Dragon Quest canonicity?

[FanofRPGs]

First off, there is no defined canon in Dragon Quest, and there is nothing that is truly "canon" or "noncanon". So there is the main series, of course, but for Dragon Quest IX and X in particular there are bonus and secret bosses you can fight, some of which include past bosses (Hence, they are called Legacy Bosses). Now in these battles, along with the classic abilities and behavior they showcase, they also have new abilities and skills added on, most of which usually make sense and are consistent to the character. For Nokturnus in particular, assuming I am getting if right, he seems to be able to travel between universes and has no true form, so his appearance in these other games can be explained by that as he has no real "origin" game and can appear in all. Also, in several other spinoffs (As said, there is no statement denouncing their canonicty), they too there have new special abilities, and the Monsters games in particular was made soley to expand lore for monsters which we usually knew little about in biology/mindset/power prior. Also, there are descriptions of lore given for them for most games. This is not a case of scaling to other characters, as them being beaten or not can be taken as PIS and game mehcanics, but merely if they can get feats from other games, where they should not even be there. Going by a case-by-case basis, if an added feature these games give to a character prove to be consistent, could I include them for Dragon Quest profiles.

 

[FanofRPGs]

bump

 

[SomebodyData]

For the DQIX part, no I don't think so, unless the bonus bosses are mentioned in the main plot.

As for the spin-offs, can you prove that they're canon?

 

[FanofRPGs]

For the DQIX part, no I don't think so, unless the bonus bosses are mentioned in the main plot.
As for the spin-offs, can you prove that they're canon?

There has been no defined canon at all for Dragon Quest. Only one that MIGHT count are direct spinoffs such as Dragon Quest Monsters 1+2 for GBC or 3DS, Dragon Quest Caravan Heart, and Young Yangus.

What I am asking is not if characters can scale, but if we can have a boss or villain or monster reoccuring in several games, wether their appearance itself is canon, can have their included spells and abilities and feat statements in that game.

There are some things I can assume are non-canon/game mechanics, such as all bonus bosses having similar stats regardless of their power, and recipes needed to fuse them.

 

[FanofRPGs]

To make it clearer, there is nothing that would directly make these statements noncanon, as there is no even real canon policy, but should we give these characters abilties and statistics in other games if it bears consistency? Or would it not be a good idea?

 

[EsotericDichotomy]

I do not know how this wiki treats canon per se, I know there is a bunch of hubbub over certain characters with animated and printed versions with different abilities, not being represented on the wiki.

If it were up to me, I would just include an additional Key with their DQIX forms, and note somewhere that it is a Bonus form.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I do not know how this wiki treats canon per se, I know there is a bunch of hubbub over certain characters with animated and printed versions with different abilities, not being represented on the wiki.
If it were up to me, I would just include an additional Key with their DQIX forms, and note somewhere that it is a Bonus form.

So

x forms | spinoff abilities?

Maybe I could just put a note/do it in a case-by-case basis?

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm about to head to the airport, so I'll comment properly once I get back home. I'll respond around 7:00 p.m. New York time

 

[FanofRPGs]

I'm about to head to the airport, so I'll comment properly once I get back home. I'll respond around 7:00 p.m. New York time

Do you mean 7:00 AM? Or do you mean pm tomorrow?

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Fan

He means tomorrow.

 

[FanofRPGs]

@Fan
He means tomorrow.

oh, okay.

 

[FanofRPGs]

bump

 

[ALRF]

I feel like as long it's not contradicted by the original one in term of Lore and abilities (i don't think stats of the bosses are a factor in tiers in this game, correct me if i'm wrong thought), then i think it's ok to add those to their profiles.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I think too that it should be based on consistency of the potrayal of such boss in the other media, and if it does not contradict the original source (I.E having a villain completely act, talk, or behave differently), then what was added could be included.

Furthermore, I did not delve into this, but in the monsters games. One is supposed to catch monsters (ALA Pokemon), and can then fuse them with others. Now, I discussed with ALRF if such thing could be seen as canon. As some combinations end up with characters who would be weaker by our standards (The Zenith Dragon requires Nokturnus, though Zenith Dragon could only barely handle Estark in the lore whilst Nokturnus is supposed to be far superior to Estark. Furthermore, Rigor Mortex, a tier 7 being, requires Zenith Dragon), and it was agreed such things can be taken as game mechanics, and only canonly stated recipes, such as that of the Mechanowyrm (The rival tells you in a conversational way after beating her). So, synthesis and breeding will be discredited unless consistent, and actually stated.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don't think that the bonus bosses in DQIX should scale, but I'm cool with the Monster's thing.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I don't think that the bonus bosses in DQIX should scale, but I'm cool with the Monster's thing.

But could their statements and abilities be included in their profile?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I...guess?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm cool with using Monsters stuff for profiles, since they just expand on the lore. Neutral on using the bonus encounter stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

I also find it uncertain to scale from bonus bosses from other games, especially if the scale of the games is very different.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I also find it uncertain to scale from bonus bosses from other games, especially if the scale of the games is very different.

I think I misworded it. I don't want to scale the bosses based off of it, I wanted to see if I could include abilities, and lore descriptions, of such monsters, if it is consistent and faithful to the what the monster is about/his power. I would not scale any character who fights them in other games with it. There is no defined canon in the series too.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I edited the OP for clarity

 

[FanofRPGs]

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[Antvasima]

I do not think that we can give the protagonists abilities from other games either, if that is what you mean.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I do not think that we can give the protagonists abilities from other games either, if that is what you mean.

they are not protagomists, but villains and bosses, whose potrayal in later games usually is the same but with more abilities still in theme with their character. And given that we allow abilities and pokedex entries for pokemon in later games, wouldn't this be the same case?

Can we at least include what is given for Nokturnus, who is stated to travel between worlds and universes and can appear anywhere?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. Perhaps the administrators that have previously replied here are able to help out.

 

[FanofRPGs]

@Darkanine and @Reppunzan (When he arrives) should help clearing it up, being they have played Dragon Quest games

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'd personally be okay with using their lore descriptions and new abilities, though the scaling does get rather tricky. For example, Rhapthorne is said to be able to completely contort the space-time continuum, but I'm not 100% sure he was on that level in his actual appearance (he might've been since he was stronger than the Sages, who transcended space-time I believe, but not completely sure).

Maybe have two keys? One for original and second for IX?

 

[FanofRPGs]

I'd personally be okay with using their lore descriptions and new abilities, though the scaling does get rather tricky. For example, Rhapthorne is said to be able to completely contort the space-time continuum, but I'm not 100% sure he was on that level in his actual appearance (he might've been since he was stronger than the Sages, who transcended space-time I believe, but not completely sure).
Maybe have two keys? One for original and second for IX?

The DQVI sages =/= DQVIII sages

Rhaphorne has this quote in another game though (Dragon Quest Monsters 2 3D), and he stated he was going to merge two universes together

So a tabber like

Original (Including monsters if it is for Zenithian Saga) | Other (Including Dragon Quest Heroes, Monsters, IX, X, Battle Road Victory)

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I see, my bad. I'm a casual fan so my knowledge of the lore is severely lacking.

I think Monsters could be in the "Original" Key.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I see, my bad. I'm a casual fan so my knowledge of the lore is severely lacking.
I think Monsters could be in the "Original" Key.

Okay, and going by what ALRF told me about Nokturnus's dialogue in DQX, it seems he is a wonderer across universes, and him being one incarnation who can appear across all the games does not seem so strange

 

[Sera_EX]

Yumi-tan understands the definitive canon for Dragon Quest. I asked her to reply to this thread.

 

[FanofRPGs]

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[FanofRPGs]

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[FanofRPGs]

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[Reppuzan]

From my experience, it's generally ill-advised to scale characters to others in crossovers unless they are extremely consistent across all their incarnations. As a result, I don't think we should upgrade all the characters to DQIX levels or vice versa.

I wouldn't mind adding the abilities they've had in later appearances though.

 

[FanofRPGs]

From my experience, it's generally ill-advised to scale characters to others in crossovers unless they are extremely consistent across all their incarnations. As a result, I don't think we should upgrade all the characters to DQIX levels or vice versa.
I wouldn't mind adding the abilities they've had in later appearances though.

yeah, that is what I meant, scaling would be bad, I don't think a tier 2 Dragon Lord would make all that much sense, but including his and other monsters' abilities (Him not having them in the old games can be chocked up as ingame limitations) throughout the series should be fine as long as it makes sense and is directly for them.

 

[FanofRPGs]

So it is agreed profiles will work like this?

-Consisent statements and descriptions about directly them will be included as feats

-Abilities given to them, given they are consistent with the character, will be included

-Scaling all legacy bosses off eachother will not be allowed, and each one must be a case-by-case basis

-Breeding/Synthesizing will not be allowed to scale for monsters, unless it is actually canonly stated in dialogue, and the monster is known to be superior going by its origin source

 

[FanofRPGs]

bump

 

[Yumi-tan]

Canon? There no actual canon. "Canon" or "Non-Canon" neither is stated really. So everything can be canon but problem lie in continuity and crossovers usually mess with continuity. Don't really care about powerscaling, you do whatever with powerscaling.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Canon? There no actual canon. "Canon" or "Non-Canon" neither is stated really. So everything can be canon but problem lie in continuity and crossovers usually mess with continuity. Don't really care about powerscaling, you do whatever with powerscaling.

Thanks Yumi.