Downstreamers VS Oblivion

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Speed equalized

Both at 1-A

 

[ProspectX]

Possibly 1-A against someone who is strictly 1-A?..hmm

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Possibly" doesn't affect the actual stats. Someone 1-A and someone Possibly 1-A are as strong as eachothers.

 

[ProspectX]

Okay, but im not sure if the OP is putting the whole DT's race against oblivion.

 

[PaChi2]

just curious.

 

[ProspectX]

And why is speed equalized?. It's not relevant when it comes to 1-A.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

Okay, but im not sure if the OP is putting the whole DT's race against oblivion.

even if its against entire race, I'm under the impression DS are weakest among tier 1-A. even weaker normal 1-A too if I understand things right :

But to be level 1-A they need to be able to warp non-mathematical existence as well. So Downstreamers are higher than normal 1-B but lower than true 1-A.

Downstreamers are not the only 1-A(Heck he not even legit 1-A and his reason for his possible 1-A Tier just sounds like really powerful High 1-B) or above that can increasing his power over time since Bern, Lambda, Hajun, or EGD can do that too.

and Oblivion is a normal true 1-A. Oblivion also exist before marvel multiverse, everything in existence is just his shadow and everything will eventually return to him. Oblivion seems like source of everything to me.

Oblivion wins handily imo.

 

[Schnee_One]

There's no such thing as a "Normal" or "True" 1A, they are both Baseline.

Anyway, inconclusive, they're not killing each other anytime soon.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

There's no such thing as a "Normal" or "True" 1A, they are both Baseline.

i meant I thought DS are 'semi tier 1-A', while Oblivion is 'true tier 1-A'.

then again, iirc you are either 1-A or you aren't (no middle-inbetween) so you maybe right.

Anyway, inconclusive, they're not killing each other anytime soon.

so numerical advantage DS have is irrelevant then?

edit : huh, weird, DS have transduality but no true-godly regen. i thought these two go together. they may not have transduality, it is reserved for above-baseline 1-a after all.

 

[ProspectX]

and Oblivion is a normal true 1-A. Oblivion also exist before marvel multiverse, everything in existence is just his shadow and everything will eventually return to him. Oblivion seems like source of everything to me.

Oblivion wins handily imo.


Oblivion is Marvels personification of nothingness, i would say that he is barely above baseline 1-A. DS have a large set of decent hax including (possibly) transduality, so i'm not sure if DS can counter his void manipulation.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

DS have a large set of decent hax including (possibly) transduality, so i'm not sure if DS can counter his void manipulation.

yeah, not sure how transduality supposed be applicable in battle except by granting true-godly regen. and DS only have high-godly, same as Oblivion. so transdual might as well be useless imo.
and as you said, Oblivion is embodiment of nothingness too.

 

[Desiromaster]

Going to agree wit Gargoyle One. Inconclusive. Then again, I thought fights with 1-As v 1-As weren't allowed.

 

[TheSandman31]

The only reason why the Downstreamers arent straight up 1-A is because they are very vague.Nothing to do how strong they are

But if we go by feats the Downstreamers seems more impressive to me since they transcend an infinite number of type IV Multiverses( a multiverse where anything that can be described by mathematics can be equally real)

 

[PaChi2]

werent 1-A battles banned?

 

[TheSandman31]

They weren't banned I think but were discouraged unless the people debating knows about the characters because 1-A battles usually devolves into a shitstorm

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

But if we go by feats the Downstreamers seems more impressive to me since they transcend an infinite number of type IV Multiverses( a multiverse where anything that can be described by mathematics can be equally real)

so, different levels of transcendence?

still, even fodder 1-A transcend concept of dimensions. if this type iv thing is still constrained by dimensions then there'd be basically no difference in transcending normal dimensions to transcending type iv dimensions.

 

[TheSandman31]

Yes that is the case

I'm just saying this because you said that DS are weaker than normal 1-As and the weakest 1-A which is false when they have greater feats that back up their 1-A status than Oblivion

Oblivion is above Marvel multiverse, an infinite dimensional multiverse.

The Downstreamers are above the Ultimate Manifold.An infinite number of type 4 multiverse ( 1 type 4 multiverse is greater than the Marvel Multiverse considering that a type 4 multiverse contains every possible multiverse that can be described by math including an infinite dimensional multiverse like Marvels)

DS>Oblivion by shown feats

So I dont know where the Downstreamers are the weakest 1-A coming from when they have greater feats than Oblivion

They're only possibly 1-A because they are very vague (not because they're weak or anything ) .But we are using the DS 1-A interpretation here or it would be a stomp

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

The Downstreamers are above the Ultimate Manifold.An infinite number of type 4 multiverse ( 1 type 4 multiverse is greater than the Marvel Multiverse considering that a type 4 multiverse contains every possible multiverse that can be described by math including an infinite dimensional multiverse like Marvels)

'kay, I get it. DS have more variety in their multiverse than marvel. and it sounds like DS can make whole marvelverse infinite times over. but I doubt every individual DS is able to make infinite type 4 multiverses (maybe an individual can only make 1 type 4 multiverse?)

that aside, isn't infinite dimensional multiverse the 'highest' one there is? more variety means just that DS have multiple 'lower' kind of multiverse. thus wouldn't really make a difference in power.

unless if level iv multiverse have something above 'infinite dimensional multiverse'... dimensionless multiverse/outerverse is one thing come to mind, but i'm not sure if it can be described by math or not...

DS>Oblivion by shown feats

DS make better and bigger multiverse than Oblivion, yes.

but isn't that just referring to their high 1-b feat? I mean, isn't tier 1-a battles supposed to be above creation and destruction of dimensional multiverse?

then again, if that's the case then we're back at 'level/degree of transcendence'. DS might be superior in that, hmm...

So I dont know where the Downstreamers are the weakest 1-A coming from when they have greater feats than Oblivio

well, someone said that to be true 1-A you need to be able to warp non-mathematical things as well, and DS are all about mathematics. hence, not true 1-A.

They're only possibly 1-A because they are very vague (not because they're weak or anything ) .But we are using the DS 1-A interpretation here or it would be a stomp

that so, well, if you are correct then it seems DS seem have higher quality and quantity... oh well, its just oblivion against whole race anyway, so its not surprising if oblivion get overwhelmed,,

 

[ProspectX]

that so, well, if you are correct then it seems DS seem have higher quality and quantity... oh well, its just oblivion against whole race anyway, so its not surprising if oblivion get overwhelmed,,

DT's profile is about the entire race, are they all equally powerful?

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

DT's profile is about the entire race, are they all equally powerful?

no idea, probably? i have no idea about their population. but they seem to have created infinite number of type 4 multiverse. if DT population is infinite, maybe each DT created a type 4 multiverse (probably kinda like hadou god who have their personal multiverse each).

 

[Dreaming_Serpent]

Not sure how the Downstreamers have this personally. Oblivion seems the more likely one.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

Not sure how the Downstreamers have this personally. Oblivion seems the more likely one.

reasons? i initially thought so too. are your reasons same as mine?

 

[Dreaming_Serpent]

Not sure how the Downstreamers have this personally. Oblivion seems the more likely one.

reasons? i initially thought so too. are your reasons same as mine?

Oblivion is an Eternal Concept. Even if Marvel does a poor job in explaining the extent of their powers *Cough Cough Living Tribunal Cough* Oblivion is already shown to be a FAR more powerful Marvel Abstract Concept then the likes of Eternity, Infinity, and even LT now considering how much of a jobber that dude is being.

I may be at a disadvantage since I haven't finished reading about the Downstreamers (I've just finished reading about the Xeelee Cycle and The Culture though) but I've heard countless forums talk about the extent of their power. And while it both amazing, awesome, and grand, I don't see how they can defend themselves against a/the Literal Aspect of Nonexistence especially considering how one of Oblivion's Avatars was an overpowering force compared to most Tier 2 level characters anyways.

So, I'm most likely wrong of course and I don't mind being at all, I'm just not convinced so far.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

Oblivion is an Eternal Concept. Even if Marvel does a poor job in explaining the extent of their powers *Cough Cough Living Tribunal Cough*

and how would being 'Eternal' helps, exactly? is it because you cannot erase Oblivion no matter what you do? (something to do with 'everything came and come back to Oblivion?')

or maybe are you referring to 'Archetypal/Eternal' concept of Lovecraft? it postulates that the Archetypes/Outer gods are beyond all perspectives, beyond 'self', which make them able to see everything as eternal unchanging whole (granting then Type 5 Immortality, the 'true eternal' imo)

DS also has 'no causal properties, eternal and unchanging' entities which they created if that's the case...

Oblivion is already shown to be a FAR more powerful Marvel Abstract Concept then the likes of Eternity, Infinity, and even LT now considering how much of a jobber that dude is being.

well, obviously a 1-A will be vastly more powerful than high 1-b characters...

And while it both amazing, awesome, and grand, I don't see how they can defend themselves against a/the Literal Aspect of Nonexistence

DS can defend with Transduality? I mean, unless Oblivion is transdual, oblivion cannot hope to kill transdual characters because transdual characters are beyond binary logic.

but, this quote :

especially considering how one of Oblivion's Avatars was an overpowering force compared to most Tier 2 level characters anyways.

again, overpowering Tier 2 characters isn't even a 'feat' even for fodder 1-A.

now if Oblivion is vastly superior to other 1-A... that's different story...

mind you, DS is also featless in the 'can beat another 1-A in canon' department

 

[PaChi2]

Every 1-A is transdual. Its a requirement to be transdual.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

Every 1-A is transdual. Its a requirement to be transdual.

no? where did you get that?

Transduality page : It stands to reason, that if a being possesses a nondual nature, they are outside the realms of space and time (space and time are both forms of binary reality and as such all concepts of them are limited to duality).
Therefore transduality should generally be a power reserved for Tier 1-A and above.

Simply being "within" or "outside" is not enough to qualify for transdualism, nor is simply being 1-A.

 

[Dreaming_Serpent]

+Palaeocene

So do you think it's a close call match or do you think the Downstreamers have it easy? How would the sceanrio work?

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

+Palaeocene
So do you think it's a close call match or do you think the Downstreamers have it easy? How would the sceanrio work?

well, assuming oblivion also has transduality, both seem to have created outerverse, with Oblivion embodying outerverse and see infinite dimensional reality as nothing more than shadows, implying that Oblivion is 'truer' than dimensional reality. hence, he is the source of dimensional structures.

DS created outerverse filled with 1-A-like entities their multiverses are based on. being source of everything, same as Oblivion. though, as @Sandman31 said, DS' multiverse seems to have much more variety, with marvel's 'infinite dimensional multiverse-type' being part of it. but as I said, I'm bit iffy at comparing them with their High 1-B feat.

Oblivion transcend shape, form, substance, space, time. hence, true nothingness. while DS transcend all forms of math. not sure which is more 'total' or 'higher' transcendence though. I read that only outer gods page that have description of 'transcend math and fancy alike', so DS might be on that levl. but on many pages I also found that being beyond math is any 1-A can do. so, not sure.

so, close match?

 

[Dreaming_Serpent]

I'm willing to bet i'm wrong and to be fair i'm still reading about the Manifold. So far i would bet a stalemate given how just the idea of them building an entire city on top of an observable universe and blowing up Universe size holes, they seem to be a very grand and powerful collective and unlike Marvel comics, they do a better job of explaining their power.

Which is again, a benefit of having a writer that knows what they want to write about as opposed to 6 writers who are just trying to complete a monthly.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

...they seem to be a very grand and powerful collective and unlike Marvel comics, they do a better job of explaining their power.

well, their most impressive feat actually refers to them creating type 4 multiverses which encompass all math and DS transcending them. but yes, their universal-feat is kinda impressive.

Which is again, a benefit of having a writer that knows what they want to write about as opposed to 6 writers who are just trying to complete a monthly.

haha, that, and different interpretations of many writers might end up nerfing a powerful metaphysical characters.

 

[Dreaming_Serpent]

God. I'm still upset with what they did to the Living Tribunal :<

I don't mind adding changes at all to the Marvel Cosmic Pantheon because it is a mess and it's not like the LT is my favorite, but it's supposed to be a rule that they hammer in your head over and over again that LT is the boss, only second to TOAA. He's been beat not once, not twice, over that by some guy who was eventually somehow defeated by a "Powerful" Celestial and now the new one was killed by Master Order and Lord Chaos... Look I'm just saying it's not that I don't think he's not powerful still. It's just hard to actually take it seriously now.

But yeah I've been reading about the Downstreamers now and they're super interesting. I finished the Xeelee Cycle thinking they were badass but it turns out they aren't the Top of the Sci-Fi Civilization world.

So I know it's a flawed scale, but what do you think the DS would be if you were to rank them on the Kardashev Scale?

 

[TheSandman31]

They're probably beyond the Kardashev scale since they're beyond space and time itself while the kardashev scale rank civilizations by how much energy they harness

Pre FVC is probably either Type 4(extra galactic) or type 5 (Multiversal culture)

 

[Dreaming_Serpent]

Type 6 or Type 7? Lol

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

... Look I'm just saying it's not that I don't think he's not powerful still. It's just hard to actually take it seriously now.

true. now it looks like LT is a 'fodder' just to make other characters looks impressive :lol:

But yeah I've been reading about the Downstreamers now and they're super interesting. I finished the Xeelee Cycle thinking they were badass but it turns out they aren't the Top of the Sci-Fi Civilization world.

xeelee have more books though (thus more feats). its still ongoing to boot.

So I know it's a flawed scale, but what do you think the DS would be if you were to rank them on the Kardashev Scale?

Type V definitely. its highest kardashev level iirc. being able to use and output multiple-universes-worth of energy. any multiversal civilization would be in Type V. so its not like only DS have Type V rating.

 

[ProspectX]

How were the Downstreamers presented? Are they all equal in terms of hax?, i'm sorry but i had to ask the question twice to confirm. if we assume they are then i vote for inconclusive.