he's stating it a very serious tone that " I move my first at the speed of light in order to create a powerful fire from the friction." In HNK, characters are very much literal with their statements, poeple as tall as houses, or horses the size of elephant, martial art that slices on the cellular level, dark magic and etc. a all exist in the HNK verse and come from statement.

 

[Thebluedash]

You do realize that does not negate that it's not an outlier? An outlier is when a feat is way higher than the current stats and is inconsistent, which in this case it is. They never have a single feat even close to SoL. You can write all the essay you want telling me it's not an outlier, but it is one.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

You do realize that does not negate that it's not an outlier? An outlier is when a feat is way higher than the current stats and is inconsistent, which in this case it is. They never have a single feat even close to SoL. You can write all the essay you want telling me it's not an outlier, but it is one.

Blue the speed we have them listed as isn't even their best speed feat, literally the only problem was timeframe, because HNK itself doesn't like to brag about their speed or give an actual timeframe. The closest we have to a speed statement is a character who states he moves so fast no one has so much as seen his shadow, which of course is a hyperbole given how the sentence is structured. But Garudas states his as more literal than figurative like Hans. Theirs very little evidence pointing it to be a outlier, given that also the creator himself was heavily working on this manga as well, most of it was storyboard.