Durability  Striking Strength?

[DontTalk]

Soooo... this is about a Standard in scaling Character stats that LordAizenSama brought up in a discussion recently that I didn't knew was used by people and that I am rather sceptical about.

The Standard in question is that for characters generally it is so that if they have a Striking Strength of Y the durability must be equal to Y or higher.

So for example of some character has Universe level+ Striking strength, but no durability feats, he would still be ranked as having Universe level+ durability because of his Striking Strength.


Now initially I wanted to explain right in the head of the thread why I am rather opposed to that idea, but in order to hold this short and to see how necessary that is first let me instead start by asking two questions.

1. Do you use that standard to this point or in other words is it well established and I just missed it this whole time?

2. Which is the reasoning that shows that scaling like that would be legitimate?

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmmm...

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Glass cannons have higher AP than Durability, but mostly because they have a not-physical power, or their strength comes from a Weapon.


I think that a melee character should be able to withstand the force of it own punches, since if not, it hands or arms would just blow up.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, actually, I just put in the ST what the character has showed (if destroyed a door is Class KJ level, and if destroyed a building is Class GJ), the ST of the profiles made by me never scaled Durability to ST nor viseversa, in order to reduce inconsistence.

Also, just a opinion, maybe would be better to clasific ST in force instead of energy (at least than that hit cause a common explosion), since in real life martian artist and boxer's strike are measured in force

 

[Thebluedash]

If my punches are Town level, for example, and I have a durability of Building level. Wouldn't I literally break my arm every time my punch connects?

Also Saikou from chat has made a good point

"Just that out of sheer logic Your punches is at the epicenter of a physical attack So it should be able to whistand the hit It seems unlogical to do so otherwise"

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I completely agree with Blue. If you punch with the force of 10 Kilotons, and only human Human level durability, then the force of the punch would kill you.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I don't remember it being a standard or anything, but logic does say that you have to be able to endure the force of your own punch, else you break your hand (but then again, do normal humans really have AP higher than durability if they can break their hand by punching a wall?).

Though, glass cannons tend to not have physical attacks (or rather, direct ones) be the one rated for their AP.

Deku is a clear-cut example of a glass cannon.

 

[Ryukama]

As Antvasima has put down in the note for our Durability page:

"Logically, characters capable of physically achieving a certain degree of energy output, must be able to at least withstand a comparable amount of damage, or their bodies would break apart from the strain and automatic counterforce, whenever they exert themselves."

If a character is able to physically exert such energy, logically their bodies should be able to withstand the force as well. Or like what Aiden, Blue and Dark said, these characters would end themselves each time they tried throwing a strike.

I feel that a character's physically AP and dura should only not be scaled if the series itself explicitly says that (somehow) they can't handle being hit by the power they physically give out.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

The only exception could be something like if the verse has a special ability or something that protect the user to be uninjured from it owns physical attacks

 

[Lina_Shields]

Newton's third law of motion states that:

For every action, there is an equal and opposite Reaction

This means that:

• Action = Reaction. If you strike something with enough force to hurt something, the same amount of force would be directed back towards the user.
• If a character's AP is mainly derived from physical blows, the consensus is that: AP = Striking Strength = Durability.

For example, if you strike someone with Town level durability to the point that you can hurt them, the kinetic energy of said strike you released would be released back. This means that if you strike someone with enough force but your arms aren't durable enough to absorb the reaction, your arms will literally explode, to put it lightly.

This also means that physically matching an opponent with an AP of a certain level would give that said character the same level of durability, for withstanding the strikes of said opponent.

The exceptions to this would be for characters who use long-ranged weapons, or for characters that are able to ignore durability, via weapons, or physical strikes.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I know I've already given my thoughts on this but I agree with Ryu and Lina.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

A town level punch would highly imply at least a town level durability, unless the AP is not direct (summons, weapons) or the AP is a super special attack made by a glass canon.


I agree with Lina and Ryu here.

 

[Antvasima]

Given that I wrote the note that Ryukama cited above, I obviously agree with most of what has been mentioned here.

 

[Lina_Shields]

It seems that DT has mentioned the word "Universe level+", meaning that at this point, determining the potency of strikes may become wonky due to the laws of physics not being applicable at that point.

However, most characters that are in Tier 2, or above, are most likely to be 4-Dimensional, thus they would view our dimension system as an infinitely flat plane. This would have to mean that any type of movement (including kinetic energy) that they make would be considered impossible to measure via our laws of physics.

Thus, any character that is in Tier 2, or above, should have Immeasurable Striking Strength.

Thoughts, DT?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, any character that is physically Low 2-C, due to a higher-dimensional nature, or/and can withstand attacks from similarly powerful beings, should have comparable durability. There are various characters that are physically comparatively unimpressive, but are capable of feat of this scale.

 

[DontTalk]

Didn't know we actually had that written down somehwere... Either way to explain my arguments against the standards non the less:


First regarding Universe level+ (since that was mentioned on purpose). As mentioned by Lina the Laws of physics at that stage don't apply in the first place. For 4 dimensional characters that wouldn't be a problem, but I disagree with the notion that most Tier 2 characters are 4-D.

I don't know a single Tier 2 that is actually explicitly mentioned to be 4-D. Most characters at the level are in my experience 3-D with powers that can destroy timelines, at times even physically, and often also with durability to match that.

So I really don't see any reason of it applying to them.


Now regarding Newtons third law: That is mostly true. I say mostly, since we are talking about force here. Speaking in terms of energy the arm would only tank its own energy when punching something unmoveable. That is probably the difference between punching the air full force and punching a brick wall. Only the latter will break your fingers.


The reason why I am opposed to that standard is of different nature though. I essentially think it is like calculating speed from stiking strength: In theory possible, but in practice fiction considers the stats seperate.

Now I could bring up some explicit examples, but maybe some more general principles:

-Every RPG has the attack and durability stats seperate and for physical attackers it isn't rare to have lower durability than Striking Strength (AP)

-That also extends to other media that give out stats for characters, like the stat sheets one finds in manga at times. For example Jojo's stat sheets are used for scaling. Purple Haze has a Destructive Power ranking of A (About Multi-City Block level) and a durability of E (Below average human level).

-Characters basically never show that they recieve any force back. Technically if they have to endure their own attack strength that would mean that they at least get blown back a bit, liek if punched.

-Say two characters of equal stats are fighting. Scaling like given would result in following implication: A punches B => A can take his own Striking strength without any damage.

B punches A and A gets damage => B has Striking Strength greater than A's durability => B has durability greater than A's Striking Strength.

B took damage from A's punches => A has greater Striking Strength than B's durability.

Which would in total imply A has greater Striking Strength then himself.

Or in other words technically a character would have to take at least some damage every time he punches something, which is strange.

-For every physically fighting fiction that has some designated defensive characters this doesn't make sense story wise, because: The characters designated for offense could harm a defensive characters (unless the defensive character is so superior that he can not be defeated). In that case if we scale their offensive power to their defensive one per default that means that the offensive characters have better defenses than defensive characters per default, making defensive characters useless.


So I think you can see why I think it is a bit counter intuitive to apply that standard in case of many fictional fighters.

Well, if the general consensus is to keep that Standard that is fine as well. I just have to do a few durability upgrades then...

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I thought this was simple logic and was being applied.

How can a character have Universe level+ striking strength?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kkapoios

Presumably if it's the type of character who punches people on a universe busting level (i.e. TTGL).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree that fiction recurrently treat striking strength and durability as unrelated to each other. The Marvel handbooks are proof of that. However, please take into account that we do not have the time and energy to revise 9000 profiles to suddenly keep the two statistics entirely separate.

 

[DontTalk]

^Well, that's a good standpoint from a practical perspective. I didn't know that it was this established when making this thread.

So in that case I should upgrade characters durability for which I have to this point kept it seperately then for now?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Well, if they are too many profiles, we can help

 

[DontTalk]

Nah, I don't have a big list sponanously (have to search through the characters I have managed to this point and see who applies).

Just want an official word that there won't be change for now and that I can get started on doing that.

 

[Antvasima]

No, my apologies, but we cannot start changing the profiles.

We would have no idea how to rescale most of them in any other way, and just end up with thousands of pages with "Unknown" durability statistics.

It is not practically feasible, and would gain us nothing for the enormous effort. In fact, we would end up much worse off than when we started, and face an uproar of antipathy as a counter-reaction.

 

[DontTalk]

I don't mean rescaling characters to a new standard, but changing profiles to the current Standard, if the current one wasn't applied due to me not knowing the standard.

Kusuo Saiki for example I have currently ranked as having Wall level durability even though he has demonstrated at least City Block level Striking Strength.

So I want to change his durability to City Block level, because of his Striking Strength.

And similar fixes might have to be done for some other profiles I created.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Sorry. That is no problem.