DBZ Fusion Reborn - Description Addition

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

DBZ Gogeta is minimum 2-C due to his statements and scaling above SSJ4 Baby Arc Goku.

Why is this still here, this was debunked by GT Goku himself.

 

[AguilaR202]

Idk, but if the guide statement is that super janemba > Hildegarn then wether its end of Buu arc or early buu arc Goku it doesn’t make a difference for Janemba as he was toying with SSJ3 Goku either way.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Disagree with Fusion scaling and 2-C Fat Janemba

 

[Omegas03]

I agree with 2-C Fat Janemba. if toei mentioned SSJ3 Goku to compare both Super Janemba and Hirudegarn they believe M12 and M13 SSJ3 Goku to be the same in strength. There's no other way around that lol, especially when you have a 4-B SSJ2 Goku surviving more than a few seconds against a High 3-A, or a High 3-A SSJ3 Goku somehow not dying instantly to a 2-C Super Janemba.

Anyways I am neutral on the fusion scaling but ppl should revisit their scaling a bit honestly.

The first foe that Goku had compared to Buu was Rilldo. Every other he had faced at beginning of GT somehow didn't have such benchmarks or mentions about how impressive they were. The fact that Goku ALSO mentions how Super Baby Vegeta is the strongest ki he has ever felt since they have no other point of reference should be a support to at least have Vegito scale to Baby Vegeta's initial stage (which is pretty darn OP for Z standards mind you)

Toei still has fusions as powerhouses at this point, they should scale considerably higher in GT.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

One way to make 2-C Fat Janemba make sense, is to count Fusion Reborn as a separate dimension from the Toei Timeline lol

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I agree with 2-C Fat Janemba. if toei mentioned SSJ3 Goku to compare both Super Janemba and Hirudegarn they believe M12 and M13 SSJ3 Goku to be the same in strength. There's no other way around that lol, especially when you have a 4-B SSJ2 Goku surviving more than a few seconds against a High 3-A, or a High 3-A SSJ3 Goku somehow not dying instantly to a 2-C Super Janemba.

The issue is that Fusion Reborn’s currently considered canon so the SSJ3 Goku Fat Janemba fought would be the suppressed one that kept himself below/around Fat Buu’s level till he revealed otherwise in the Kaioshin Realm

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The statement says is because Janemba could give Ssj3 Goku fight. That refers to Super Janemba, as fatso couldn't land a single hit to Ssj3 Goku.

@Apex_Predator_GX mentioned that we should change Janemba's justifications, I really agree with that in the profile, the arguments in the profile seem circular.

 

[Eseseso]

Should SSJ3 Goku in Fusion Reborn scale to 2-C?

1. He possibly was referring to Kid Buu.

2. SSJ3 Goku was keeping up with Janemba and even staggered him with blows 4 times, he only lost due to Janemba using that hax sword plus his portal hax.

 

[AguilaR202]

Fusion reborn is so blatantly not canon to toei verse, even broly has less inconsistent timeline than it and it’s not considered part of it.

 

[Omegas03]

The issue is that Fusion Reborn’s currently considered canon so the SSJ3 Goku Fat Janemba fought would be the suppressed one that kept himself below/around Fat Buu’s level till he revealed otherwise in the Kaioshin Realm

Supposedly 4-B Goku and Vegeta were able to keep with a 2-C Buuhan without getting instantly vapourized in the anime, same for High 3-A SSJ3 Goku doing a supposedly better job against Buutenks than Mystic Gohan whos a 2-C too.

SSJ3 Goku should just be 2-C

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Those instances are all unironically just a result of Buu dicking around with them and not legit scaling. There's no way a serious Buuhan isn't capable of dusting SSJ1/2 Goku/Vegeta when weaker characters than him could do that to stronger characters (i.e. Gohan and Gotenks to Super Buu up to Buupiccolo).

Gohan shouldn't be 2-C at all imo but even if we say he is, there's no way SSJ3 Goku pre Kid Buu fight was stronger than him via the scene in the Kaioshin Realm where he tells Vegeta he actually suppressed his power to the point he couldn't beat Fat Buu (when we know he could've) and he acts as if it's some revelation for Vegeta, which'd be completely redundant if he already showed power above Gohan who they know can kill a Buu stronger than fatty

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Ahh I just realized Buu saga goku is 4-B High 3-A with ssj3 but post division goku is the 2-C one mb

 

[AguilaR202]

Supposedly 4-B Goku and Vegeta were able to keep with a 2-C Buuhan without getting instantly vapourized in the anime, same for High 3-A SSJ3 Goku doing a supposedly better job against Buutenks than Mystic Gohan whos a 2-C too.

SSJ3 Goku should just be 2-C

Wtf lol no.
Goku and Vegeta we’re getting slapped around casually by Buuhan, the latter was not remotely serious, staggering a character who is deliberately holding back is nothing.

SSJ3 ‘keeping up’ with buutenks is a huge stretch, he couldn’t land a single good hit except the one time buu got distracted stopping Gohan from getting the potara, there is clear disadvantage being portrayed here as he couldn’t land a single hit after that being on the complete defensive, but at the very least there is informed killing intent from Buu suggesting he isn’t holding back and considering his time limit it’s likely true.

 

[Omegas03]

Yes the first example was terrible, but SSJ3 Goku keeping up with Buutenks + how toei went out of their way to indirectly claim M12 = M13 Goku is enough for me to say Fat Janemba is solid 2-C.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

If that's true (M12 Goku = M13 Goku) then Fusion Reborn's placement in the timeline might have be reevaluated or something (not saying it isn't canon, just where it happens exactly)

Edit: Or we can just say Goku went all out against Janemba I guess even if he held back against Buu later, actually yeah I think that works the best. I concede to 2-C Fat Janemba

 

[AguilaR202]

Yes the first example was terrible, but SSJ3 Goku keeping up with Buutenks + how toei went out of their way to indirectly claim M12 = M13 Goku is enough for me to say Fat Janemba is solid 2-C.

Nope, we can’t reconcile Goku from janemba movie being the same as late buu arc Goku because it goes against our scaling.

If you want 2-C fat janemba then FR needs to be taken out of the toei timeline.

 

[Omegas03]

and then you are literally going against author statement.

Whatever you do you get contradicting feats and statements.

 

[AguilaR202]

Author statement of secondary guide going against main canon are disregarded, you can’t have your cake an eat it too, to uphold 2-C fat janemba you need to displace FR outside it’s currently accepted timeline or it as a whole.

I can only agree to 2-C Super Janemba and 2-C Gogeta because they don’t conflict with Gokus standing in the main timeline.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Why can't that just be taken as implying Goku went all out for the Janemba fight? It doesn't really conflict with the Buu Saga narratively either since Goku held back because he had an ulterior motive to have Gohan/Gotenks do it to set up as adequate protectors of Earth, that stopped being a factor for the moment when he was already dead and returned to the Afterlife.

 

[AguilaR202]

Why can't that just be taken as implying Goku went all out for the Janemba fight? It doesn't really conflict with the Buu Saga narratively either since Goku held back because he had an ulterior motive to have Gohan/Gotenks do it to set up as adequate protectors of Earth, that stopped being a factor for the moment when he was already dead and returned to the Afterlife.

Because Goku was desperate to fuse against Buutenks and Buuhan, we accept Goku got stronger than everyone else after he defused ( and went to fight a perfect clone of Ultimate Gohan in base and SSJ) if he was strong enough to fight the strongest version of Buu then he doesn’t need fusions at all.

The only narrative reason I could possibly see is that he needed fusion to save the kids from Buu and that being his plan all along, with his superiority to Buuhan not being large enough to work.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Well the alternative to fusing would've been revealing his true strength which would be off the table even at that point since he hadn't anticipated on the boys being dead and Vegito's first course of action was to try and save them.

Anime only or not the clone fight should really be revaluated since it Base or SSJ Goku pre Kid Buu fight being >Ultimate Gohan makes zero sense as much in the Anime as the Manga because the scene where he makes the reveal to Vegeta about Fat Buu is still there.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

why are you guys ignoring that OP is trying to upgrade fat janemba to low 2-C first

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh, taking the FR out of the TOEI timeline isn't exactly wrong lol.