Fallout Downgrades

[Qawsedf234]

> I mean, did you contact Mr.Bambu about it so he could talk about his calc

I did. I guess I can ask him to look over it again

 

[Keeweed]

I assumed you did, just wanted to make sure though considering how fast this is going. I mean the Frankenstein revision took 3 days for the downgrades and that's a single character from 1800s

 

[Qawsedf234]

As mentioned in the OP, is there anything that would contradict my points? The Fat-Man has no lore statements about power and is far to small in-game to warrant anything more than a 8-C rating. Power Armor has to many lore anti-feats to justify anything above 9-A and Liberty Prime's strongest weapon is only 3-4x that of a mini-nuke.

 

[Keeweed]

I was thinking of the original downgrades. Me.Bambu said that the mini nuke was to small to be 8-B which is exactly what you are saying. So he calc'd the tri laser. I don't think it's gameplay mechanics (though what counts as gameplay mechanics has become way to muddled over the years). I'm not sure if it's an outlier considering how nobody said it was last time. I'm just think we should what a little bit. Also I know Schnee knows a bit about the verse, I just think we should wait a bit (but that could probably be a problem with me, rather than the thread)

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not sure if it's an outlier considering how nobody said it was last time

Just because no one said it back then doesn't mean that it isn't an outlier.

so I know Schnee knows a bit about the verse, I just think we should wait a bit (but that could probably be a problem with me, rather than the thread)

Why not ask them to comment. I would but I have no idea what Schnee full username is.

 

[Keeweed]

Ok I'll ask.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don't remember much of Fallout, but I believe Qaws seems to make sense.

Not sure about the nuke thing though.

Edit: Looking at a clip of the mini-nuke, city block is pretty ridiuclous.

 

[DMUA]

The laser vaporizing stuff doesn't seem like PIS or anything of the like

given other stuff, I can agree it might be an outlier though

 

[Qawsedf234]

Lasers turning people or large animals to ash I have no doubts over. It happens in scripted cutscenes, scripted animations, and pre-made set locations. The tri-beam being 8-B based on one feat that has multiple different solutions and scaling everyone to that is my problem. Espically since the strongest explosive weapon in the game is just worse than the calc by multiple tiers.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think randomly calling mini-nukes 8-B is big-bad.

Armor having canonical durability peaks doesn't matter if feats consistently contradict it. I've seen stuff like "My shields can endure 5,000,000 Joules" when they were like a Tier 7 character.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The armor point makes sense. The 2.5kj thing is contradicted by most other stuff. However the consistent falling damage and them canonically losing to sniper fire/sustained general fire all point to them not being 8-B. Plus canonically speaking Super Mutants with hunting rifles could penetrate T-45 PA. There's just no lore backing with them being 8-B.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ehhhh not exactly. Destiny characters die from fall damage and being shot consistently. If a calc puts them at 8-B, they're 8-B. Anti-feats or not. The simple answer to the gun thing is that the guns are just that strong in the game.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If a calc puts them at 8-B, they're 8-B.

Unless the feat is an outlier or is based on a faulty premise. In this case

• Its based on a gameplay element that may not be canon

• Lore wise you can defeat the giant robo-scorpion in a number of ways

• Canonically speaking literally no other conventional fire arm comes close to that level of power

The calc saying that its 8-B is probably correct in terms of calcs. But its still an outlier and contradicts everything lore wise. Such as power armor being breached by .308 and .50 caliber weapons, armor being destroyed outright from a 300+ foot fall, a woman being permanently crippled from a 100 foot fall, lore stating that the Fat-Man was far to dangerous to be used in the field since the explosion and radiation would inflict heavy damage on the shooter, and likely some other stuff I'm forgetting at the moment.

There's just no backing for keeping the 8-B and 8-A rating in my view.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If it is an outlier, then yeah, absolutely. But the age-old "well they get hurt by bullets" thing is irrelevant in this case.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why? If there feats are

• Dies to fall

• Gets breached by conventional ammunition consistently

• Can be damaged by melee weapons wielded by 9-Bs

• Has armor plates destroyed by rockets

• Can be penetrated by a more focused laser rifle beam

and the last is

• Can easily withstand multiple shots from a 8-B laser gun

One of those is not like the others and is completely inconsistent with typical portrayals. Like how this feat for Captain America happened but you wouldn't use it for scaling since its completely out of the realms of what he can normally do.

The feat is just inherently inconsistent and a outlier

 

[DMUA]

>Bringing up Marvel in a discussion about a franchise that doesn't have a literal page describing it's inconsistency due to it's nature

ugghhhhhhhhh

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Their feats are the 8-B thing. Unironically using fall damage and being shot a bunch is not a show for a downgrade. Just to put it in perspective, this would unironically be suggesting all D&D Pre-Tier 2 characters are 9-B to 9-A at best because they can die from fall damage and get hurt by swords.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, as another example, how about the time Genos blow up part of a mountai. It was deemed that the feat was an outlier. Since even if he preformed it at the start of the series, stronger versions of Genos and other vastly stronger characters have completely failed to produce results even close to what he achived casually.

In this case its a similar thing. Its a what if calc that contradicts established lore and how the weapons are usually portrayed. I don't see why it should be used considering all of that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes. Outliers exist. But you need to compare it to something other than the bullet and fall damage thing, those are literally the poster children for "Anti-Feats Everyone Ignores".

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mentioned other stuff though. It was mentioned that a basic laser rifle, if it was focused more, could easily penetrate the second best power armor in the series. Power Armor is consistently heavily damaged or nearly destroyed by rockets. The fall damage and bullets overwhelming it is just more evidence towards the thing not being 8-B.

Deathclaws are noted as having claws sharp enough to penetrated power armor, Super Mutants have damaged power armor in unarmed combat before, the explosion of the early Fat-Man models were enough to damage power armor, and entire suits were destroyed by a fall. 8-B is just an outlier, plain and simple. There's just nothing else that comes close to it and nothing backs the rating.

Its just ultimately a game-play attributed outlier.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fall damage and bullets just straight up aren't applicable in any scenario once you pass like Tier 9-B.

Fodder enemies can damage people in video games despite obviously not being on their level.

 

[Keeweed]

I should point out in Fallout 4 you can fall from higher than 100 feet and be just fine so the person that got her legs broken from 100 gets seems to be already inconsistent

 

[Qawsedf234]

As a note, I'm not saying that PA should be 9-C or 9-B. It being 9-A is completely reasonable imo and there's plenty of evidence that would support that rating. I'm just saying that PA being 8-B is just incorrect, as is using the calc to justify AP for certain characters.

These are things that just can't be ignored since substantial plot elements rely on Power Armor not being that durable. Such as the NCR-Brotherhood War, the Super Mutant threat in Fallout 3 and 4, and various other elements in the series.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I should point out in Fallout 4 you can fall from higher than 100 feet and be just fine so the person that got her legs broken from 100 gets seems to be already inconsistent

There's a terminal that notes that a BoS soldier in unmoded T-60 armor got their suits completely destroyed by jumping off Trinity Tower. You being able to survive any fall in the game with no damage can be attruibted to one of two things

• Game play vs story segregation. Your suit doesn't get wrecked by every large fall because that wouldn't be as fun.

• The Player Character installing the mentioned leg mods onto the armor that would allow it to make those falls with no damage

 

[Keeweed]

I almost forgot to comment: I don't remember you having to upgrade the legs to survive falling. I remember you have to jump of a building as soon as you get the broken down power armor at the start of Fallout 4. I don't know if the Tri Laser is an outlier or not, but falling seems inconsistent already.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I remember you have to jump of a building as soon as you get the broken down power armor at the start of Fallout 4.

Yeah. But the fall wasn't that high and it was completely avoidable technically (though I will say that the intention was obvious that you drop down). Anyways the building isn't that tall, probably only being 20-30 feet off the ground at the roof. In the case with the woman it was 100 feet. She also had other material that could've hit her, such as uneven terrain or something falling on her

I don't remember you having to upgrade the legs to survive falling.

In game yes. But lore wise that's a different story. In-lore a high enough drop will wreck a suit without leg armor mods. It wouldn't be difficult for someone familiar with the suits (such as the PC) to add those mods lore wise.

I don't know if the Tri Laser is an outlier or not

If it is not an outlier, can you please name any non-doomsday weapon that even approaches what the calc gives the tri-beam (while unmodded mind you)

 

[Anttron224]

Tesla Cannon

 

[Anttron224]

Experimental MIRV

 

[Qawsedf234]

What feats does the tesla cannon have that supports the 8-B rating.

 

[Anttron224]

Euclid's C Finder

 

[Podonklos]

Qaws' suggestions seem to be mostly reasonable.

Skimming through the thread, a big point of contention seems to be the yield of the Fat Man's mini-nukes. If asked, I could calculate the yield of those for this thread. Does anyone have a problem with that?

 

[Qawsedf234]

can you please name any non-doomsday weapon

Even then, the Finder still doesn't have feats to suggest that its 8-B. Unless scorching a couple hundred feet of ground counts as 8-B

Does anyone have a problem with that?

Sounds good

 

[Anttron224]

Nevermind, tesla cannons are anti vehicle weapons, which puts them around small building level

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah the tesla cannons are solid examples of something 9-A imo. They can one shot Vertibirds (both combat and transport) and can presumably penetrate Power Armor since the BoS wanted it to counter the better equipped Enclave forces.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm cool with 9-A. Just don't downgrade because fall damage/bullets.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I wasn't trying to downgrade because of those, I was using them as in-universe examples of the armor not being as high as they were previously rated. The suits can withstand close range explosives, grenades, and direct rocket detoninations along with energy weapons that can vaporize humans and large creatures. But they are also one shot by a Fat Man for everyone but the player character. Them being 9-A makes sense, them being 8-B doesn't, which was my ultimate issue with them.

So I think we were just misunderstanding each other or were on different pages.

 

[Anttron224]

I guess another reason for them being 9-A rather than 8-B would be their weakness to Tesla Cannons, due to them being anti-tank weaponry; I remember that after I got the Tesla-Beaton Prototype I could wipe out the entire BoS Bunker with ease.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached an agreement here?

Also, my apologies about likely rushing this too much.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think we have

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.