Entirely Revisiting our Kinetic Energy policy for Faster than Light speeds.

[Algaro]

This has been completely bothering me for years. Essentially, Our policy for Faster than Light speeds does not count, due to Relativistic Kinetic Energy. However, This is absolutely illogical to say, or to apply, in a fiction scenario for the general case.

This only applies to our World, This should not be taken into consideration, with versus which doesn't even APPLY Special and General Relativity. To make this even better to generalize: We discovered a new Universe, which Laws of Physics are different, This Universe just so happens to only apply Newtonian Mechanics, and not Relativisity. And we want to understand just how powerful said beings are. In which point of reference should we scale? To our own, if said Universe applied to our standards, or should we apply it to there standards?

What I'm saying is, we should not apply it to our own. But to the underline basis of how the other Universe functions. It's saying: This Universe allows those to go Faster than Light, but our own doesn't. However, It's simply invalid, Which I don't agree with, as we should go with THEIR point of reference, rather than our own, as that's the basis of how the verse functions from which we even want.

Maybe someone wants to bring up that we should go with our point of reference, as we want to scale it to how it would apply under our world. Than we certainly know how to Double-Standard ourselves. We have abilities which couldn't even exist in our world, should we cut those out? Should we get rid of those that're High 3-A, because in our world, it's not even possible to achieve attacks which requires infinite amount of energy, (Considering, Energy can only be transferred, is it possible for someone to transfer an infinite amount of energy into their attacks? This isn't even taking into consideration, that there isn't even that much energy in the World. Should we now just get rid of this, because our world doesn't apply these standards? Of course, we'll go with what that world applies, and not our own. It's simply Double-Standards if we don't apply this the same way.

Because fiction almost always never even bother to apply these standards, We should have just kept to Newtonian Mechanics for Kinetic Energy. Instead of something which doesn't even exist in their world. For versus which does apply to Relativistic Kinetic Energy, We should keep a note saying which one applies. So It's a Case-By-Case scenario of how we scale a verse.

 

[AstralKing7]

this is interesting also at the same time this will cause a loooooooot of profiles to be revised

 

[DontTalkDT]

Was already discussed multiple times with these arguments and rejected.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Was already discussed multiple times with these arguments and rejected.

Out of curiousity, and perhaps for future reference for the site, on what grounds?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I've always been neutral on this subject personally. I think apart of the problem isn't just that it's against RL physics but because our formulas wouldn't really support it.

I do agree that sometimes we get a little to invested in what's realistically possible and what's possible in universe but that's a can of worms I'd rather not open.

 

[Algaro]

@DontTalk I asked for where it was discussed, and I couldn't find anything. Could you link to where it was discussed?

@Dark It's against Real Life Physics, for the same reason how the world operates on. Our formulas works, for the same reasons. You cannot make the same account, for another Show which has a Universe which doesn't operate on the same manner.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

"We discovered a new Universe, which Laws of Physics are different, This Universe just so happens to only apply Newtonian Mechanics, and not Relativisity."

And if you follow this line of thinking, you cannot at all insist on infinite energy being produced by FTL speeds because that in almost all FTL scenarios does not happen. The "new universe" needs to have a reason to include that not based on "our physics".

Given that these universes will seldom mention said formula and will likely never include showings of 'infinite energy' then I have to ask what would be all that different from saying KE with lightspeed doesn't count in the first place?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Out of curiousity, and perhaps for future reference for the site, on what grounds?

Too lazy to search for the threads right now to check what exactly everyones arguments were (I remember it was in parts discussed in the threads regarding Celestial Body Beats, which you can find in the discussions about the page), but the main thing just is that using Newtonian physics is the equivalent of using physics flat earthers believe in to calculate stuff, as in straight up wrong and never was correct to begin with.

If a feat doesn't adhere to physics it just doesn't. Using wrong stuff people at some point believed to be true is nonsense and we may as well apply physics the ancient greeks believed in to explain stuff that doesn't work for actual physics instead of that. It is about as good as using a made up formula.

Not to mention that relativism is a thing for over 100 years now meaning that we are talking about truly outdated ideas and the basic principles are known by virtually everyone.

To that comes that objects moving FTL in fiction has nothing to do with newtonian physics, but with the facts that authors don't care for physics whatsoever and just do what is the most entertaining (or just balantly have their characters ignore physics on a whim, even if physics are considered).


If the universe dictates the formulas they wish to have used to have their feats calculated be my guest, but aside from that FTL KE is just incalculateable.

 

[AstralKing7]

Tsuna from KHR is sub rel from punching someone who was moving at light speed even tho the verse said nothing about formulas for physics at all.

Same for the naruto verse. We got might guy at rel speed for bending space even tho the verse says nothing about physic formulas

 

[Algaro]

"But the main thing just is that using Newtonian physics is the equivalent of using physics flat earthers believe in to calculate stuff, as in straight up wrong and never was correct to begin with."

Using Relativity, From a show where Relativity doesn't exist, is just as poor, if not even more poor.

"If feat doesn't adhere to physics it just doesn't."

Physics only adhere to the Real World. Another Worlds Physics, May not. To say another verse must adhere to how OUR Universe functions, if it doesn't, than it's just the Author just trying to do it for entertainment, Seems to make no sense. Sure, They could be dong it for Entertainment, but that isn't to say it's wrong to think like that. It's also weird, To apply something, which never existed in the first place.

"Some wrong stuff people at some point believed to be true is nonsense and we may as well apply physics the ancient greeks believed in to explain stuff that doesn't work for actual physics instead of that. It is about as good as using a made up formula."

You're drifing away from which was being said. Nothing in there had anything to do with what was being addressed, and it's wrong to look at it from that point of view. We're using Newtonian Mechanics, as it's the most simplistic system to represent what's going on, and not trying to apply something which Doesn't exist in verse. That doesn't mean Newtonian Mechanics is accurate for what's going on, but merely just the most accurate.

"Not to mention that relativism is a thing for over 100 years now meaning that we are talking about truly outdated ideas and the basic principles are known by virtually everyone."

This has nothing to do with what was being said either.

The rest: I agree, The Universe does dicate such formulas, but that's NOT to say, That known amount of Physics, dictates everything else. As everything we have to go off of, is simply from the Universe. This isn't to say there couldn't be a hypthetical other world which has its own seperate laws. It's again, trying to look at it from a Case-By-Case scenario for the most accurate thing for which is going on for which we can work with. And not trying to bind Physics for our own World, to another.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This isn't going to cut it anywhere, sorry.

 

[Kaltias]

The main issue with "let's use Newtonian physic ignoring relativity" is very simple.

The Newtonian KE formula is, to put it simply, wrong. Literally the only reason why it's still used is because it's a decent approximation of the relativistic KE for low speeds.

Newtonian KE can't possibly be more accurate than relativistic KE due to that. If relativistic KE doesn't apply, Newtonian KE doesn't apply because it's useful only as an approximation of Relativistic KE to begin with

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Kal has a point about Newtonian and Relativistic KE. It would be nonsensical to try and calc FTL KE with either formula regrettably.

 

[Algaro]

@Matthew You could actually respond to this, instead of saying this isn't going to cut it anywhere.... It contributes nothing, besides making me slightly aggrivated,

"The Newtonian KE formula is, to put it simply, wrong. Literally the only reason why it's still used, is because it's a decent approximation of the relativistic KE for low speeds."

It's only wrong, when you get fairly close to the Speed of Light.... For the most part, There is just a very insignifigant/small margin of error. But that's only for a Relativistic world..... What we're talking about, isn't a Relativistic world.

"Newtonian KE can't possibly be more accurate than relativistic KE due to that. If relativistic KE doesn't apply, Newtonian KE doesn't apply because it's useful only as an approximation of Relativistic KE to begin with"

No. Kinetic Energy was thought to be primarly right until we learned that in fact, Your inertial mass does indeed increase when one gets closer to the Speed of Light. We see this outright being contradicted on most cases, where the Theory of Relativity doesn't even exist. So yes, Since they're shows which their inertial mass doesn't increase, The Kinetic Energy formula would be most accurate.

 

[Kaltias]

See that's the problem. It was thought to be right. Later on, it was prove that it isn't.

An object going FTL doesn't prove that the verse follows Newtonian KE over Relativistic KE. It proves that the laws of physics that we know cannot be applied. That's it. You can't try to calculate a physically impossible phenomenon using a physic formula

You can't apply Newtonian KE because it's a formula that doesn't work to begin with, an outdated theory that was replaced by a more correct one.

 

[Algaro]

W-What?

"It was thought to be right. Later on, it was prove that it isn't."

Never said it was right. I said it's the most accurate formula, for what's going on. Because their world, doesn't operate in the same manner. Relavistic, is NOT more so correct in this case, because objects don't gain inertial mass as they approach the Speed of Light. They seemingly stay the same, in which if that's true, Newtonian Kinetic Energy is More Accurate than Using Relativistic Kinetic energy in these scenarios. That doesn't mean Newtonian Kinetic Energy is accurate in this situation, just more so. In whichever case, We want to stay the most true to what's being shown.

It's not a formula which works to begin with for Relativity. That Doesn't mean, It's a formula which can't be used, if Relativisity wasn't a thing. Where in these case, Relativisity isn't a thing...

The entire point of this thread is that we should not try to apply something, Which Doesn't exist in these cases.

 

[Kaltias]

Ok, and by doing that, you only proved that the laws of physics that we know do not apply.

That's why you can't use a physical formula. If the verse states that they use Newtonian KE for FTL stuff, you can use it, but otherwise you are applying a physical formula to measure something that can't be measured according to physics. It doesn't matter if "ours is a world where relativity works, differently from fiction", because the formula that you are trying to apply comes from our universe, where FTL KE is not a thing

 

[Algaro]

You're missing the point. Yes, Fiction typically doesn't obey our laws of Physics. I'm not saying that. I'm saying we want to get to the most Accurate Formula for the feat in question, and how it's shown to function. Relavistic is outright not allowed in these cases, because it doesn't exist. Objects don't gain Inertial mass as they get closer to the Speed of Light. They stay the same. In this case, Newtonian Mechanics is more accurate than the Relavistic Formula. Thus, should be applied over something which isn't as accurate in these cases.

 

[Golden_Void]

So you're saying irl physics shouldn't apply to fiction?

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Also, I'd like some imput on this thread.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1873804

 

[Dziga]

Neutral on this for now, gonna see where it goes.

So you're saying irl physics shouldn't apply to fiction?

You're horribly oversimplifying the point the OP is trying to make. TL;DR, We do not apply KE to FTL speeds based on RL laws of physics, however, fictional verses do not respect said laws most of the time, and the fact that we have FTL beings already disregards General Relativity to begin with, so the question is: Should we revise the no KE values for FTL speeds or not?

 

[AstralKing7]

now that i think about it why are people like Black clover characters FTL when they react o said light that has other verses and character around sub rel to rel???? I can understand light speed attacks but why reactions and movenment??? SOmething isnt right when we have literally other verses with the same feats of reacting to light magic and spells but only at sub rel and rel

 

[AstralKing7]

I agree with the OP. I dont see the logic behind the KE formula when we arent even applying it to all verses and the fact that the fictions tends to disregard real life physics anyway

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DontTalkDT and Kaltias. We are not going to change our standards and should preferably close this thread.