Eru Il├║vatar Tier

[Hat_mchat]

Eru Il├║vatar before creation fashioned the Timeless Halls amidst the void as a dwelling place. The Timeless halls are beyond the circles of the world and the laws that bind Ea. In the complete guide to Middle-Earth by Robert Foster, who has had his work reviewed and highly credited by Christopher Tolkien and also had this book published by Tolkien's publisher, the section regarding Ea mentions how Ea is "Bound by the principles of matter, space and time". This suggests that the 'timeless' void outside of Ea would be beyond the principles of space and time and someone like Eru who can manipulate this timeless, spaceless void would have qualitative power over dimensional constructs. This time there isn't any ambiguity between dimensions and universes as neither are mentioned. This clearly demonstrates Eru as a beyond dimensional being. As i remember, the powers of the Ainur were to "Henceforth be contained in Arda so that they are it's life and it is their's". This explains why the Valar don't demonstrate such rediculous levels of power. Furthermore the name "Timeless halls" indicates it is not bound by the principle of time. You may dismiss this as just 4-D spacetime, however it clearly says 'timeless' so 67-D temporal dimensions would still be time. This was just a side note as the "principles of matter, space and time" should clear any doubt. I seriously believe Eru deserves at least a "Possibly 1-A", however I'm quite new to this wiki so i would appreciate more input. Thoughts?

 

[Hat_mchat]

If even more evidence is required i can provide, just say so.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. I will ask staff members who are more knowledgeable about this subject.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The problem here is "beyond space and time" are often simpy used to denote something being beyond the space and time of a single universe, as that is what many verses are contained within. "Timeless" and such words have been used to refer to far less. Granted, the timeless halls are fully transcendent of Eä, which is part of why true Valar are Low 2-C and Eru is an unknown amount beyond them.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Azathoth makes sense.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I understand what you mean, however you quoted "beyond time and space" the important part you missed was the word 'principles' (a synonym for concept), yes i agree what you say is logical and true, however with the addition of the word referring to conceptual time and space, this encompasses all spatial and temporal dimensions as they are aspects of the concepts of time and space. 784-D space is still part of the concept of space, as i see it, any being who is beyond and has control over these concepts must have qualitative superiority over any dimensional construct. I completely agree that if something is described as beyond space and time, that the logical reasoning is to assume they exist beyond 4-D geometrical spacetime, so if that were the case Eru would indeed be 2-C. This is also why beings like Arceus are only in the 2 tier as they have never been described as transcending these actual concepts unlike Eru.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Also before anyone brings up lack of feats for Eru and the Ainur being 1-A remember that the Ainur who entered Ea had their oowers bounded and contained within the world and Eru has not shown any caps on his power, so evidence for a large tier boost would not be contrary to demonstrated feats (i think that's how it works). This is just to ensure you don't think I'm being completely unreasonable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There are beings here who are stated to beyond the concept of time or space, but we do not rate them as highly as there is not enough to go on. If a character in a verse with a single universe is stated to be "beyond the principles of space and time", we can not automatically assume this refers to all possible variations of higher-dimensional time, which is often not contained within a verse.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Surely though all dimensional time and space falls within the bounds of conceptual spacetime so anything beyond that must logically be beyond higher dimensional space and time. Could you further explain?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because we must first know if a verse contains it. For instance, we get multiple statements in the Cthulhu Mythos of things that transcend all facets of time and space. If we had no idea how far this extended in the setting, we could not automatically assign these things 1-A. However, because the Cthulhu Mythos defines space-time as an infinite hierarchy of infinite layers of existence and dimensions cut from one another, we know things beyond this are 1-A.

If a verse has a single universe we know of and a realm beyond it, we cannot treat this realm as 1-A simply because it is beyond the verse's conceptions of space-time, when Tolkien has no writings of space-time beyond how it is traditionally defined within our single universe.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Just to clarify, i'm not assuming that Ea is infinite dimensional, I'm just saying that the concepts of dimensional spacetime apply to it and are contained within.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, I know. It is not about that the setting itself must contain it, but that the setting itself must contain the concept of it. As in, we must know that the setting actually contains space-time on a scale above merey the 4-D universe, which is the only version of space-time we are given within the story.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Why does the setting need to show higher dimensions? In a vs battle (what this wiki is all about) Eru vs say a 43 dimensional being would win as that being is limited by 43 dimensions whereas Eru is beyond dimensional space altogether. That 43-dimensional space is still within the concept of space. The concept of higher dimensional space is still just a specific category of the broader concept of space. If a universe had say a maximum of 22-D shown and there was a creator who existed "Beyond the concepts of time and space" what tier would you give them? Does that mean a universe needs to show it has at least infinite dimensions before a transcendent being can be 1-A? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying the verse requires the concept of higher dimensions, which is very vague. What is higher dimensions? To a 2-D being 3-D is a concept of higher dimensions. I feel it would make more sense if the concept of space implies the concept of higher dimensions as it is still a component of space.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As in, you are saying "This character is stated to be beyond space and time, therefore he is 1-A". That's not how it works. Characters who transcend basic space and time are a dime a dozen, and they are very, very often stated to just be "beyond time and space". You need actual proof that Eru is beyond all forms of higher-dimensional space and time. You are essentially asking to upgrade every single character ever stated to be beyond space and time in any setting to 1-A. You are also suggesting that transcending space in a verse where space-time is defined by a single, 4-dimensional universe is a 1-A feat. It is not.

 

[Hat_mchat]

No, i certainly agree that "beyond space and time" is not proof of 1-A as many universe creators can be said to be beyond space and time. However it is not often said a being is beyond the 'concepts' of space and time. If a text specifically refers to conceptual spacetime i believe that a character should be 1-A as any dimensional spacetime would still fall under the broad category of spacetime. Would just like to ensure you understand my intentions: I fully agree with your reasoning, but it is unnecessary here as Eru has been stated to transcend conceptual space i.e. any space of any dimensions. This is on a more fundamental level. For example matter manipulation has many levels such as molecular, atomic, subatomic. However if a being could manipulate the concept of matter, they would have control over the fundamental components of matter, i.e. highest order matter manipulation. If someone created matter, you wouldn't say they created the concept of matter. What I'm trying to say is that through universe comparison, something beyond concepts of space > something that is bound by 52-D space

 

[Hat_mchat]

If there were conflicting evidence of actual feats that go against claims such as "beyond concepts of time and space", then understandably, feats > statement except in event of PIS. For Eru this does not conflict with any demonstrated feats nor does it seem impossible.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Because we must first know if a verse contains it. For instance, we get multiple statements in the Cthulhu Mythos of things that transcend all facets of time and space. If we had no idea how far this extended in the setting, we could not automatically assign these things 1-A. However, because the Cthulhu Mythos defines space-time as an infinite hierarchy of infinite layers of existence and dimensions cut from one another, we know things beyond this are 1-A.

If a verse has a single universe we know of and a realm beyond it, we cannot treat this realm as 1-A simply because it is beyond the verse's conceptions of space-time, when Tolkien has no writings of space-time beyond how it is traditionally defined within our single universe.

You say transcends all facets of space and time. Why would this be insufficient, this clearly states that something is beyond everything that comprises fundamentally what space and time is, regardless of how many dimensions there are. Concepts are fundamental constants between different fictions that allow for reasonable comparisons. This is why we have both time manipulation as an ability as well as conceptual manipulation.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because, if a verse does not utilize these concepts, we do not automatically assume it abides by it.

Arceus created both space and time. We do not automatically assume this extends to endless levels of space-time.

You are again attempting to say that Eru is beyond all concepts of space and time because he is not bound by the "principles" of matter, space, and time. This is false. This states that Eä is bound by the principles of matter, space, and time, as our universe is. Eru, who is beyond this, is not. Nowhere is he stated to transcend all concepts of space and time as a whole. Eru is not bound by the principles of matter, space, and time that govern Eä. You need far more solid evidence.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You say transcends all facets of space and time. Why would this be insufficient, this clearly states that something is beyond everything that comprises fundamentally what space and time is, regardless of how many dimensions there are. Concepts are fundamental constants between different fictions that allow for reasonable comparisons. This is why we have both time manipulation as an ability as well as conceptual manipulation.

Because not every writer is the same person. Different stories are built and conceived different ways on different perceptions of the world. If something were to transcend all facets of space and time in a setting where an exact 4-D copy of our universe is all there is, that is the only thing it needs to transcend, as we cannot assume an author who did not know about these things meant otherwise.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I would argue that principles aren't specific and are general. Principles of space and time is referring in general to everything temporal and spatial. Controlling the concept of death is a far greater power than simply killing someone. If the text were exclude principles, then my argument is irrelevant, but it doesn't exclude general principality. Indeed Arceus created 4-D spacetime, nowhere does it indicate he created the concepts of spacetime. The big bang created our universe's spacetime, but doesn't mean it created the concepts which is far more abstract. Unless otherwise specified (contrary to general definition) concepts are constant and refer to every conceivable aspect of what they represent. Otherwise the only way a verse could have 1-A is if it is explicitly stated that infinite dimensions exist. We don't know what the author meant, nor does it matter, otherwise it would be impossible to tell what power any being is. We can take general ideas across fiction (as long as there is no conflict) and apply it wherever necessary. Just because Tolkien doesn't know about infinite dimensions doesn't mean he can't create a character that transcends it.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Also the text says bound by 'the' principles of space and time not just any old principles i.e. the general concepts of time and space. This does imply he is beyond the principles of space and time as a whole, because there is no specific reference. A better way to put it is Eru is beyond the concepts of extension in all degrees of freedom and all temporal extensions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just because Tolkien doesn't know about infinite dimensions doesn't mean he can't create a character that transcends it.

Again, it does if the argument for it is based on use of the word "principle" for a verse where existence is a single universe. You are assuming that because Eru is not bound by the principles of matter, space, and time that govern Eä, he is not bound by any conceptual form of space or time period. Eru is not bound by the rules of space or time that govern Eä because he created Eä and what rules govern it. This does not make him qualitatively superior to all forms of space and time in general, especially ones not mentioned or hinted at in any form.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also the text says bound by 'the' principles of space and time not just any old principles i.e. the general concepts of time and space. This does imply he is beyond the principles of space and time as a whole, because there is no specific reference.
A better way to put it is Eru is beyond the concepts of extension in all degrees of freedom and all temporal extensions.

The problem here is you are looking at this from the perspective of something purely theological and not something practical in comparison to other verses. That is not how they are compared.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I think at this point the argument just comes down to text interpretation, whether you view the principles referring to Ea specifically which i agree would only be 2-C or if the principles are intended as general fundamental of concepts of what 'space' is. I would appreciate more input, but i don't see this argument concluding anytume soon if we both interpret the text differently. Yes you're right, author intention is unclear. Thank you for being reasonable. I admit my argument hinges on a single word, so if this were to ever go through, the tier could only be 'possibly'.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's totally fine, man. Tolkien's work is often intentionally vague and metaphorical in nature due to its heavy Catholic influence. It is often not easy to find a 100% solid answer for certain things.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Might be pushing it a little, but could you possibly consider a "Possibly Tier 1-A"? Understandable if declined, it's just i always viewed Eru as being boundlessly above everything (yes this is bias) thank you for your time.

 

[Antvasima]

I completely agree with Azathoth. We should probably close this thread.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Well, I have a little more evidence.

1. All Ainur are Universal: Before the Ainur entered Ea thye where all the same species, with the same powers. No distinction between Maiar and Valar was yet made. No Ainur was infinitely above another. If Eru is 2-C for creating 14 Universal tier carchters, then he should be 2-B for creaing thousands. I am only writing this to bump up the low end, and prove its not an outlier.

2. LOTR multiverse: More anti-outlier evidence

3. Slightly higher levels of transcension: Eru is slightly more transcendental then you might think. He ia above all concepts, including disorder, order time, etc. These concepts where shaped by Valar, and even too Valar Eru is above everything. All concepts have there source in him. Even when the entire universe wwas being destroyed, when the Valar where in a colosal war, he still maintained his authority. If he transended all concepts, deeper concepts like war and peace, order and disorder (created by Melkor), and is infinitly above creatures that can shape such concepts. If he transcends it to that exstent, it may not be a strech to assume he transcends dimensions as well.

I will look through the silmirillion and see if i can find some more.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Bump

 

[Hat_mchat]

How many ainur are there (source)?

 

[MasterOfArda]

I think its extremely unreasonable to assume there where less than a thousand Ainur.

 

[Hat_mchat]

How do you know that pre EA all ainur were equal when melkor was stated to be mightiest of the ainur?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It's up to you to prove there are that many.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Oh. This might be intresting.

According to this Arda is the world and all the sorrounding seas, including outer space, making it a universe. In Ea there where countless, likely infinite places like this.

The Ainur shaped all of this at once, making them 2-A. However, some Ainur can compete with others. Two 2-As, by defination, can not compete if they have the same powers.

They are not higher dimensional, that makes no sense. So, the only remaining tier that stifies all conditions (Multiversal, capable of competing, not random) is 1-A

Also, the Ainur transcend the Void, which transcends this.

 

[Hat_mchat]

According to 'this'?

 

[MasterOfArda]

How do you know that pre EA all ainur were equal when melkor was stated to be mightiest of the ainur?

There probably not. I didn't notice you responded, but I used it a moment ago.

 

[MasterOfArda]

According to 'this'?

My bad. I forgot the link.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I had a look but couldn't find anything suggesting there were more worlds than arda considering all the stars are found in outer space surrounding arda.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Yes, but Ea is much larger than Arda. It would almost certainly have other worlds.

 

[Hat_mchat]

It's important to back up these claims with sources, just a reminder.