Emerl vs Mori Dan (0-0-0)

[YmTheSuper]

Ultimate Emerl vs Post-Mori Jung Mori Dan

SBA
Speed Equalized
Both 3-C

Emerl:
Mori Dan:
Incon:

 

[DavidTPPM]

So what exactly are Emerls main abilities and moves here?

 

[LaserPrecision]

So what exactly are Emerls main abilities and moves here?

His go-to is copying his opponents entire kit/move set and their skill. How he fights an opponent depends on the opponent. Emerl composites the moves that are most effective against his opponent. Tho I think Ultimate Emerl is like the exception. He just uses everything he has. He's just going to be using what he deems best/most effective against Mori Dan after copying his stuff.

 

[DavidTPPM]

His go-to is copying his opponents entire kit/move set and their skill. How he fights an opponent depends on the opponent. Emerl composites the moves that are most effective against his opponent. Tho I think Ultimate Emerl is like the exception. He just uses everything he has. He's just going to be using what he deems best/most effective against Mori Dan after copying his stuff.

Sounds really similar to Dean who this Mori beat. Basically, Dean could see into the future and perfectly copy all of Moris martial arts before he even used them. What's worse is that this key achieved recoiless granting him resistance to power mimicry + uses sentient weapons so his kit isn't exactly copy-able.

Besides is there anything specifically worth mentioning in his kit? I don't see much on the profile and even his martial arts seem pretty mediocre compared to Mori's

 

[LaserPrecision]

Sounds really similar to Dean who this Mori beat. Basically, Dean could see into the future and perfectly copy all of Moris martial arts before he even used them. What's worse is that this key achieved recoiless granting him resistance to power mimicry + uses sentient weapons so his kit isn't exactly copy-able.

1. Emerl scales to skill-stomping people who can skill stomp people who copy people's entire move-set perfectly. Just as an example (I might be missing examples in between) Metal Sonic (Designed to be Sonic's superior, defeated) < Mecha Sonic Model No. 29 (Upgraded version of Metal that has all of Sonic's and his friends combat skill and abilities built in who gets defeated in like, under a minute IIRC?) < Sonic (Holding back) & Shadow < Emerl (Beat Sonic and Shadow in a 2v1).
2. I dunno if we treat a resistance to one method of power mimicry as a resistance to all forms of mimicry despite how different they are. One dude sees the future, and I assumed replicates the ability to the best of his ability. Emerl scans his opponent, and steals/copies their skill and powers and stores it in a digital database (He can even do shit like copy the physiology of characters made of water, and thus turn himself into liquid on command despite being a solid ass robot). Why couldn't the sentient weapons be copied?

Besides is there anything specifically worth mentioning in his kit? I don't see much on the profile and even his martial arts seem pretty mediocre compared to Mori's

In Emerl's kit? Yeah, he has all of Sonic and Shadow's abilities. As well as the abilities of like every single one of Sonic's friends + Chaos + some others. If you look at their profiles, you can get a gist of what Emerl can do. Emerl's profile is pretty outdated IIRC. Though I think it'll get a touch up eventually.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Doesn't seem like Mori resists Space-Time manip, Emerl's space-time distorting attacks may be troublesome.

 

[DavidTPPM]

1. Emerl scales to skill-stomping people who can skill stomp people who copy people's entire move-set perfectly. Just as an example (I might be missing examples in between) Metal Sonic (Designed to be Sonic's superior, defeated) < Mecha Sonic Model No. 29 (Upgraded version of Metal that has all of Sonic's and his friends combat skill and abilities built in who gets defeated in like, under a minute IIRC?) < Sonic (Holding back) & Shadow < Emerl (Beat Sonic and Shadow in a 2v1).

I don’t think you can exactly measure "skill stomping" without specific explanations because there are so many different aspects of skill.

Like for example even chapter 1 Mori could copy any martial art moves he's seen even just once but chapter 80ish Mori was capable of utilizing those copied moves to a MUCH greater extent.

2. I dunno if we treat a resistance to one method of power mimicry as a resistance to all forms of mimicry despite how different they are. One dude sees the future, and I assumed replicates the ability to the best of his ability.

No, his power mimicry has nothing to do with his future sight. They're just an insane combination since he knows what you'll do and how to do it before you actually perform the techniques.

Emerl scans his opponent, and steals/copies their skill and powers and stores it in a digital database (He can even do shit like copy the physiology of characters made of water, and thus turn himself into liquid on command despite being a solid ass robot).

Yeah just like how Dean copies your moves by watching you perform them with the difference that Dean can watch them in the future to use them before you actually do.

Physiology isn't really the issue, recoiless is just too complex.

Why couldn't the sentient weapons be copied?

Can Emerl create sentient beings? Or weapons with class Z mass or mid godly regen? If he can then sure but his profile doesn't really imply so from what I could read.

In Emerl's kit? Yeah, he has all of Sonic and Shadow's abilities. As well as the abilities of like every single one of Sonic's friends + Chaos + some others. If you look at their profiles, you can get a gist of what Emerl can do. Emerl's profile is pretty outdated IIRC. Though I think it'll get a touch up eventually.

Yeah so like, what exactly is the core stuff and how does it work? Kinda hard to figure out what's his go-to stuff with a Bible worth of abilities.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I don’t think you can exactly measure "skill stomping" without specific explanations because there are so many different aspects of skill.

Like for example even chapter 1 Mori could copy any martial art moves he's seen even just once but chapter 80ish Mori was capable of utilizing those copied moves to a MUCH greater extent.

I mean it's hard to tell in a game series as opposed to other visual media like comics or cartoons. They just outdo eachother in combat despite having the same abilities and stats (And in several cases, more abilities).

Yeah just like how Dean copies your moves by watching you perform them with the difference that Dean can watch them in the future to use them before you actually do.

Physiology isn't really the issue, recoiless is just too complex.

What does recoiless even do? Is it anything worth copying? If it's just a fighting style I can prolly concede Emerl can't copy it (Though I feel like there is prolly feats of people being unable to be copied that he could upscale from, but would have to check and add it to the profile). But if it's an ability, I think he most likely could. Pretty sure the stuff Emerl's copied is far more complex and abstract.

Can Emerl create sentient beings? Or weapons with class Z mass or mid godly regen? If he can then sure but his profile doesn't really imply so from what I could read.

I think Emerl can create sentient beings. Or at the very least replicate creating sentient beings. As he copies Rouge's attack where she summons bats to attack for her, and he can replicate that move. Unsure if he can create stuff with Class Z mass, I would have to check. But given the Multi-Stellar LS stuff in Sonic I think it might be possible he's done smth like that. Mid Godly regen, no (not yet).

Yeah so like, what exactly is the core stuff and how does it work? Kinda hard to figure out what's his go-to stuff with a Bible worth of abilities.

Uhh, lots of blitz speed amps, and basically Reality Warping with Chaos Control. Which gives him access to a ton of shit (Look at Shadow's stuff). He doesn't have go-to stuff. He uses what's best dependent on his foe. Like, in-universe that's how he fights. His fighting style is constantly changing. If he noticed his opponent was too tricky for cqc, he'd prolly just user haxier things. Like the aforementioned Chaos Control.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Mecha Sonic Model No. 29 (Upgraded version of Metal that has all of Sonic's and his friends combat skill and abilities built in who gets defeated in like, under a minute IIRC?)

Rocket Metal is never fought, you might be thinking of the Metal Sonic fight in Fighters?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Rocket Metal is never fought, you might be thinking of the Metal Sonic fight in Fighters?

Ah, I thought Model No. 29 was the one from Fighters. Mb.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I mean it's hard to tell in a game series as opposed to other visual media like comics or cartoons. They just outdo eachother in combat despite having the same abilities and stats (And in several cases, more abilities).

Well then that's hard to really consider a skill stomp or estimate in any reasonable way. There's actually a blog being proposed to which aims to help with skill based discussions and it directly addresses aimlessly long scaling chains like these.

Basically, just defeating someone doesn't really prove much of a skill difference, especially not in a meaningful way to a discussion. You can have a 50 people long skill chain IRL with the person at the top not even being twice as good as the person at the bottom.

What does recoiless even do? Is it anything worth copying? If it's just a fighting style I can prolly concede Emerl can't copy it (Though I feel like there is prolly feats of people being unable to be copied that he could upscale from, but would have to check and add it to the profile). But if it's an ability, I think he most likely could. Pretty sure the stuff Emerl's copied is far more complex and abstract.

Recoilless is a concept applied to Mori's martial arts. When a technique reaches the absolutely highest level where it no longer loses any energy (canonically removes DC and instead maximizes AP) and moves in the most optimal way without unnecessary micro-movements it becomes recoiless.
Even Moris basic renewal was already considered perfected multiple times before and Dean had no issues copying that after a single glance but recoiless is on such a higher level of perfection it took him 3 million attempts to replicate a single basic recoiless kick. It even allows you to perform martial arts at peak efficiency without even getting into position first.

So it's not an ability but a level of skill + precision + energy control. It's described as "a new stage of martial arts".

I think Emerl can create sentient beings. Or at the very least replicate creating sentient beings. As he copies Rouge's attack where she summons bats to attack for her, and he can replicate that move.

Uhh idk if creating a bat is the same as creating a sentient cloud. One is an actual biological animal which are usually sentient by nature, and the other is literally a cloud.

Unsure if he can create stuff with Class Z mass, I would have to check. But given the Multi-Stellar LS stuff in Sonic I think it might be possible he's done smth like that. Mid Godly regen, no (not yet).

Should Emerl have Multi-Stellar LS? His profile only says class M.

Uhh, lots of blitz speed amps,

Speed amps should be fine I think. Mori's instinctive reactions can already respond to attacks much faster than he himself. He can even instinctively copy martial arts to avoid attacks that he consciously considered unavoidable.
They might even be detrimental to Emerl as they would trigger Moris AD. Mori can, depending on situation, jump by as little as 8x and as high as 250,000x in stats basically in between attacks if faced with a physically superior opponent.

and basically Reality Warping with Chaos Control. Which gives him access to a ton of shit (Look at Shadow's stuff).

That seems really OP but from what I'm reading on Shadows profile it mostly seems to dodgable energy projectiles that dura neg right? If so Mori should be fine with just dodging. I also only remember Shadow really using stuff like that in Shadow Generations (one of the 5ish Sonic games I played)

If it's somethings crazy like, a thought based reality warp deconstruction, then Emerl stomps so. Really depends on the specific use.

He doesn't have go-to stuff. He uses what's best dependent on his foe. Like, in-universe that's how he fights. His fighting style is constantly changing. If he noticed his opponent was too tricky for cqc, he'd prolly just user haxier things.

Yeah Mori is similar to that. He adapts and improves based on the opponent. For example one of his least skilled keys (which literally had less combat experience and training by over 80 million years) once faced an opponent who understood Mori's own martial arts even better than Mori himself and completely nullified anything Mori tried doing, so Mori had to adapt to the situation and ended up outskilling the opponent in the end anyway.

So I think it depends on whether the haxy stuff Emerl has is enough to unavoidably oneshot Mori because if not it's very likely Mori would just adapt to anything thrown at him.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Uhh idk if creating a bat is the same as creating a sentient cloud. One is an actual biological animal which are usually sentient by nature, and the other is literally a cloud.

I believe Rouge's bats are like, living bombs. I might have to double-check.

Should Emerl have Multi-Stellar LS? His profile only says class M.

I don't know if it's outdated, or it's because Emerl is pre-Modern era.

Speed amps should be fine I think. Mori's instinctive reactions can already respond to attacks much faster than he himself. He can even instinctively copy martial arts to avoid attacks that he consciously considered unavoidable.
They might even be detrimental to Emerl as they would trigger Moris AD. Mori can, depending on situation, jump by as little as 8x and as high as 250,000x in stats basically in between attacks if faced with a physically superior opponent.

How far into MFTL+ can Mori go? If it's beyond Emerl's speed, then he can't do much against that AD (Ironically if it were anyone else relevant, this would've ****** Mori over badly) since his Ultimate form is the max amount of power he can withstand. Anything beyond that will result in him effectively killing himself.

That seems really OP but from what I'm reading on Shadows profile it mostly seems to dodgable energy projectiles that dura neg right? If so Mori should be fine with just dodging. I also only remember Shadow really using stuff like that in Shadow Generations (one of the 5ish Sonic games I played)

If it's somethings crazy like, a thought based reality warp deconstruction, then Emerl stomps so. Really depends on the specific use.

Stuff like teleportation, time stop, time slow, time acceleration, spatio-temporal displacement, power nullification, a snap that can spawn explosive space time warping balls on his opponent, etc. He can do a SHIT ton of stuff with it. Page is a bit outdated I think, and people are working on a blog for Chaos Control shit, but I'd say you might wanna look at this.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I believe Rouge's bats are like, living bombs. I might have to double-check.

If they're like, robots it'd be even worse.
Making robots = humanly possible
Making biological bats = humanly not yet possible but logically possible
Making sentient water/clouds = humanly impossible, would probably need some sort of magic

I don't know if it's outdated, or it's because Emerl is pre-Modern era.

Hmm idk, I didn't play those games. But his abilities are said to include only adventure era keys so I would assume it's that he's pre-modern era.

How far into MFTL+ can Mori go? If it's beyond Emerl's speed, then he can't do much against that AD (Ironically if it were anyone else relevant, this would've ****** Mori over badly) since his Ultimate form is the max amount of power he can withstand. Anything beyond that will result in him effectively killing himself.

Mori doesn't canonically have a limit to how fast he can get (the dragons even call him an "endless source of power") but the most we can quantifiably say he could reach before ascending to Nirvana was unfathomably above 200ish octillion c.

Stuff like teleportation,

Not really an issue, Mori could read teleportation locations when he was far less skilled already. And even less skilled characters could predict teleportation from just smell alone.

time stop, time slow, time acceleration, spatio-temporal displacement,

Depending on how those work and how in-character they are to use (especially in tandem with dura neg hax) they could straight up make this a one sided stomp since Mori at this point doesn't resist time hax.

power nullification,

I couldn't find that anywhere in his or base Shadows profiles, what kind is it?

a snap that can spawn explosive space time warping balls on his opponent, etc.

I'm probably blind but I couldn't find this anywhere I looked. Does the opponent have some time to jump away from the balls or defend in any way?

 

[LaserPrecision]

If they're like, robots it'd be even worse.
Making robots = humanly possible
Making biological bats = humanly not yet possible but logically possible
Making sentient water/clouds = humanly impossible, would probably need some sort of magic

Sentient robots I should note (Which Emerl themselves are). But I know Emerl can spawn things via his copying, turn into liquid via his copying, and either grant things sentience, or potentially pilot them himself. It's possible he could replicate it by manifesting water which he pilots whilst fighting.

Mori doesn't canonically have a limit to how fast he can get (the dragons even call him an "endless source of power") but the most we can quantifiably say he could reach before ascending to Nirvana was unfathomably above 200ish octillion c.

Yeah, then the AD's useful here. Their speeds only get above that range a bit later.

Not really an issue, Mori could read teleportation locations when he was far less skilled already. And even less skilled characters could predict teleportation from just smell alone.

Can he also read people concealing themselves in space and time, and being able to pop how anywhere whenever? Cuz that's smth they can do too in addition to normal instant teleportation.

Depending on how those work and how in-character they are to use (especially in tandem with dura neg hax) they could straight up make this a one sided stomp since Mori at this point doesn't resist time hax.

For Shadow, using time hax is super in-character. For Emerl, it's in character if the opponent necessitates it. Which in this case may be so.

I couldn't find that anywhere in his or base Shadows profiles, what kind is it?

When he hits things with Chaos Spear, he can nullify transformation, drain all stamina (Even characters with infinite stamina), and nullify their abilities. Tho that's prolly only listed in his Modern key (Tho I'm doubtful it's smth he can only do in the Modern era since it's never stated to be a new technique or anything of the sorts but idk).

I'm probably blind but I couldn't find this anywhere I looked. Does the opponent have some time to jump away from the balls or defend in any way?

It's a specific move. That's prolly why you can't. It's on his profile though in notable attacks/techniques. It's Chaos Magic. It spawns on his opponent when he snaps his fingers. Which induces Chaos Control. Which spawns an area of distorted space on the opponent. So there's not time to dodge or defend it (Unless the user chooses to intentionally delay it, tho that part MIGHT be a game mechanic. Hard to tell). But it effectively teleports on you/spawns on you instantly upon snapping their finger.

 

[Robo432343]

Is there an actual number for emerls speed amp thing

 

[DavidTPPM]

Sentient robots I should note (Which Emerl themselves are).

Yeah but there's a pretty big difference between programming some sort of sentience into a computer and magically giving a cloud sentience.

Yeah, then the AD's useful here. Their speeds only get above that range a bit later.

Nice

Can he also read people concealing themselves in space and time, and being able to pop how anywhere whenever? Cuz that's smth they can do too in addition to normal instant teleportation.

Uhhh that's a bit specific so I'm not 100% sure. But he has the same eyes as Mujin who could see energy from parallel timelines caused by them overlapping so it's likely.

Really depends on how that "time" portion of spacetime works here. If it's just like hiding between dimensions/spacetimes then I'd say yes. But if he's like, hiding in a different point in time then no Mori doesn't really have any time travel or similar stuff in this key.

For Shadow, using time hax is super in-character. For Emerl, it's in character if the opponent necessitates it. Which in this case may be so.

What exactly counts as "necessary" for him? I read that Sonic beat him in 30 seconds, did he use time hax against him?

When he hits things with Chaos Spear, he can nullify transformation, drain all stamina (Even characters with infinite stamina), and nullify their abilities. Tho that's prolly only listed in his Modern key (Tho I'm doubtful it's smth he can only do in the Modern era since it's never stated to be a new technique or anything of the sorts but idk).

So it's an attack that can be dodged or blocked. Still dangerous since falling asleep from a complete lack of stamina is an insta loss but seems do-able.

It's a specific move. That's prolly why you can't. It's on his profile though in notable attacks/techniques. It's Chaos Magic. It spawns on his opponent when he snaps his fingers. Which induces Chaos Control. Which spawns an area of distorted space on the opponent. So there's not time to dodge or defend it (Unless the user chooses to intentionally delay it, tho that part MIGHT be a game mechanic. Hard to tell). But it effectively teleports on you/spawns on you instantly upon snapping their finger.

Oh yeah I found it on Shadows profile, you're right. I tried looking up a video of it. Here at 1:11 it looks like the ball actually spawned in front of the opponent and they only got harmed after it exploded because they ran into it.

So while I'm not 100% sure, it does seem like the user chooses where they spawn and there is a small window of time to avoid the explosion that does damage, meaning it should be possible to avoid and especially aim dodge the attack.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Is there an actual number for emerls speed amp thing

Shadows profile says something about spindash being a 4x amp but the spindash page itself doesn't say any specific values. It just says it statues the opponent (which kinda contradicts a 4x amp since that definitely isn't enough to statue anyone)

 

[LaserPrecision]

Uhhh that's a bit specific so I'm not 100% sure. But he has the same eyes as Mujin who could see energy from parallel timelines caused by them overlapping so it's likely.

Really depends on how that "time" portion of spacetime works here. If it's just like hiding between dimensions/spacetimes then I'd say yes. But if he's like, hiding in a different point in time then no Mori doesn't really have any time travel or similar stuff in this key.

They never really go too into detail about how it works. They seem to "advertise" it as Shadow slipping outside of Space-Time, in which he can move around, and choose to slip back in whenever he pleases.

What exactly counts as "necessary" for him? I read that Sonic beat him in 30 seconds, did he use time hax against him?

We don't get a cutscene of them fighting, but Ultimate Emerl uses EVERYTHING on Sonic IIRC (in gameplay). Which includes Shadow's Chaos Control slop. Granted I dunno how useful it would be against Sonic, considering Sonic manages to consistently defeat Shadow who utilizes Chaos Control shenanigans in-character.

So it's an attack that can be dodged or blocked. Still dangerous since falling asleep from a complete lack of stamina is an insta loss but seems do-able.

Dodged, yeah. Blocked? I dunno. That would imply physical contact. Which would thus neutralize all your stuff.

Oh yeah I found it on Shadows profile, you're right. I tried looking up a video of it. Here at 1:11 it looks like the ball actually spawned in front of the opponent and they only got harmed after it exploded because they ran into it.

So while I'm not 100% sure, it does seem like the user chooses where they spawn and there is a small window of time to avoid the explosion that does damage, meaning it should be possible to avoid and especially aim dodge the attack.

Shadow can spawn is anywhere around him instantly with a snap, he doesn't spawn it in front of peeps... well, in the clip he does because that's how the player chose to deploy it. But he spawns it in whatever direction you're facing. However, if you hold the action button, you can move where the orb will spawn in anywhere in the stage. And once you let go, Shadow snaps and the attack just appears IIRC. But like, as far as how it actually works, Shadow doesn't spawn it in front of people to walk into. He can just spawn it anywhere within range of himself. Which includes on top of people. He even spawned it on top of the first enemy in the clip you sent. The others just walk into it after because the explosion persists for a second. He even proceeds to spawn it on the enemies 2 more times after the timestamp you gave.

Shadows profile says something about spindash being a 4x amp but the spindash page itself doesn't say any specific values. It just says it statues the opponent (which kinda contradicts a 4x amp since that definitely isn't enough to statue anyone)

It upscales a 4x stated amp. But yeah, Spin Dash lets you statue people who were initially faster than yourself. I calculated the hypothetical multiplier to be effectively 350x (roughly) IIRC. He can moves tens of meters while the opponent barely moves centimeters.

 

[DavidTPPM]

They never really go too into detail about how it works. They seem to "advertise" it as Shadow slipping outside of Space-Time, in which he can move around, and choose to slip back in whenever he pleases.

Well as long as he doesn't outright time travel Mori will probably be able to see where he is.

We don't get a cutscene of them fighting, but Ultimate Emerl uses EVERYTHING on Sonic IIRC (in gameplay).

I tried searching it up and apparently Ultimate Emerls moveset in gameplay is just a powered up version of Sonics moveset and all videos I could find seem to support that.

So while I understand it would make sense for him to just freeze time and beat the opponent like that, it doesn't seem to actually be in character. Similar to how Sonic himself should be able to use chaos stuff but rarely if ever uses it outside of his super form.

Dodged, yeah. Blocked? I dunno. That would imply physical contact. Which would thus neutralize all your stuff.

I don’t mean with his bare hands. Does it work if you say, use a shield to block it

Because Moris clothes are actually a sentient armor and his staff can grow to the more than 380,000 kilometers (currently accepted to cover interstellar distances but to be 100% real with you, that's an offscreen outlier that I plan on removing eventually) so he could use that as a shield if necessary.

Shadow can spawn is anywhere around him instantly with a snap, he doesn't spawn it in front of peeps... well, in the clip he does because that's how the player chose to deploy it. But he spawns it in whatever direction you're facing. However, if you hold the action button, you can move where the orb will spawn in anywhere in the stage. And once you let go, Shadow snaps and the attack just appears IIRC. But like, as far as how it actually works, Shadow doesn't spawn it in front of people to walk into. He can just spawn it anywhere within range of himself. Which includes on top of people. He even spawned it on top of the first enemy in the clip you sent. The others just walk into it after because the explosion persists for a second. He even proceeds to spawn it on the enemies 2 more times after the timestamp you gave.

I mean my point is that it's not like it's attached to the opponent or that it homes onto them, shadow has to actually pick the spot and then it hax to explode.

So if Mori is moving around and predicting Emerl he should be able to move away from where the blast is about to spawn. Especially given that (at least in shadows case) it seems like he needs to close his eyes and focus a bit and snap his fingers to use it, making it really obvious he's about to use an attack.

It upscales a 4x stated amp. But yeah, Spin Dash lets you statue people who were initially faster than yourself. I calculated the hypothetical multiplier to be effectively 350x (roughly) IIRC. He can moves tens of meters while the opponent barely moves centimeters.

Yeah that's fine ig. I don't think we exactly accept those but Mori should be fine either way. He can use and keep up with users of bo-bup as early as chapter 1, (step) which makes people normally equal to you move so fast it looks to you as if they were teleporting.

Hell Mori might even have a speed advantage if he were stack speed mode on top of it. Speed mode is a blitz tier amp that massively upscales from a 48x multiplier

 

[LaserPrecision]

I tried searching it up and apparently Ultimate Emerls moveset in gameplay is just a powered up version of Sonics moveset and all videos I could find seem to support that.

So while I understand it would make sense for him to just freeze time and beat the opponent like that, it doesn't seem to actually be in character. Similar to how Sonic himself should be able to use chaos stuff but rarely if ever uses it outside of his super form.

Guess I misremembered. Man, maybe I'm getting old

Idk, it's kinda weird since it's gameplay and not cutscenes, but I believe Emerl uses Shadow's shit earlier on in-game (Prolly during Shadow's story). But if Emerl's stated to fight in the way to best counter the opponent, it's feasible he thought using a better version of Sonic's moveset would be the best way to win.

I don’t mean with his bare hands. Does it work if you say, use a shield to block it

Because Moris clothes are actually a sentient armor and his staff can grow to the more than 380,000 kilometers (currently accepted to cover interstellar distances but to be 100% real with you, that's an offscreen outlier that I plan on removing eventually) so he could use that as a shield if necessary.

Not sure. I feel like the Chaos Spear would power null the shield in question. Which if it's a physical object is fine since it won't just go through it.

I mean my point is that it's not like it's attached to the opponent or that it homes onto them, shadow has to actually pick the spot and then it hax to explode.

So if Mori is moving around and predicting Emerl he should be able to move away from where the blast is about to spawn. Especially given that (at least in shadows case) it seems like he needs to close his eyes and focus a bit and snap his fingers to use it, making it really obvious he's about to use an attack.

In the clip you sent, it homed onto the Emerl bots 3 times in a row... Like yeah, there's a cue he's going to use it. But I don't think a cue matters if when he snaps, he makes the attack explode directly on you. I think they'd have better luck interrupting before he can use the attack then trying to evade it.

Yeah that's fine ig. I don't think we exactly accept those but Mori should be fine either way. He can use and keep up with users of bo-bup as early as chapter 1, (step) which makes people normally equal to you move so fast it looks to you as if they were teleporting.

Hell Mori might even have a speed advantage if he were stack speed mode on top of it. Speed mode is a blitz tier amp that massively upscales from a 48x multiplier

The hypothetical multiplier isn't accepted. It's just to demonstrate that if it were quantified, it'd be in that range for statuing peeps.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Guess I misremembered. Man, maybe I'm getting old

Hah I know that feeling

Idk, it's kinda weird since it's gameplay and not cutscenes, but I believe Emerl uses Shadow's shit earlier on in-game (Prolly during Shadow's story).

I've seen him use of the stuff like the force field or spears so he definitely uses that in character. But specifically the time hax like time stop should essentially make him unstoppable yet I couldn't find anything about him using those.

Not sure. I feel like the Chaos Spear would power null the shield in question. Which if it's a physical object is fine since it won't just go through it.

Then it should be fine. At this point Mori's Yeoui (the staff) is just a piece of dragon bone while his armor suit seems to be powered by Mori's own willpower (as it's stated it will protect him from anything as long as he doesn't give up) so they should be able to serve as a physical shield. Although dodging would still probably be the most reliable defense.

In the clip you sent, it homed onto the Emerl bots 3 times in a row... Like yeah, there's a cue he's going to use it. But I don't think a cue matters if when he snaps, he makes the attack explode directly on you. I think they'd have better luck interrupting before he can use the attack then trying to evade it.

What I mean by homing is that it follows you as you move after it's been activated. So like say Emerl decides to create it on Mori's head but as he does so Mori moves his head to the side. The attack doesn't seem like it would follow him and instead would explode where Emerl wanted to create it, allowing Mori to avoid it. Especially if Mori starts moving after it's created but before it explodes.

And interruption is also a really good point. That seemed to have been a major weakness of the attack gameplay wise and Mori has a ton of stuff to use here (lightning from his cloud, Yeoui extend, 7th owner, speed amps, etc)

The hypothetical multiplier isn't accepted. It's just to demonstrate that if it were quantified, it'd be in that range for statuing peeps.

Yeah I agree it'd definitely statue people. I mean that's what it seems to do in the cutscenes.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I've seen him use of the stuff like the force field or spears so he definitely uses that in character. But specifically the time hax like time stop should essentially make him unstoppable yet I couldn't find anything about him using those.

I don't think Shadow's time stopping moves are in Sonic Battle. Emerl copied it, but it's not a move that exists inside of Battle. That's why I brought up game mechanics. Because several character's are missing their most iconic stuff because this game wanted to be a more experimental 2.5D arena fighter. So even stuff that should be like opening moves aren't used throughout it. But as you saw, even from the limited moves, he did use Chaos Control's applications. I think it'd be safe to say he'd use time stop stuff if copying his opponent wasn't working (Thus no making an upgraded version of their moveset like what he did against Sonic).

What I mean by homing is that it follows you as you move after it's been activated. So like say Emerl decides to create it on Mori's head but as he does so Mori moves his head to the side. The attack doesn't seem like it would follow him and instead would explode where Emerl wanted to create it, allowing Mori to avoid it. Especially if Mori starts moving after it's created but before it explodes.

And interruption is also a really good point. That seemed to have been a major weakness of the attack gameplay wise and Mori has a ton of stuff to use here (lightning from his cloud, Yeoui extend, 7th owner, speed amps, etc)

Tbf, I think how it spawns is moreso do to game mechanics. I do think the intent was he just snaps, and the attacks spawns wherever he wants. Which is typically on enemies since it blasts them away. That same even moreso to be the intent since you can choose where to spawn it based on what direction you hold, and you can also choose where to spawn it anywhere on the map if you hold the special move button down, and use the movements buttons to choose where to spawn it. Which he then snaps and spawns it there. I don't think the intent was Shadow spends 30 seconds choosing where to spawn it very slowly and then snaps to activate it. Because then it'd be a useless move. I think the intent is that it's just a snap of the fingers. Because the description of the move explicitly states with the snap of a finger, he induces Chaos Control. Which is consistent with Chaos Control's other applications that are also all instant, and either use a vocal command, or are thought-based (Such as teleportation and his time stop).

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't think Shadow's time stopping moves are in Sonic Battle. Emerl copied it, but it's not a move that exists inside of Battle. That's why I brought up game mechanics. Because several character's are missing their most iconic stuff because this game wanted to be a more experimental 2.5D arena fighter. So even stuff that should be like opening moves aren't used throughout it. But as you saw, even from the limited moves, he did use Chaos Control's applications. I think it'd be safe to say he'd use time stop stuff if copying his opponent wasn't working (Thus no making an upgraded version of their moveset like what he did against Sonic).

Yeah that's understandable but the issue is that we are left with no information on whether it's a gameplay limitation or an in-character limitation, or if there's simply something stopping him from using it. Like how base Sonic doesn't BFR people in character needing to be bloodlusted in vs threads to ide it.

Because I mean, could anyone Emerl fought realistically have done anything if Emerl stopped time and punched them 100000000000x in the face with a spindash or other chaos attacks? If not why didn't he do so, and why would he do so here?

Because if he does in character just stop time and swarm the opponent with spacetime dura neg then it's a pretty quick stomp, it's just that I couldn't find him doing that.

Tbf, I think how it spawns is moreso do to game mechanics. I do think the intent was he just snaps, and the attacks spawns wherever he wants. Which is typically on enemies since it blasts them away. That same even moreso to be the intent since you can choose where to spawn it based on what direction you hold, and you can also choose where to spawn it anywhere on the map if you hold the special move button down, and use the movements buttons to choose where to spawn it. Which he then snaps and spawns it there. I don't think the intent was Shadow spends 30 seconds choosing where to spawn it very slowly and then snaps to activate it.

I'm not saying Shadow spends a long time choosing the destination, just that he does choose a destination rather than the attack automatically homing in on you.

I'm saying this because there are people with similar stuff that gets dodged in GoH. People like Satan could dodge omnidirectional sound waves or spikes that spawn inside of the target, and Mori is much more skilled than Satan. So if there is any sort of opportunity to dodge, block, or generally defend, Mori should be more than capable of doing so.

Because then it'd be a useless move. I think the intent is that it's just a snap of the fingers. Because the description of the move explicitly states with the snap of a finger, he induces Chaos Control. Which is consistent with Chaos Control's other applications that are also all instant, and either use a vocal command, or are thought-based (Such as teleportation and his time stop).

I mean given that Shadow basically never uses it in other games (at least from what I've seen, but he certainly didn't use it in his latest standalone game) I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't intended to be some super powerful attack. Otherwise it'd make his chaos projectiles that actually have to travel pretty redundant.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Yeah that's understandable but the issue is that we are left with no information on whether it's a gameplay limitation or an in-character limitation, or if there's simply something stopping him from using it. Like how base Sonic doesn't BFR people in character needing to be bloodlusted in vs threads to ide it.

Because I mean, could anyone Emerl fought realistically have done anything if Emerl stopped time and punched them 100000000000x in the face with a spindash or other chaos attacks? If not why didn't he do so, and why would he do so here?

Because if he does in character just stop time and swarm the opponent with spacetime dura neg then it's a pretty quick stomp, it's just that I couldn't find him doing that.

The people Emerl beat he obviously doesn't need time hax for since he beat them. The people who beat him? Maybe? Sonic beats Shadow despite all his Chaos Control shenanigans. Tho tbf, usually Chaos Control is depicted as working for a few seconds (in-game, 10 seconds. However, in other cases, it seems to be dependent on the user wanting to resume time). Also tbh, I don't think Shadow should even have dura neg via the space-time shit. The space-time warping attacks just cause explosive damage that knock foes away.

I'm not saying Shadow spends a long time choosing the destination, just that he does choose a destination rather than the attack automatically homing in on you.

I'm saying this because there are people with similar stuff that gets dodged in GoH. People like Satan could dodge omnidirectional sound waves or spikes that spawn inside of the target, and Mori is much more skilled than Satan. So if there is any sort of opportunity to dodge, block, or generally defend, Mori should be more than capable of doing so.

I guess. But a snap seems like a quicker action than moving your entire body away from an explosion that can be spawned directly on you.

I mean given that Shadow basically never uses it in other games (at least from what I've seen, but he certainly didn't use it in his latest standalone game) I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't intended to be some super powerful attack. Otherwise it'd make his chaos projectiles that actually have to travel pretty redundant.

Shadow doesn't use a lot of abilities again that appear in games once tbf. That said, it not appearing again imo shouldn't take away from the ability itself when almost NOTHING from that game returned at all. Chaos Spears are also better overall since they have much more versatility. He can summon a lot more, have them home in on enemies, induce paralysis, power null, amongst a list of many other things. Btw, what did you think of Shadow Generations? Pretty fun?

 

[DavidTPPM]

The people Emerl beat he obviously doesn't need time hax for since he beat them.

Well sure but wouldn't it be infinitely easier to just stop time and yank Knuckles in the face instead of actually fighting him?

The people who beat him? Maybe? Sonic beats Shadow despite all his Chaos Control shenanigans. Tho tbf, usually Chaos Control is depicted as working for a few seconds (in-game, 10 seconds. However, in other cases, it seems to be dependent on the user wanting to resume time).

Yeah but with Shadow it often felt to me more like PIS than Sonic somehow countering timestop hax and similar stuff. Also in the one game I did play as shadow so far you needed to grab a certain power up to activate timestop so I'm not sure about it's limitations.

Also tbh, I don't think Shadow should even have dura neg via the space-time shit. The space-time warping attacks just cause explosive damage that knock foes away.

Yeah it's probably not intended as dura neg but the wiki treats it as such

I guess. But a snap seems like a quicker action than moving your entire body away from an explosion that can be spawned directly on you.

Yeah but Mori has incredible analytical prediction and speed amps. So he would know Emerl is about to use an attack and use idk, bobup for example to zoom out of that place

Shadow doesn't use a lot of abilities again that appear in games once tbf. That said, it not appearing again imo shouldn't take away from the ability itself when almost NOTHING from that game returned at all.

Yeah you're right, I'm just addressing you saying that the ability wouldn't be super useful if it was easy to avoid.

Btw, what did you think of Shadow Generations? Pretty fun?

Yeah it was really good. It's why I also bought Frontiers afterwards (tho I'm not even close to finishing that yet). Although I must say I found the Shadow portion of the game a lot more fun that the Sonic portion of the game.

 

[M2u12]

I'm saying this because there are people with similar stuff that gets dodged in GoH. People like Satan could dodge omnidirectional sound waves or spikes that spawn inside of the target

Did he ever do something like that? I don't remember at all.

Speed mode is a blitz tier amp that massively upscales from a 48x multiplier

This too, when did Speed Mode upscale from a 48x multiplier?

(I hate my goldfish memory )

 

[DavidTPPM]

Did he ever do something like that? I don't remember at all.

It's really a blink and you'll miss it moment.
When Mujin and Satan point their open hand towards their opponents they spawn spikes inside of their body.
Satan is shown dodging some invisible attack when Mujin does that exact hand gesture which leads me to believe he dodged the spikes spawning inside of him.

This too, when did Speed Mode upscale from a 48x multiplier?

This one is a bit more complicated. Remember my not-yet-proposed MK multiplier argument? Where base Mori with a 48 jeabongchim multiplier kicks Manjin who causally reacts, blocks the attack with 1 hand, and even shit talks Mori for being weak, but Mori literally the next panel after that loses the jeabongchim multiplier and instead activates the monkey king mode which allows him to blitz and damage Manjin?

Basically when Mori fights Dean we get a statement that base Dean is slower than base Mori, but when Mori activates his monkey king mode, Dean matches his speed with armorsuits speed mode.

So it's basically speed mode > monkey king mode >>> 48x jeabongchim = 48x multiplier

 

[M2u12]

Basically when Mori fights Dean we get a statement that base Dean is slower than base Mori, but when Mori activates his monkey king mode, Dean matches his speed with armorsuits speed mode.

Wait, don't Mori couldn't use Monkey King Mode at that time? Since his power had been seal Include Monkey King Mode too.

Edit: I check ch 382, he didn't use Monkey King Mode but he used Mori jin Mode.

 

[Ebihara]

I read like 80% of this but I kinda zoned out at some point... Can someone tldr me cause seems was some confosuion on how emerl fights in charcter and what moves they have?

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Since Emerl copies the physiologies of stuff, couldn't he mimic and fire the Final Egg Blaster's big ass laser that allowed it to destroy constellations at Mori? Especially since it's like 38289.5290306x above his own speed.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Wait, don't Mori couldn't use Monkey King Mode at that time? Since his power had been seal Include Monkey King Mode too.

What? No they just started calling it Mori Jin state or Jacheondaeseong state instead since it resembles how he looked back then. But it's not him just literally turning into "Mori Jin" base because that doesn't have the fiery red eyes and golden pupils which are the only actual visual representation of his monkey form.

I read like 80% of this but I kinda zoned out at some point... Can someone tldr me cause seems was some confosuion on how emerl fights in charcter and what moves they have?

Uhh so basically Emerl technically has time stop hax which Mori has no counters to, meaning they would let Emerl no diff stomp. But Emerl has never actually used any sort of time manip hax in character, neither in a cutscene nor as a part of his moveset gameplay wise despite it being super helpful.

So the the current conversation was mostly about whether Emerl would actually use them here or not

 

[DavidTPPM]

Since Emerl copies the physiologies of stuff, couldn't he mimic and fire the Final Egg Blaster's big ass laser that allowed it to destroy constellations at Mori? Especially since it's like 38289.5290306x above his own speed.

Well they're both relative in stats and constellation destruction is only in 4-A to 3-C ranges on its own, so I don't really see how that'd be better than chaos hax or straight up physical attacks

 

[M2u12]

What? No they just started calling it Mori Jin state or Jacheondaeseong state instead since it resembles how he looked back then. But it's not him just literally turning into "Mori Jin" base because that doesn't have the fiery red eyes and golden pupils which are the only actual visual representation of his monkey form.

Oh really? I just found out LMAO. I mean, in the profile it says "higher with Mori Jin Form" something like that, so I thought he just literally transformed into Mori Jin. Thanks for telling me LoL.