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Darth Vader vs Lucario

Omegagoldfish said:
First and foremost, the speed calcs that differentiate Disney from EU Vader are iffy, especially considering that, unless something conflicts with canon material, it is normally considerd canon by the Star Wars fanbase as it is.
Click to expand...
Sweet. Not what it says on Vader's profile though. Doesn't really matter, speed is equalized.

Secondly, Vader does have some interesting abilities, such as Force Scream
And so does Lucario, he can literally utilize Vader's entire moveset with either Me First or Mimic. I'll let you choose. which one you like more. And even then, he doesn't even need to opt in to copy Force Scream. He can just REEEE using his own Screech to the point where Vader's ears bleed and he can barely see anything from the ensuing Vertigo thus lowering his defensive guard as intended. Then, Lucario can go to town on Vader twice as hard as before with Close Combat.

Finally, Lucario's not influencing Vader either, due to his training, so that ability is moot.
That's where I agree too. All of the numerous mind reading/precog techniques on each side cancel each other out. They don't dissapear, the fight is still a lot more technical than if they didn't have such abilities but they are not the ones that will decide this fight because both of them have precog.

But Lucario still ends up having his Fire, Void, Darkness, Vacuum, Chi manipulation, his homing missile attacks and Vader's moves on top of everything.

Lastly, whatever experience Vader has accumulated could be a tiny fraction of what Lucario has seen, considering that he could be 1000+ years old whilst living in a world that is just one continuous Dog Fight that never ends, full of beings much more versatile than anything Vader has faced with abilities he can't even imagine.
 
We never established the age of this particular combatant, and Vader's not an ameteur. I've stated before that Vader's anatomy makes his own moves rather ineffective, and Vader's armor makes fire practically useless. He's survived the vacuum of space and is steeped in the Dark Side, so darkness and vacuum attacks won't really harm him. Aura Spheres are the interesting thing, but can be blocked by Protect. If they're stopped by a physical object, they can be stopped by a lightsaber, and Vader's a master at blast deflection.
 
We never established the age of this particular combatant, and Vader's not an ameteur.
Even if we assume that a 1000 year old Lucario is a peculiarity like a century old human, on average, Lucario will still be 200-250+ years old still giving him a vast amount of experience over Vader. Unless you wanna make Lucario a one year old infant than experience goes to Lucario without a doubt. Considering that OP did indeed not state the age of Lucario a low-balled estimate like this one should be perfectly acceptable.

Vader's anatomy makes his own moves rather ineffective
But it's not his anatomy isn't it? It's his suit. In fact he's quite susceptible to having his breathing impaired, but it's his iron lung that keeps him going. That iron lung can be damaged.

He's survived the vacuum of space and is steeped in the Dark Side, so darkness and vacuum attacks won't really harm him

Vacuum attacks may have little effect on Vader while his suit is fully in tact but once it has sustained even the slightest bit of damage they should become super effective against Vader's seared lungs.

And for the Dark Side remark, I can only assumme that this contradiction with what you previously said is born out of forgetfulness, here's what you said:

It's likely a Psychic attack (in Pokemon), in which case it hits neutrally. The Dark Side is a way of using the Force, not a different force altogether.
Therefore Darkness manipulation should still have an effect on Vader.
And again Lucario still has his vastly more versatile martial arts + agility and the ability to induce paralysis with Force Palm.
 
We're ignoring the fact that the lightsaber's pretty much an instant kill anyway, while you're bringing up valid points, Vader will likey be able to take several dozen shots. Lucario, on the other hand, with its poor defenses, and the lightsaber's probable typing, won't survive the first shot.


Furthermore, Vader's breathing apparatus is durable to a ludicrous extent. The only time I am aware it was damaged was when Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith at the time, and arguably ever, placed all of his power in trying to destroy the sensitive circuits that made Vader's suit. Even then, Vader managed to survive for about a minute longer before the machinery that made his body work finally failed. In fact, it can be argued that the reason he died so quickly is because he removed his helmet. He might have survived for longer if he stayed suited. Again, Vader's dealt with agile opponents, and has in fact been in hand to hand combat before. Lucario's more experienced, but their mutual precog sort of nullifies that gap. It's an endurance match, who will tire faster, who will slip first.

Vader's mechanical nature meant he could fight for days at a time, and has in fact, done just that. Lucario has great stamina, but can physically tire. Vader cannot, due to his mechanical nature.
 
Lucario, on the other hand, with its poor defenses, and the lightsaber's probable typing, won't survive the first shot.
Lucario has tanked sufficiently strong Fire type hits in both the anime,manga and even more so in game. He has access to moves that allow him to greatly increase his defenses to the point that he can take hits from some of the absolute strongest Fire types, who are also in this tier, with their strongest attacks and still keep going. Getting one shot by Vader is highly unlikely.

Exploiting Vader's breathing problems is only one of Lucario's options. He can always keep his range and barage with his numerous ranged attacks from afar. And still I'd argue that close combat is Lucario's quickest and most certain option in this fight.

Lucario's more experienced, but their mutual precog sort of nullifies that gap. It's an endurance match, who will tire faster, who will slip first.
I'd argue the opposite. Having precognition on both sides means that both of them are on equal footing in this regard. Whoever has more experience with a situation like this will have the upper hand. Considering how common moves like Detect and Foresight are, and further adding other moves like Mind Reader on top should mean that a centuries old pokemon like Lucario should have accumulated enough experience to know how to deal with these types of opponents.
 
The only proven way to reliably harm Vader is electricity. Is Lucario capable of realizing this? Furthermore, lightsabers have consistently cut through everything, with there being only about three materials in all of Star Wars that can resist a blade. Stat amping probably won't help all that much.
 
Omegagoldfish said:
The only proven way to reliably harm Vader is electricity. Is Lucario capable of realizing this? Furthermore, lightsabers have consistently cut through everything, with there being only about three materials in all of Star Wars that can resist a blade. Stat amping probably won't help all that much.
Click to expand...
If you're claiming that only lightning can damage Vader, I'm afraid I'll have to tell you that that's a NLF. Besides, Lucario can read Vader's mind, discover that weakness, then rapid fire ThunderPunch. Claiming that a Lightsaber can cut through anything is a massive NLF. A Lightsaber would certainly damge Lucario, but instantly kill him? I highly doubt it. Stat amping will help. Lucario can amp it's defense so that it's six times stronger that before. Lucario and Vader have somewhat similar durabilty. Luke's Lightsaber was capable of slightly damging Vader, and Luke and Vader's Lightsaber's should have the same AP, are you claiming that Vader's Lightsaber could cut through something six times as durabile as Vader?
 
Omegagoldfish said:
The only proven way to reliably harm Vader is electricity. Is Lucario capable of realizing this? Furthermore, lightsabers have consistently cut through everything, with there being only about three materials in all of Star Wars that can resist a blade. Stat amping probably won't help all that much.
Click to expand...
Darth Vader might have only ever been seriously hurt by electricity sure, but that would be inverse. his Dura is still in the same tier as Lucario's AP, he should be taking damage.

Not sure how hot a lightsaber is. I do know that Charizard can melt solid boulders with Flamethrower in the anime. And each boulder melted in 2 seconds tops so the temperature of the flame needs to be at least a dozen times higher than the melting point of rock which is 1200C. Now, in the game (where Charizard is also said to be able to melt rocks), Lucario, with full stat amp, can take a hit from the much more powerful Mega Charizard Y's far stronger move Overheat and live. It's probably several tens of thousands of degrees celsius.

Edit*

Scratch that, just saw this video of a guy using a blow torch at 6000 degrees (Celsius? Kelvin?) to melt a rock and he's barely doing anything to it in 3 minutes. For Charizard to melt rocks in 2 seconds it will probably have to be a temperature in the hundreds of thousands.
 
Noahkaismith said:
Omegagoldfish said:
The only proven way to reliably harm Vader is electricity. Is Lucario capable of realizing this? Furthermore, lightsabers have consistently cut through everything, with there being only about three materials in all of Star Wars that can resist a blade. Stat amping probably won't help all that much.
Click to expand...
If you're claiming that only lightning can damage Vader, I'm afraid I'll have to tell you that that's a NLF. Besides, Lucario can read Vader's mind, discover that weakness, then rapid fire ThunderPunch. Claiming that a Lightsaber can cut through anything is a massive NLF. A Lightsaber would certainly damge Lucario, but instantly kill him? I highly doubt it. Stat amping will help. Lucario can amp it's defense so that it's six times stronger that before. Lucario and Vader have somewhat similar durabilty. Luke's Lightsaber was capable of slightly damging Vader, and Luke and Vader's Lightsaber's should have the same AP, are you claiming that Vader's Lightsaber could cut through something six times as durabile as Vader?
Click to expand...
I'm not stating that the only thing that can harm Vader is electricity. I'm saying that the most effective, and only prove way to bring him down is electricity. I explicitly stated lightsabers can't cut through anything, but almost anything. Furthermore, Vader's only resisted relatively glancing blows against lightsaber strikes. When Luke hit him on the wrist in Return of the Jedi, that hand fell off as if it were unarmored.


Also, stat boosts in Pokemon actually increase the stat by 50% each level, not 100%. So, Lucario's upper limit would be, assuming maximum value for Large Mountain, would be 12.9 Gigatons of force. Vader's upper limit isn't established, but that's the amount of energy needed to, at least theoretically, wipe out Lucario in one blow, assuming it even gets off the defense buffs. However, despite my dislike for the massive tier gap between Disney and EU (considering that it hasn't been proven noncanon), I will assume Vader is striking at Large Mountain.


There's a possibility that Vader will simply strike quickly (knowing about stat amping through mind reading as is) and prevent any stat amping from happening. Assuming the lightsaber is a fire-type move, and assuming that the lightsaber is Large Mountai (which it should be, as it cut through Vader's wrist on a direct strike, routinely cuts open starship hulls and carved Anakin to pieces.), each hit is 8.6 gigajoules, enough, without stat amping, to put Lucario down, and not assuming a critical. If it is, Lucario's going down. Plain and simple.


Now, you stated an (unboosted) (no IV/EV specification) Charizard Y Overheat to a (max boosted) Lucario is survivable. Not an unboosted Lucario, or a crit, however. But it's been established that stat boosts take time to pull off, and Vader, although he fights defensively, will try and strike in this situation, understanding stat boosts.


It's not an easy fight for Vader, but he has a greater potential to one-hit kill than Lucario does.
 
and the force grab would keep lucario some distance, (grabbing lucario's neck via the force), this is something lucario will struggle against
 
why so? lucario cant attack back while being attack with the force grab, and this will likely be darth vaders attack, because its the most well known after all (even me, as non-star wars fan knows about this)
 
You realize Vader needs to amp himself to be Large Mountain... Lucario bypasses that, and with Feint he can, he obliterates in a single hit. And Me First just turns anything Vader uses against him, but stronger. Furthermore, Lucario has the AP advantage, with or without amps
 
feint doesnt do that, it fails to faint my pokemons on the same level of the user (note that this is some lvl 7 pichu surviving this), and using the force on yourself is impossible, since this gives him advantage to levitate himself and dodge all of lucario's attacks, even when vader needs to amp, wait, vader doesnt need to do that, its not even shown to amp for the force
 
You're abusing game mechanics. Even if you weren't, Feint failing if you're not using Protect/Detect hasn't been a thing since gen 4, and even if that weren't true, a lvl 100 Mega Lucario would indeed ohko a lvl 7 Pichu with Feint if it worked...dozens of times over at that. Even with min IVs and an attack decreasing nature with -6 attacks against a max IVs witha defense increasing nature with +6 defense, it would still ohko.
 
its still the same level, even the move description doesnt say that, so for the sake of that argument, is it nothing more then a lie
 
Yep, did the game mechanics calculations. With a level 7 Pichu and a level 100 Mega Lucario, the only way it would 2HKO is if the Pichu had maxed out IVs while the Lucario had none at all, was Growl'd 6 times while Pichu defense boosted +6, both had a Bold Nature, and even then, Feint is still a guaranteed OHKO. Mega Lucario needs to be burned, have an illegal ability, or items need to come into play for Feint to be a guaranteed 2HKO.

Also, don't accuse me for lying. Look at Lucario's page for Feint. Heck, SM Flavor Text: "This attack hits a target using a move such as Protect or Detect. This also lifts the effects of those moves."
 
Also, stat boosts in Pokemon actually increase the stat by 50% each level, not 100%
Some increase by 100% others by 50%. However both types of moves have a limit of adding a 3x stat increase. That increase however is flat and is added together for a total of 4x the orignal stat. So Lucario's maximum dura should be 17,2 Gigatons ( if he is maximum Large Mountain, Idk what he scales from).

There's a possibility that Vader will simply strike quickly (knowing about stat amping
Lucario can also see Vader's strat and should accordingly act by staying on the defensive and keeping to ranged attacks until he is fully boosted.

Now, you stated an (unboosted) (no IV/EV specification) Charizard Y Overheat
I didn't want to get bogged down in game mechanics as I consider them dodgy so I won't go into details about them here either. He did have his special ability Drought of course which increases the strenght of his Fire type moves by half.
 
My point is, Lucario can definitevely take multiple saber strikes while he's getting in range and at that point Vader gets rag dolled by superior martial arts skills and is soon after K.Od.

And I still haven't addressed Cal's Feint argument which does indeed technically bypass Vader's precogs making his rag dolling all the more inevitable.
 
Yeah. A precog bypassing, barrier bypassing, move from a Pokémon described as heartless, with an ability in Adaptability already boosting his AP advantage. It's definitely the aura user's win.

EU on the other hand stomps the Lucario that can match him.
 
And why would he keep distance instead of going in himself, as he's primarily a light saber person? He doesn't know about Lucario's power advantage, and he wouldn't expect so much power from a 4'3" blue jackal on hind legs. Yodas don't come around often.
 
With Lucario's skill, it's not. Especially when he doesn't need Feint to win (Aura Sphere, Force Palm, Close Combat, natural aura powers, Adaptability, AP advantage, and stat boosting moves would be enough. Everything else is just icing). It's just his one-shot.
 
Even if we assume that Vader tried to keep his distance throughout the entire fight and that that's possible in the first place, Lucario would inevitably start to mimick Vader's moves to keep him in place as well or use force jump when he needs to ( an EU ability that this Vader doesn't have).
 
Myriadofmemes said:
Even if we assume that Vader tried to keep his distance throughout the entire fight and that that's possible in the first place, Lucario would inevitably start to mimick Vader's moves to keep him in place as well or use force jump when he needs to ( an EU ability that this Vader doesn't have).
Click to expand...
Vader pulled a Force Jump in Empire Strikes Back.
 
Omegagoldfish said:
Myriadofmemes said:
Even if we assume that Vader tried to keep his distance throughout the entire fight and that that's possible in the first place, Lucario would inevitably start to mimick Vader's moves to keep him in place as well or use force jump when he needs to ( an EU ability that this Vader doesn't have).
Click to expand...
Vader pulled a Force Jump in Empire Strikes Back.
Click to expand...
Ugh... yeah, maybe it is a force jump. Considering how bad his health is he might need a super power to cover a flight of stairs. it's still not on his profile though. And I was talking more about like the jumps Windu did in the Clone Wars 2003 cartoon, or at least like, what Obi Wan did in Phantom Menace.
 
Myriadofmemes said:
Omegagoldfish said:
Myriadofmemes said:
Even if we assume that Vader tried to keep his distance throughout the entire fight and that that's possible in the first place, Lucario would inevitably start to mimick Vader's moves to keep him in place as well or use force jump when he needs to ( an EU ability that this Vader doesn't have).
Click to expand...
Vader pulled a Force Jump in Empire Strikes Back.
Click to expand...
Ugh... yeah, maybe it is a force jump. Considering how bad his health is he might need a super power to cover a flight of stairs. it's still not on his profile though. And I was talking more about like the jumps Windu did in the Clone Wars 2003 cartoon, or at least like, what Obi Wan did in Phantom Menace.
Click to expand...
Vader's actually in pretty decent physical condition when his suit is on. And by decent, I mean better than almost everyone else in the Galaxy. The inherent problem with only using the films for Disney canon is that all of the films that prominently feature Vader don't have him jumping because it was hard to do.


However, Vader's robotic legs should be comparable in performance to his arms, and his robotic arms exceeded the strength of his flesh arms. Ergo, Vader's legs should be in a similar level of power. Vader's suit wasn't all that heavy, just oddly weighted, and he adapted quickly. I think it's very possible for him to do force jumps, it's just that his chosen lightsaber style, Djem So, is rather immobile in its footwork.

And again, I gripe that there really shouldn't be seperate profiles. Everything is canon unless proven otherwise, or in situations like the Mario games where there IS no canon. A force jump is not so far beyond Disney Vader's ability that it should be ruled out.
 
I'll start counting if no one else is interested:

Vader: 4 (Omegagoldfish, HellBeast1, ZeedMillenniummon89, Gargoyle One)

Lucario: 5 ( LephyrTheRevanchist, Noahkaismith, Myriadofmemes, The real cal howard, ProfessorKukui4Life )

Inconclusive: 1 ( Eficiente )

( Votes not counted: BattleReviews and Computerz5 not giving any credible reasoning. )
 
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