Escaping A Real Black Hole

[Cropfist]

Exactly what level of FTL speed is required to do so?

 

[DontTalk]

Depends on how far you are in it, even though I am spontanously not sure how to quantify.

Just past the event horizon would only require speed very slightly above the speed of light.

 

[LordXcano]

http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/gravitation_escape_velocity_black_hole.htm

Formula is on here.

 

[DontTalk]

I am sceptical that the escape velocity is the speed necessary for escape for all of the black hole. It is at the very border of the event horizon, but if that is just a coincidence or if there is a strict relation, I am unsure about.

 

[Yamatohime]

I think one need not speed but reality warping or at least spatial manipulation.

 

[LordXcano]

That's the formula for being beyond the event horizon, but I think it explains why it works. As long as you aren't in the singularity spatial manipulation isn't needed.

 

[Yamatohime]

Still you need some protection like spatial manipulation or else you will be atomized... And it will be only the start of the fun.

 

[DontTalk]

That's the formula for being beyond the event horizon, but I think it explains why it works.

The thing is from what I see it is the formula for escape velocity, which actually isn't what we are searching for. Basically this.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

you cannot escape a real black hole at all once you get past the horizon

cuz a real black hole happens in a relativistic universe, where light speed is max speed

 

[Yamatohime]

So spatial manipulation is indeed needed.

 

[The_Everlasting]

you cannot escape a real black hole at all once you get past the horizon
cuz a real black hole happens in a relativistic universe, where light speed is max speed

Is that working under the assumption that nothing can move FTL?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

you cannot escape a real black hole at all once you get past the horizon
cuz a real black hole happens in a relativistic universe, where light speed is max speed

Well that's just using real life physics where nothing can move FTL, right?

yes and in an ftl verse, the black hole does NOT act like an actual black hole

 

[Yamatohime]

yes and in an ftl verse, the black hole does NOT act like an actual black hole

I actualy know some FTL-verses which describes BH as theoretical BH. The main problem is that... Spaceships usualy can't survive even close proximity to the event horizon. Hyperspace bubble sometimes helps though.

 

[LordXcano]

you cannot escape a real black hole at all once you get past the horizon
cuz a real black hole happens in a relativistic universe, where light speed is max speed

A black hole happens once enough mass becomes dense enough that the escape velocity past a certain point is >c. The only bit relativity would play is time/space dilation AFAIK, but that has nothing to do with the question.

 

[DontTalk]

@LordXcano: The newtonian kind of black hole you talk about isn't inescapeable.

Escape velocity is unrelated to escapeability, as long as you can exert a force upwards stronger than gravity pulls you downwards you could escape a planet without even remotely reaching escape velocity. Similar it is for the black hole.

The inescapeability of black holes only follows once you see gravity not as force, but as a geometrical property of spacetime.

So no, without relativity a black hole in the practicle defintion can't exist. Or in other words without it even a 1 m/s object can escape from black holes.

 

[LordXcano]

Alright I understand.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Huh. This thread's most certainly not my area of expertise, keeping it on-hand is actually really helpful. What about all of the pages that have outracing a black hole as a speed feat, though...?

 

[DontTalk]

@ThePerpetual:

We aren't that vs related is this thread currently, I believe. For practical reasons escaping real black holes should still be considered FTL.

Characters braking laws of physics never stopped us using physics to quantify feats, so I would not take this as an exception.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Alright then. I just remembered a lot of pages having it listed as FTL+, typically, hence why I wondered.

 

[DontTalk]

FTL+? I would only rank it as FTL, especially if not quantified and I have really never seen anyone quantify it.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

hmmm well

wudnt it dependd on the distance from the singularity then if we are discarding certain logic of relativity

iirc using the basic escape velocity newtonian equation

escaping from the singularity would take infinite speed as r(at singularity) = 0

so v(escape) = root(2GM/(R=0)) --> approaches infinity

so the closer to singularity, the closer escape velocity will approach infinity? (it is light speed at R=radius of balck hole, which makes sense since that is the event horizon)

 

[DontTalk]

As mentioned above the thing I am not sure about if wether the mechanism of inescapeability scales in the same way as the escape velocity.

Basically for all below c applications you don't need escape velocity to escape a planet with that escape velocity. For exactly c it happens to match the starting point of inescapeability.

But for above c? I am actually not sure if relating escape velocity to the speed needed to escape makes sense in that interval.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

irl it cant work

but using that equation it wud make sense in a non relativistic universe

but still, i may add, i think even that formula might not apply in fictions

but if it does, then it can help uf find the speed

it a newtonian version tho

so i am undecided on this

 

[Mandfireguy21]

Technically speaking, you may escape a black hole at ANY velocity as long as you can apply a constant force on yourself.

"Escape velocity" is the speed you gotta be at when you shut down your engines, so you leave safely. But if you keep a force equal to that one gravity generates, you can escape the Earth, a star, a black hole... At any speed, even a nanometre per year, because you won't be stopped.

So, technically a black hole's gravity tells nothing about speed. It DOES mean you have a darn strong engine, and if you do it in a single jump it does mean you're FTL because you already started out with sufficient velocity to leave it.

Otherwise, "escaping a black hole" means you're strong, possibly proportionally fast, but not necessarily.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

you cannot escape a real black hole once you pass the event horizon, if u dont cross the event horizon, hthen u can escape, for example if you are in an orbit around one, you can escape, but past the event horizon, you cannot

 

[DontTalk]

@Mandfireguy21: That view has the error, which you get if you simply try to explain the inescapeability of a black hole through the force it produces or the escape velocity.

Gravity in genreal relativity in actually not a force, but a change in the geometrical properties of spacetime, as such the effects here are a bit different.

I think a good way to visualize, why escaping a black hole is not depended on resisting its force or the concept of escape velocity is the light cone model.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

yeah, going by light cones, your future set of events literally point inwards towards a black hole, quite cool if u ask me

seemed to be cool when i was shown the physics and the metric for this a few months ago

 

[Mandfireguy21]

So this would require... Breaking relativity?

Like, that'd mean the only way to escape a black hole would be to break the laws of physics or at least the scope of relativity. This requires either FTL, infinite Lifting Strength or a form of reality warping (time or space manipulation, multidimensional movement).

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

once in the range of blakc hole, using conventional relativity, you cannot escape, and since the title concerns actual black holes, this will be the case

 

[Mandfireguy21]

once in the range of blakc hole, using conventional relativity, you cannot escape, and since the title concerns actual black holes, this will be the case

Well, fiction often depicts black holes being escaped. We could just put it as either FTL, or some kind of hax (Space, time or reality warping).

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

once in the range of blakc hole, using conventional relativity, you cannot escape, and since the title concerns actual black holes, this will be the case

Well, fiction often depicts black holes being escaped. We could just put it as either FTL, or some kind of hax (Space, time or reality warping).

-_-

we are talking about actual ones

 

[Mandfireguy21]

once in the range of blakc hole, using conventional relativity, you cannot escape, and since the title concerns actual black holes, this will be the case

Well, fiction often depicts black holes being escaped. We could just put it as either FTL, or some kind of hax (Space, time or reality warping).

-_-
we are talking about actual ones

Then you can't. Duh. ._. Why is this even a discussion, then?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Then you can't. Duh. ._. Why is this even a discussion, then?

idk man .-.

 

[Antvasima]

Should I close this thread?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Should I close this thread?

yes