Darth Sidious vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Rashuba]

I am curious what people think about these two encounters if they were to ever happen how would they play out??
I must be honest I do want Obi-Wan to win but from what I hear all over the web it seems Sidious is just way too powerful in both scenarios which is shocking to me ^w^;

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

Im pretty sure this is a huge stomp in Sidious' favor. Obi wan stalemated Vador who is way weaker than Sidious.

 

[aeneax]

Sidious wins all-out.

ROTS Obi-Wan would win against any Sidious in a saber-only fight, excluding DE Sidious. Post-ROTS Sidious declines in terms of physical prowess, and although he grows more powerful, he can't outright stomp someone who is above Mace Windu.

 

[CrystalValley]

Sidious was moving faster than Anakin could see. he blitzes and one shots.

 

[Abu2411]

Normally I would say that A>B>C logic doesn't work in Star Wars, but I believe that Obi-Wan is really out of his depth here. Sidious knows everything Dooku does but is better in pretty much every way. RIP Obi.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Normally I would say that A>B>C logic doesn't work in Star Wars, but I believe that Obi-Wan is really out of his depth here. Sidious knows everything Dooku does but is better in pretty much every way. RIP Obi.

Same, but Dooku is definitely a better Lightsaber Fighter than Sidious.

 

[CrystalValley]

Same, but Dooku is definitely a better Lightsaber Fighter than Sidious.

since when? Sidious out-dueled Dark Empire Luke, who should be superior to Vader at his peak in terms of saber combat. and it wasn't due to speedblitzing either since Luke could clearly keep up with him and even slammed him into a wall with the force. i know that DE Sidious is by far the strongest, but that's in terms of the force. i doubt he really practiced his sabers skills between EP3 and DE. he's also stated many times to be the strongest Sith in history, when Obi-Wan has no such statements or feats. combine all of this stuff with him moving faster than Anakin could perceive and he stomps Obi-Wan.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm referring to the fact that Dooku could Stalemate Yoda in a Lightsaber duel in AotC while Yoda disarmed Sidious in the script for RotS. Dark Empire Sidious is his own thing, I'm referring to Sidious from the ******* Movies.

 

[CrystalValley]

I'm referring to the fact that Dooku could Stalemate Yoda in a Lightsaber duel in AotC while Yoda disarmed Sidious in the script for RotS. Dark Empire Sidious is his own thing, I'm referring to Sidious from the ******* Movies.

i mean unless this is explicitly Disney canon, i'm counting the movies as apart of the original EU canon. and I explained why I don't think his sabers skills would've changed noticeably from EP3 to DE.

also even if Sidious did get disarmed, you have to remember he was on a small platform being pressed from all sides. Dooku had much more wiggle room to fall back or dance around Yoda to stay active in the duel. i don't think that's a fair comparison.

 

[aeneax]

Sidious was moving faster than Anakin could see. he blitzes and one shots.

The same Mace Windu who matched that Sidious lost against an Anakin whose mental state was complete shit in the ROTS game. If people treated "not perceiving something" as an actual argument, you'd have literal Vong nobodies scaling over 90% of the verse just because they could see GM Luke and Lord Nyax fighting.

also even if Sidious did get disarmed, you have to remember he was on a small platform being pressed from all sides. Dooku had much more wiggle room to fall back or dance around Yoda to stay active in the duel. i don't think that's a fair comparison.

since when? Sidious out-dueled Dark Empire Luke, who should be superior to Vader at his peak in terms of saber combat. and it wasn't due to speedblitzing either since Luke could clearly keep up with him and even slammed him into a wall with the force. i know that DE Sidious is by far the strongest, but that's in terms of the force. i doubt he really practiced his sabers skills between EP3 and DE. he's also stated many times to be the strongest Sith in history, when Obi-Wan has no such statements or feats. combine all of this stuff with him moving faster than Anakin could perceive and he stomps Obi-Wan.

Leia clearly sensed that the light side was winning over the dark side during the duel between DE Luke and DE Sidious. And it should be noted that she can't see them, only feel their power.

Those platforms benefited Sidious. That's why he runs away when both of them are in the chamber (equal ground) and goes to the place full of uneven ground. When they duelled, unlike with Dooku who Yoda had to exhaust himself to defeat, Yoda ramped up his speed and swiftly disarmed Sidious (Sidious is faster than Yoda too). This was even after Sidious chose the battlefield terrain, opting not for the flat ground of the Office, but the pods.

“An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow. Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus.”

The novel has Sidious pip Yoda in a vulnerable position and he fell. This in place of the part where Sidious disarms Yoda except it ends the fight and Yoda falls. Such a strategy required his constant retreat between pods and for Yoda to be in a vulnerable position.

“The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow-Half a second too slow. The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell. He fell a long way.”

For a visual image of this I would point to the Legends ROTS comic which has pretty much the same events except Yoda does land. He lands, gets blasted as he does so, blocks the lightning but falls.

A draft of the film script had Sidious get lucky like this too. Getting bested in the duel then catching him in a vulnerable position.

A Legends book called Star Wars Annual 2008 also described the moment of being disarmed flat out as lucky.

These are also based directly off the movie itself or an earlier draft becoming an adaptation, of which the final result shows Yoda landing on the at the edge of the pod and getting blasted just as he does so and losing his lightsaber. So his footing won’t be the most secure thing. Despite being overwhelmed by lightning, Mace Windu still managed to hold onto his lightsaber, so the more powerful Yoda with superior augmentation losing his lightsaber instantly as if he had slipped on a banana peel would be down to the circumstances of this environment.

Dooku's feat against Yoda is more impressive. Apart from Yoda growing weaker over time, he was emotionally unbalanced by Order 66, while Sidious benefited greatly from the dark side shift that Order 66 brought. Not only was Yoda stronger and in a better state of mind when he fought Dooku, but he also failed to disarm him in a confrontation on equal ground. Dooku = Yoda in sabers is canonically confirmed as well.

 

[CrystalValley]

The same Mace Windu who matched that Sidious lost against an Anakin whose mental state was complete shit in the ROTS game. If people treated "not perceiving something" as an actual argument, you'd have literal Vong nobodies scaling over 90% of the verse just because they could see GM Luke and Lord Nyax fighting.


Leia clearly sensed that the light side was winning over the dark side during the duel between DE Luke and DE Sidious. And it should be noted that she can't see them, only feel their power.

Those platforms benefited Sidious. That's why he runs away when both of them are in the chamber (equal ground) and goes to the place full of uneven ground. When they duelled, unlike with Dooku who Yoda had to exhaust himself to defeat, Yoda ramped up his speed and swiftly disarmed Sidious (Sidious is faster than Yoda too). This was even after Sidious chose the battlefield terrain, opting not for the flat ground of the Office, but the pods.

The novel has Sidious pip Yoda in a vulnerable position and he fell. This in place of the part where Sidious disarms Yoda except it ends the fight and Yoda falls. Such a strategy required his constant retreat between pods and for Yoda to be in a vulnerable position.

For a visual image of this I would point to the Legends ROTS comic which has pretty much the same events except Yoda does land. He lands, gets blasted as he does so, blocks the lightning but falls.

A draft of the film script had Sidious get lucky like this too. Getting bested in the duel then catching him in a vulnerable position.

A Legends book called Star Wars Annual 2008 also described the moment of being disarmed flat out as lucky.

These are also based directly off the movie itself or an earlier draft becoming an adaptation, of which the final result shows Yoda landing on the at the edge of the pod and getting blasted just as he does so and losing his lightsaber. So his footing won’t be the most secure thing. Despite being overwhelmed by lightning, Mace Windu still managed to hold onto his lightsaber, so the more powerful Yoda with superior augmentation losing his lightsaber instantly as if he had slipped on a banana peel would be down to the circumstances of this environment.

Dooku's feat against Yoda is more impressive. Apart from Yoda growing weaker over time, he was emotionally unbalanced by Order 66, while Sidious benefited greatly from the dark side shift that Order 66 brought. Not only was Yoda stronger and in a better state of mind when he fought Dooku, but he also failed to disarm him in a confrontation on equal ground. Dooku = Yoda in sabers is canonically confirmed as well.

the RoTS game clearly is not canon. I have no idea why you think it would be. and Mace fighting Anakin would not be nearly as powerful as fighting Sidious anyways since Vapaad would not be even remotely as effective in amping him against Anakin as it did against Sidious.

haven't read anything about the Vong in a long time, but if that's the case so be it. it's not about liking it or not. NJO era is pretty broken anyways and I have had my issues with people powercreep scaling to GM Luke too much. but it is what it is.

and I'm talking about Luke and Sidious's first duel in Dark Empire with no amps, where Sidious just got his new clone body after Luke tried to destroy all of the clones.

the Senate Chamber benefited Sidious from a force perspective, not a saber one. everything you mentioned was only about benefiting him from a force perspective once gaining distance. I don't think I need to explain why being stuck on a small platform with no wiggle room with Yoda in a saber duel is not a good thing. so from a saber perspective, comparing Sidious's duel with Yoda's is unfair.

so from what we know

Sidious and Vapaad amped Mace were moving faster than Anakin could perceive, who is a general equal of Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan has no saber feats matching Sidious besting DE Luke in combat, who was capable of keeping up with him meaning it wasn't due to blitzing but rather skill. and DE Sidious should not have much (if any) skill increase with sabers from EP3 to DE considering he primarily focused on the force and mastered every force power.

and I don't need to explain why Obi-Wan gets stomped in a force battle.

 

[Abu2411]

Also, considering the fact that Sidious knows every force power, isn't that what made him one of the strongest solar System level non-smurfs?

 

[aeneax]

the RoTS game clearly is not canon. I have no idea why you think it would be. and Mace fighting Anakin would not be nearly as powerful as fighting Sidious anyways since Vapaad would not be even remotely as effective in amping him against Anakin as it did against Sidious.

The ROTS game is an alternate continuity, licensed and approved by Lucasfilm, so pretty valid. Vaapad is a non-factor. Anakin is stated to be more powerful than Yoda even before the duel on the Invisible Hand. Palpatine's report of the Invisible Hand was that Anakin won against Dooku via a fluke, and so Windu believes that Anakin got lucky, and despite knowing that, he believes that Anakin getting lucky against Dooku was enough to make him arguably more powerful than any Jedi alive.

The game is only portraying something that has been said multiple times.

“After years of careful planning, misdirection, and manipulation, Dooku finally stands ready to bring his master's vision for an ordered galaxy and an end to the Clone Wars to fruition. Staging the kidnapping of the Supreme Chancellor, Dooku now moves to quickly dispatch the only remaining Jedi who can still oppose him.”

and I'm talking about Luke and Sidious's first duel in Dark Empire with no amps, where Sidious just got his new clone body after Luke tried to destroy all of the clones.

I assumed you were talking about their final duel.

the Senate Chamber benefited Sidious from a force perspective, not a saber one. everything you mentioned was only about benefiting him from a force perspective once gaining distance. I don't think I need to explain why being stuck on a small platform with no wiggle room with Yoda in a saber duel is not a good thing. so from a saber perspective, comparing Sidious's duel with Yoda's is unfair.

Sidious knows he can't beat Yoda in sabers, that's why he tries to flee the moment Yoda decides to engage him inside the office, so not even Sidious believes he can beat Yoda. You have to keep in mind that if it wasn't for the pods, Sidious would've died the moment he lost his lightsaber. The main problem is that you're trying to shift this into a "Yoda had the advantage" type beat argument. Yes, Yoda will always have the advantage because he's simply far better with sabers, which was the main reason this argument started.

Sidious and Vapaad amped Mace were moving faster than Anakin could perceive, who is a general equal of Obi-Wan.

Perceiving or not is not an argument.

Obi-Wan has no saber feats matching Sidious besting DE Luke in combat, who was capable of keeping up with him meaning it wasn't due to blitzing but rather skill. and DE Sidious should not have much (if any) skill increase with sabers from EP3 to DE considering he primarily focused on the force and mastered every force power.

He has, such as matching Mustafar Vader. DE Sidious got rekt by DE Luke and lost his hand in the process. There is a source blatantly stating that Luke "proved too strong" for Palpatine to defeat in Dark Empire #6. DE Sidious and Sidious in general is extremely powerful, he's not Valkorion tier for nothing. But in terms of sabers, he's not very good.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Sidious' Entire Gimmick is that he's a Strong as **** Jack of all Trades who's way better at Force Combat and Shenanigans than actual Lightsaber Combat.

 

[CrystalValley]

The ROTS game is an alternate continuity, licensed and approved by Lucasfilm, so pretty valid. Vaapad is a non-factor. Anakin is stated to be more powerful than Yoda even before the duel on the Invisible Hand. Palpatine's report of the Invisible Hand was that Anakin won against Dooku via a fluke, and so Windu believes that Anakin got lucky, and despite knowing that, he believes that Anakin getting lucky against Dooku was enough to make him arguably more powerful than any Jedi alive.

The game is only portraying something that has been said multiple times.


I assumed you were talking about their final duel.

Sidious knows he can't beat Yoda in sabers, that's why he tries to flee the moment Yoda decides to engage him inside the office, so not even Sidious believes he can beat Yoda. You have to keep in mind that if it wasn't for the pods, Sidious would've died the moment he lost his lightsaber. The main problem is that you're trying to shift this into a "Yoda had the advantage" type beat argument. Yes, Yoda will always have the advantage because he's simply far better with sabers, which was the main reason this argument started.

Perceiving or not is not an argument.

He has, such as matching Mustafar Vader. DE Sidious got rekt by DE Luke and lost his hand in the process. There is a source blatantly stating that Luke "proved too strong" for Palpatine to defeat in Dark Empire #6. DE Sidious and Sidious in general is extremely powerful, he's not Valkorion tier for nothing. But in terms of sabers, he's not very good.

just because something is official does not make it canon. and Vapaad plays a huge factor in the fight with Sidious. it's not going to work nearly as well on an emotionally afflicted Anakin who isn't nearly as powerful.

and Anakin is not above Yoda. every single piece of evidence shows otherwise. hell Yoda even told Obi-Wan to face Anakin because Sidious is too powerful for him, and that he must face him alone. if you really think hyperbolic statements of Anakin hype is enough to rate him so high, then I have no idea what to say to you. feats show that Yoda is a threat to Dooku from their fight alone, and Dooku was amazed by Kenobi's Soresu skills. you really think only Anakin is a threat to Dooku? that is blatantly false. Sidious also said "Darth Vader WILL become more powerful than either of us" to Yoda, meaning he wasn't stronger than them at all.

Sidious was more of being cautious against Yoda from my understanding, because Yoda is a genuine threat to him. why risk your life when you have a chance at fleeing and letting Order 66 kill or drive him into exile? also Sidious tried to flee when he felt the power of Yoda from a force push. before that he was entirely confident in beating him. this means that Yoda's FORCE abilities are what scared Sidious into retreating.


so Sidious was not retreating due to sabers at all. again nothing puts Sidious below Yoda in sabers. he got disarmed on an extremely small platform with no wiggle room and was basically forced to stand still while Yoda was small enough to bounce all around the platform with Ataru. the fact Sidious held out at all against such horribly hard-countering odds and safely retreated after being disarmed puts him above Yoda if anything in sabers.

Anakin not being able to perceive Sidious is an argument. you saying it's not with no counterargument is not a valid argument against it.

in terms of saber combat Dark Empire Sidious>>Dark Empire Luke>>>EP6 Luke>=<EP6 Vader, who you could argue is emotionally crippled but shouldn't drop him down an entire tier in terms of sabers and power. regardless, EP6 Luke was on Vader's general level, who is obviously eclipsed by a Dark Empire Luke who is a decade older. DE Sidious lost to an amped DE Luke. that is an irrelevant argument. we have an on-screen feat of him defeating DE Luke when not amped in saber combat.

also which Sidious is Valkorian tier? Episode 3? Hope you're not talking about DE because he waste Valkorian. Even EP3 Sidious is winning pretty easily with the blitz + sabers.

 

[aeneax]

just because something is official does not make it canon. and Vapaad plays a huge factor in the fight with Sidious. it's not going to work nearly as well on an emotionally afflicted Anakin who isn't nearly as powerful.

It's not canon to the main Legends timeline, it's canon to an alternate timeline where Anakin kills Mace, Obi-Wan and Sidious. The fact that it isn't from the main timeline doesn't negate the feats therein. Vaapad is a non-factor. Yoda is more powerful than Vaapad Office Windu, and Anakin is more powerful than Yoda.

and Anakin is not above Yoda. every single piece of evidence shows otherwise. hell Yoda even told Obi-Wan to face Anakin because Sidious is too powerful for him, and that he must face him alone.

He is according to multiple sources. That's because you approach Star Wars with a Dragon Ball mentality, of believing that whoever has the biggest number will definitely win and that every character is infallible.

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. "Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him," he notes. "But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes."

if you really think hyperbolic statements of Anakin hype is enough to rate him so high, then I have no idea what to say to you. feats show that Yoda is a threat to Dooku from their fight alone, and Dooku was amazed by Kenobi's Soresu skills. you really think only Anakin is a threat to Dooku? that is blatantly false.

Hyperbolic statements would be to say that Dooku is the axis of the universe or that Vader's shadow can cover an entire planet. Hyperbolic or flowery language has nothing to do with more than 10 straightforward quotes saying that Anakin is more powerful. You're comparing Anakin to Yoda using Dooku as a metric? Anakin destroyed Dooku.

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

Let's compare Yoda vs Dooku now. First bout: Dooku is tired, Yoda has to exhaust himself to attempt to kill Dooku and fails.

Second bout:

Third bout: In YDR, Dooku has a close fight with Yoda where Dooku experiences hinderances in his ability to effectively use his power. Yet Dooku is still able to tag Yoda, make him breathe heavily and is only “slowly, slowly” losing despite not being capable of using his strength effectively.

Sidious also said "Darth Vader WILL become more powerful than either of us" to Yoda, meaning he wasn't stronger than them at all.

Sorry broski.

Sidious was more of being cautious against Yoda from my understanding, because Yoda is a genuine threat to him. why risk your life when you have a chance at fleeing and letting Order 66 kill or drive him into exile? also Sidious tried to flee when he felt the power of Yoda from a force push. before that he was entirely confident in beating him. this means that Yoda's FORCE abilities are what scared Sidious into retreating.

Sidious runs when Yoda challenges him, chooses the battlefield terrain and loses his lightsaber after Yoda only attacks him three times. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda in the Force, that fact is made clear in multiple sources, that's why Yoda tries to go near Sidious while Sidious always retreats and keep his distance. I'm not here to challenge your interpretation, only the idea that Sidious is a good duelist.

so Sidious was not retreating due to sabers at all. again nothing puts Sidious below Yoda in sabers. he got disarmed on an extremely small platform with no wiggle room and was basically forced to stand still while Yoda was small enough to bounce all around the platform with Ataru. the fact Sidious held out at all against such horribly hard-countering odds and safely retreated after being disarmed puts him above Yoda if anything in sabers.

This is, again, your interpretation. None of the novels state anything close to Sidious being pressed because he was on a platform. There are lightsaber forms to keep your ground, to jump around like a frog on crack, to slowly gain ground while pressing forward, and Sidious knows all of them. Again, not here to challenge your interpretation, but the "Sidious had no room that's why he lost" is not considered to be a real thing on any of the novels, movie or other sources.

Anakin not being able to perceive Sidious is an argument. you saying it's not with no counterargument is not a valid argument against it.

The lore establishes that Anakin is at or above that level.

in terms of saber combat Dark Empire Sidious>>Dark Empire Luke>>>>>>EP6 Luke>=<EP6 Vader, who you could argue is emotionally crippled but shouldn't drop him down an entire tier in terms of sabers and power. regardless, EP6 Luke was on Vader's general level, who is obviously eclipsed by a Dark Empire Luke who is a decade older. DE Sidious lost to an amped DE Luke. that is an irrelevant argument. we have an on-screen feat of him defeating DE Luke when not amped in saber combat.

As if being within Vader's tier is anything impressive. Vader is bound by G-canon statements, statements that put him with Qui-Gon Jinn and below TPM Maul. DE Luke was never amped by Leia. Leia unlocked resources that were already within Luke, so it's his own potential being unleashed.

 

[CrystalValley]

It's not canon to the main Legends timeline, it's canon to an alternate timeline where Anakin kills Mace, Obi-Wan and Sidious. The fact that it isn't from the main timeline doesn't negate the feats therein. Vaapad is a non-factor. Yoda is more powerful than Vaapad Office Windu, and Anakin is more powerful than Yoda.

He is according to multiple sources. That's because you approach Star Wars with a Dragon Ball mentality, of believing that whoever has the biggest number will definitely win and that every character is infallible.


Hyperbolic statements would be to say that Dooku is the axis of the universe or that Vader's shadow can cover an entire planet. Hyperbolic or flowery language has nothing to do with more than 10 straightforward quotes saying that Anakin is more powerful. You're comparing Anakin to Yoda using Dooku as a metric? Anakin destroyed Dooku.

Let's compare Yoda vs Dooku now. First bout: Dooku is tired, Yoda has to exhaust himself to attempt to kill Dooku and fails.

Second bout:

Third bout: In YDR, Dooku has a close fight with Yoda where Dooku experiences hinderances in his ability to effectively use his power. Yet Dooku is still able to tag Yoda, make him breathe heavily and is only “slowly, slowly” losing despite not being capable of using his strength effectively.

Sorry broski.

Sidious runs when Yoda challenges him, chooses the battlefield terrain and loses his lightsaber after Yoda only attacks him three times. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda in the Force, that fact is made clear in multiple sources, that's why Yoda tries to go near Sidious while Sidious always retreats and keep his distance. I'm not here to challenge your interpretation, only the idea that Sidious is a good duelist.

This is, again, your interpretation. None of the novels state anything close to Sidious being pressed because he was on a platform. There are lightsaber forms to keep your ground, to jump around like a frog on crack, to slowly gain ground while pressing forward, and Sidious knows all of them. Again, not here to challenge your interpretation, but the "Sidious had no room that's why he lost" is not considered to be a real thing on any of the novels, movie or other sources.

The lore establishes that Anakin is at or above that level.

As if being within Vader's tier is anything impressive. Vader is bound by G-canon statements, statements that put him with Qui-Gon Jinn and below TPM Maul. DE Luke was never amped by Leia. Leia unlocked resources that were already within Luke, so it's his own potential being unleashed.

the RoTS game being its own canon is like saying we can using Disney canon logic for EU. no the RoTS game is about as canon to the mainline EU Star Wars as Disney is aka zero.

I do not approach Star Wars with a DB mentality. I'm simply being logical. Sidious has bested someone who has proven to be on the level of EP6 Vader in a younger less experienced iteration, who would be around or above Obi-Wan's level in EP3. combine that with the fact that Obi-Wan literally has NO counter to Sidious that would put a kink in the scaling chain and Sidious moves faster than a general equal to Obi-Wan can see and you have a stomp.

using extreme examples of hyperbole does not mean there are not lesser forms of hyperbole. Anakin did not stomp Dooku, especially since Dooku has been a major threat to him all throughout the Clone Wars (which is canon to the EU btw since FoTJ is based off of it). EP3 Anakin is not magically going from being able to best Dooku is sabers somewhat and lose against the force, to curbstomping him. not only that but Anakin entered a mindset he normally does not access against Dooku in EP3 IIRC according to the novel. People tend to overhype it as "Zonakin", but it is there and is clearly different from the emotionally distressed and confused Anakin Obi-Wan fought. hell you mentioned the emotionally distressed part first, so you should agree with this.

as for Dooku Vs. Yoda in Dark Rendezvous, this would mean Yoda simply grew in power over time during the events of the Clone Wars. again this is backed by Yoda saying Sidious is too powerful for Obi-Wan, yet thinks he can handle Sidious and tells Obi-Wan to go for Anakin.

also you give examples of hyperbole and then send a statement speaking of Anakin's "boundless" power. does Anakin have infinite power now? come now. lol

and yes, Anakin's force abilities are unparalleled compared to everyone else in the temple, which is what it would be referring to, not everyone in Star Wars.

Sidious would obviously be excluding himself from "all the sith that came before" since he already had a statement where he said Vader WILL (meaning he's not) become more powerful than him and Yoda.

and your quote saying Anakin is the most powerful enemy faced by the Jedi is contradicted many times, unless you're going to try and argue Anakin>Valkorian and Sidious in power and overall how formidable they are too. I don't need to explain why this is wrong, do I?

Sidious got disarmed after Yoda attacked him three times? no offense but you must've forgotten most of EP3.



of course Sidious is going to try and retreat to use the force at long range though. not only is he in a battlefield that hilariously hinders him in sabers due to no room to move, but said battlefield gives him a big advantage in a force confrontation.

and him being hindered on a platform isn't an interpretation. it's using basic logic. being a big target with no room to even move and are basically forced to stand still while fighting a small target with high mobility and is small enough to jump around on the small platform unlike you in a sword fight is logically and blatantly a big handicap. just look at the video I sent. Sidious can't move around there almost at all. he's standing still the whole time except once when he took one step back downwards, which is all he could do.

the lore establishes that Anakin can not perceive them. this is as blatant as you can get.

since when was Vader stated to be below TPM Maul? lol and keep in mind that Vader's power and skill increases over time as he gets used to his new body. Clearly Vader from The Rise of Darth Vader isn't going to be on the same level as his later versions, let alone his EP6 self in his prime. he had to get used to his new suit, almost completely re-tool is dueling style, etc.

DE Luke was amped by Leia IIRC, but it doesn't matter. Sidious bested DE Luke before that, who has 10 more years worth of experience than EP6 Luke. Amped or potential unlocked DE Luke beating DE Sidious is a feat solely benefiting him. it's not an anti-feat for Sidious by any means.

 

[aeneax]

the RoTS game being its own game is like saying we can using Disney canon logic for EU. no. the RoTS game is about as canon to the mainline EU Star Wars as Disney is, aka zero.

Alternative continuities are valid for feats. Disney canon is one thing, a what-if story that's licensed and approved by LFL to be within the Legends universe is a completely different thing. They are all C-canon, unless you can prove otherwise.

I do not approach Star Wars with a DB mentality. I'm simply being logical. Sidious has bested someone who has proven to be on the level of EP6 Vader in a younger less experienced iteration, who would be around or above Obi-Wan's level in EP3. combine that with the fact that Obi-Wan literally has NO counter to Sidious that would put a kink in the scaling chain and Sidious moves faster than a general equal to Obi-Wan can see and you have a stomp.

Already refuted. If you answer is to just repeat yourself over and over again, I'll take it you conceded this point.

using extreme examples of hyperbole does not mean there are not lesser forms of hyperbole. Anakin did not stomp Dooku, especially since Dooku has been a major threat to him all throughout the Clone Wars (which is canon to the EU btw since FoTJ is based off of it). EP3 Anakin is not magically going from being able to best Dooku is sabers somewhat and lose against the force, to curbstomping him. not only that but Anakin entered a mindset he normally does not access against Dooku in EP3 IIRC according to the novel. People tend to overhype it as "Zonakin", but it is there and is clearly different from the emotionally distressed and confused Anakin Obi-Wan fought. hell you mentioned the emotionally distressed part first, so you should agree with this.

Give me examples of quotes in favor of Anakin being hyperbole. Post them here and tell me what hyperbole you see in them, it'll be easier to understand your point this way. The thing is that, despite having fought Yoda and knowing about Mace's Vaapad, Dooku only considers Anakin to be a real threat. Mace Windu seems to think the same way because he believed Anakin was arguably the most powerful Jedi after hearing the fake report that Anakin got lucky against Dooku.

“After years of careful planning, misdirection, and manipulation, Dooku finally stands ready to bring his master's vision for an ordered galaxy and an end to the Clone Wars to fruition. Staging the kidnapping of the Supreme Chancellor, Dooku now moves to quickly dispatch the only remaining Jedi who can still oppose him.”

You have: Mustafar Vader > Knightfall Vader > Zonakin > Anakin. Nothing indicates that a much stronger version of Anakin being distressed is inferior to his weakest version. And remember: Gillard confirms that the reason Anakin lost was because of the mistakes he made, while Obi-Wan remained composed and focused, not because Anakin lost access to the bulk of his power or got weaker.

as for Dooku Vs. Yoda in Dark Rendezvous, this would mean Yoda simply grew in power over time during the events of the Clone Wars. again this is backed by Yoda saying Sidious is too powerful for Obi-Wan, yet thinks he can handle Sidious and tells Obi-Wan to go for Anakin.

He doesn't. There are multiple sources stating that Yoda grows weaker. You're treating their fights with a Dragon Ball mentality again. Just because Anakin is stronger doesn't mean Obi-Wan is doomed to lose. Compare the personality, Force abilities and intelligence of Sidious and Anakin and you'll see why Sidious is far more dangerous than Anakin. The Gillard quote that I posted addresses this.

also you give examples of hyperbole and then send a statement speaking of Anakin's "boundless" power. does Anakin have infinite power now? come now. lol

and yes, Anakin's force abilities are unparalleled compared to everyone else in the temple, which is what it would be referring to, not everyone in Star Wars.

The argument wasn't about"Anakin having infinite power," it was about him having unparalleled abilities overall. It's not comparing him to the other people on the Temple.

Sidious would obviously be excluding himself from "all the sith that came before" since he already had a statement where he said Vader WILL (meaning he's not) become more powerful than him and Yoda.

and your quote saying Anakin is the most powerful enemy faced by the Jedi is contradicted many times, unless you're going to try and argue Anakin>Valkorian and Sidious in power and overall how formidable they are too. I don't need to explain why this is wrong, do I?

Sidious has an opinion as a character, out-of-universe quotes are more valid because the Lucasfilm people behind those quotes know about Palpatine's statements. Lucas blatantly stated that Anakin was as powerful as the Emperor in Episode 3.

Sidious got disarmed after Yoda attacked him three times? no offense but you must've forgotten most of EP3.

Yes.

“An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow. Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus.

of course Sidious is going to try and retreat to use the force at long range though. not only is he in a battlefield that hilariously hinders him in sabers due to no room to move, but said battlefield gives him a big advantage in a force confrontation.

and him being hindered on a platform isn't an interpretation. it's using basic logic. being a big target with no room to even move and are basically forced to stand still while fighting a small target with high mobility and is small enough to jump around on the small platform unlike you in a sword fight is logically and blatantly a big handicap. just look at the video I sent. Sidious can't move around there almost at all. he's standing still the whole time except once when he took one step back downwards, which is all he could do.

Saying that something is basic logic doesn't help your argument. I'll be waiting for a source on Palpatine specifically being pressed because of the lack of space. Sidious doesn't need to move around.

the lore establishes that Anakin can not perceive them. this is as blatant as you can get.

There are G-canon statements that go against your point.

since when was Vader stated to be below TPM Maul? lol and keep in mind that Vader's power and skill increases over time as he gets used to his new body. Clearly Vader from The Rise of Darth Vader isn't going to be on the same level as his later versions, let alone his EP6 self in his prime. he had to get used to his new suit, almost completely re-tool is dueling style, etc.

Unfortunately for Vader, these statements cover the entire OT.
Here:

Here:

"I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it. Because we’d never seen real Jedi’s at work, we’d only seen, you know, old men and crippled, half-droid, half-men and young boys that had learned from these people. So, to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’ve been doing." - George Lucas

Here:

“In every episode from 4,5 and 6, I kept improving the sword fighting because the assumption was Luke was getting to be a better fighter, he was learning more. But at the same time he wasn’t being trained as an original Jedi would’ve been trained.

In Empire strikes back it’s the first time that the antagonist and protagonist actually fight each other so that it is a very big fight and Luke now has become proficient enough to face Darth Vader. So it’s a slightly one sided sword fight where Vader has the advantage over him.

He was fighting the man who he thought was his bitter enemy. He was fighting as hard as he could. He was fighting the man who killed his father, Obi Wan Kenobi, personified evil in the universe. Then in the next fight it’s more of an equal competition. Centred on more of the emotion than the fight itself.
video of rage Luke battering Vader

Then when we move to the prequels, where there were Jedi in their full flower and fighting as they were in the past. Then we had to make the fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive in the way they fought.
video of TPM Maul vs Obi Wan and Qui Gon

And we continued that.
video of AOTC Anakin vs Dooku

The fights actually become much more ferocious then say the ones in 4,5 and 6."
video of Yoda vs Dooku

-Birth of a Lightsaber by George Lucas

DE Luke was amped by Leia IIRC, but it doesn't matter. Sidious bested DE Luke before that, who has 10 more years worth of experience than EP6 Luke. Amped or potential unlocked DE Luke beating DE Sidious is a feat solely benefiting him. it's not an anti-feat for Sidious by any means.

Leia unlocked resources within Luke. The Luke who defeated DE Sidious was more powerful than the Luke who lost before. It is an anti-feat for DE Sidious because Sidious is actually far more powerful than DE Luke, it was just that his augmentation and skill was so trash that Luke overwhelmed him completely.

 

[CrystalValley]

Alternative continuities are valid for feats. Disney canon is one thing, a what-if story that's licensed and approved by LFL to be within the Legends universe is a completely different thing. They are all C-canon, unless you can prove otherwise.

Already refuted. If you answer is to just repeat yourself over and over again, I'll take it you conceded this point.

Give me examples of quotes in favor of Anakin being hyperbole. Post them here and tell me what hyperbole you see in them, it'll be easier to understand your point this way. The thing is that, despite having fought Yoda and knowing about Mace's Vaapad, Dooku only considers Anakin to be a real threat. Mace Windu seems to think the same way because he believed Anakin was arguably the most powerful Jedi after hearing the fake report that Anakin got lucky against Dooku.

You have: Mustafar Vader > Knightfall Vader > Zonakin > Anakin. Nothing indicates that a much stronger version of Anakin being distressed is inferior to his weakest version. And remember: Gillard confirms that the reason Anakin lost was because of the mistakes he made, while Obi-Wan remained composed and focused, not because Anakin lost access to the bulk of his power or got weaker.

He doesn't. There are multiple sources stating that Yoda grows weaker. You're treating their fights with a Dragon Ball mentality again. Just because Anakin is stronger doesn't mean Obi-Wan is doomed to lose. Compare the personality, Force abilities and intelligence of Sidious and Anakin and you'll see why Sidious is far more dangerous than Anakin. The Gillard quote that I posted addresses this.

The argument wasn't about"Anakin having infinite power," it was about him having unparalleled abilities overall. It's not comparing him to the other people on the Temple.

Sidious has an opinion as a character, out-of-universe quotes are more valid because the Lucasfilm people behind those quotes know about Palpatine's statements. Lucas blatantly stated that Anakin was as powerful as the Emperor in Episode 3.

Yes.


Saying that something is basic logic doesn't help your argument. I'll be waiting for a source on Palpatine specifically being pressed because of the lack of space. Sidious doesn't need to move around.

There are G-canon statements that go against your point.

Unfortunately for Vader, these statements cover the entire OT.
Here:

Here:

Here:


Leia unlocked resources within Luke. The Luke who defeated DE Sidious was more powerful than the Luke who lost before. It is an anti-feat for DE Sidious because Sidious is actually far more powerful than DE Luke, it was just that his augmentation and skill was so trash that Luke overwhelmed him completely.

Alternative continuities are valid for feats. Disney canon is one thing, a what-if story that's licensed and approved by LFL to be within the Legends universe is a completely different thing. They are all C-canon, unless you can prove otherwise.

nope. it's not canon because it doesn't even try to act like the game is a hypothetical alternative to the movie where things go differently. hell it was made before the movie IIRC, meaning they likely just didn't know how it actually played out exactly in the movie at the time. and it not making sense further backs up it not being canon, like an emotionally messed up Anakin beating Mace and Anakin randomly being able to jump over Obi-Wan and kill him. it's all fanservice. and again even if Mace was beneath Anakin, that would not factor in the Mace that fought Sidious because Vapaad would not amp Mace nearly as much against Anakin as it would against Sidious, since Anakin is both emotionally conflicted at that time and not nearly as powerful as Sidious.

Already refuted. If you answer is to just repeat yourself over and over again, I'll take it you conceded this point.

you did not refute my arguments at all. any attempt got obliterated. i'll take your concession then if you want to play that game.

Give me examples of quotes in favor of Anakin being hyperbole. Post them here and tell me what hyperbole you see in them, it'll be easier to understand your point this way. The thing is that, despite having fought Yoda and knowing about Mace's Vaapad, Dooku only considers Anakin to be a real threat. Mace Windu seems to think the same way because he believed Anakin was arguably the most powerful Jedi after hearing the fake report that Anakin got lucky against Dooku.

Yoda here states that Sidious is too powerful for Obi-Wan and wants him to go after Anakin instead.



Sidious says Anakin WILL become more powerful than him and Yoda meaning he isn't at the present time.



Mace Windu is also repeatedly stated as the second strongest Jedi at the time next to Yoda.

the difference between these statements and the ones with Anakin is that the ones with Anakin are contradicted. you've posted statements that are blatantly false, like Anakin being the most formidable enemy the Jedi have ever faced, which would put him above Sidious, Vitiate, etc. this is 100% false, unless you think Obi-Wan could beat Sidious in general and can match him in a battle of force powers like he did against Anakin.



further proof that Anakin isn't on Sidious's level, unless you really think Obi-Wan can match Sidious like this in the force too. lol

I guess Dooku is more powerful than Sidious in the force too since he radgolled Obi-Wan, who can match Anakin in the force, who is above Sidious.



no no and no.

Sidious completely overpowered Maul (who is an equal or slightly beneath Kenobi at the time) and Savage with the force, and then proceeded to toy around with them in a Saber fight, dominating both of them.



and yes he is toying with them. he let go of his grip on them with the force. he was smiling and laughing the whole time while not being serious at all until the end when Maul's hatred started amping him, then got serious and immediately overpowered him. and he even turned off his lightsabers against Savage just to troll him and dance around him.

You have: Mustafar Vader > Knightfall Vader > Zonakin > Anakin. Nothing indicates that a much stronger version of Anakin being distressed is inferior to his weakest version. And remember: Gillard confirms that the reason Anakin lost was because of the mistakes he made, while Obi-Wan remained composed and focused, not because Anakin lost access to the bulk of his power or got weaker.

an emotionally distraught Mustafar Anakin is not superior to Anakin in the zone and in complete control. they are days apart in experience, which is basically nothing, while one is in complete control and in the zone. Mustafar Anakin is not above the same version of himself that is in total control and not emotionally conflicted. this goes against your own arguments too since you brought up the emotionally conflicted arguments first.

He doesn't. There are multiple sources stating that Yoda grows weaker. You're treating their fights with a Dragon Ball mentality again. Just because Anakin is stronger doesn't mean Obi-Wan is doomed to lose. Compare the personality, Force abilities and intelligence of Sidious and Anakin and you'll see why Sidious is far more dangerous than Anakin. The Gillard quote that I posted addresses this.

stop hiding behind this "Dragon Ball logic" as an arbitrary buzzword to try and ignore the arguments being made. Obi-Wan winning despite Anakin being more powerful isn't the issue. the problem is that Obi-Wan was still in Anakin's general league and MATCHED him in a force battle, meaning they are equal in power. you could argue Anakin is a superior duelist and only lost due to his emotions being in disarray and his overconfidence, but the gap between their skills (if any) is still very small and not enough to say Anakin is a match for Sidious at all in saber combat, let alone saying Obi-Wan is.

also your comparison of Sidious and Anakin debunks your own quote you posted of Anakin being the most formidable enemy the Jedi have ever faced.

as for Yoda growing weaker, statements are fine so long as they aren't contradicted. sources say Yoda gets weaker yet he has a FEAT (which overrides statements if they conflict since it is visual evidence) of being able to stand up to Sidious in speed.

The argument wasn't about"Anakin having infinite power," it was about him having unparalleled abilities overall. It's not comparing him to the other people on the Temple.

"boundless power" is clear hyperbole and thus should be disregarded. and no, it would be talking about Anakin in the temple since that is where he is and when that statement takes place. that's the only way it would not cause contradictions. if you say otherwise, then this statement also gets thrown away due to other statements and feats debunking such things.

Sidious has an opinion as a character, out-of-universe quotes are more valid because the Lucasfilm people behind those quotes know about Palpatine's statements. Lucas blatantly stated that Anakin was as powerful as the Emperor in Episode 3.

you mean those out of universe statements saying that Windu is the second strongest Jedi next to Yoda? those feats of Obi-Wan matching Anakin in a force battle which debunks his force abilities being unrivaled?

Saying that something is basic logic doesn't help your argument. I'll be waiting for a source on Palpatine specifically being pressed because of the lack of space. Sidious doesn't need to move around.

this is basic logic. who doesn't need to move around in a sword fight? I can't tell if you're joking or not. being forced to stand still while the enemy is smaller and can move around freely is a blatant disadvantage. a huge one at that. if you can't see this then I don't know what to tell you. lol

There are G-canon statements that go against your point.

no there aren't. and a direct description of the fight directly from the novel is more convincing than any off-hand statement anyways.

Here:

lol your first quote is talking about how the filmmakers have the technology to now show Jedi and Sith at faster speeds than ever before compared to the original trilogy. this is far from a lore statement.

your next one isn't entirely wrong, but it needs context. Vader is slower than Anakin, but he isn't weaker. we have feats of him slaughtering many of these "prime Jedi" in the fallout of Order 66. he is slower but significantly more skilled and refined than Anakin. again an off-hand statement that gets debunked by the many feats of Vader killing Jedi before he even reached his prime.

the last one just shows how incredible Luke's lightsaber aptitude is (which has even been mentioned before), where he could reach the insane levels he did without formal Jedi training. though it is kinda annoying how good he is.

Leia unlocked resources within Luke. The Luke who defeated DE Sidious was more powerful than the Luke who lost before. It is an anti-feat for DE Sidious because Sidious is actually far more powerful than DE Luke, it was just that his augmentation and skill was so trash that Luke overwhelmed him completely.

DE Sidious in a young body has trash augmentation and skill? are you messing with me? a much weaker version of him moved faster than Anakin could see and did THIS to three council masters while fighting Windu,


and again, Sidious beat DE Luke before his amp/potential unlock, who has feats putting him above Anakin and Obi-Wan. Luke being able to out-augment DE Sidious is a testament to Luke's power, not Sidious's lack of power. quit downplaying Sidious and just concede. you have already lost this.

 

[aeneax]

I had to upload my response on Quora because this site limits the amount of images that can be used in a post to 20. Here it is.

I don't know if I'll write a follow-up answer after your response because I'd have to post it on Quora again and that's pretty bad practice. If you haven't already, join us at SI's Discord https://discord.gg/b6fuSxa3uD it's much better to debate on Discord. If you're willing and have the time, we can debate any character under Shedding Limitations and LFL rules.

 

[CrystalValley]

I had to upload my response on Quora because this site limits the amount of images that can be used in a post to 20. Here it is.

I don't know if I'll write a follow-up answer after your response because I'd have to post it on Quora again and that's pretty bad practice. If you haven't already, join us at SI's Discord https://discord.gg/b6fuSxa3uD it's much better to debate on Discord. If you're willing and have the time, we can debate any character under Shedding Limitations and LFL rules.

sorry for the late reply. but no, i'm sorry to say that I will not be joining a Discord. those are notorious shit fest with all due respect to you. i'd prefer to keep our civil conversation here, as restrictive as it may be.

The novel was published before the movie debuted as well. Things like the Hero of Umbara, Hero of Coruscant, Maul's Sith academy are all actually C-canon. I have yet to find a LFL rule stating that what-if scenarios or fanservice are non-canon. Vaapad non-factor because Anakin > Yoda > Office Vaapad Mace Windu. There is also this statement, not one mention of it being anything other than a normal C-canon story.

the novel doesn't contradict the movie, unlike the game. also there's anti-feats for Anakin in the RoTS game that should make you heavily consider not to treat it as canon. not only does Anakin have a prolonged fight with a padawan, but Cin Drallig demonstrated superior force powers when he completely resist a force push from Anakin and proceeds to blow him away with his own.

proven to be false because Sidious is overwhelmed and loses despite being far more powerful than DE Sidious. There is also no valid metric or source saying that DE Luke is superior to Obi-Wan in terms of skill. DE Sidious might win honestly given far superior reserves, but skill alone? Nope.

EP6 Luke defeated a superior version of Anakin to the one Obi-Wan fought and EP6 Luke is obviously inferior to DE Luke even pre-power up. and again DE Sidious beat Luke original in DE. i don't know why you keep ignoring this.

him fighting someone who is stated to be as powerful as the Emperor.

debunked already. so you admit Obi-Wan is in the same league of power as Sidious? lol i'm sorry but lol.

Already refuted by George Lucas and Gillard. Anakin is far more dangerous than Sidious in close combat, but Sidious is far more dangerous overall because of his intelligence and Force abilities, most of which Anakin doesn't even know.

it wasn't refuted. his own movie he made goes against your arguments, along with the insane amount of EU material that came after debunking this. do you really think Anakin could take on 3 council masters and Windu at the same time? and do you think Obi-Wan could as well? after all Sidious did it with just a lightsaber.

The same Ventress who pushes Mace to the limit (this is her first fight against a Jedi).

Mace repeatedly said they are not equals and she cannot defeat him, while also saying he wishes to take her alive meaning he was not going all out to kill her. Ventress then decides to immediately escape. this is also more after Ventress had trained, and Dooku would be using all of his skills too against her if Mace was. it's just that Dooku using said skills can defeat her easily. no reason to say Mace can't do so either going all out since they only clashed like 3 or 4 times before Ventress escaped. and again keep in mind this is a Windu who was not trying to kill her.

"The difference," I said, "lies in the instincts themselves. It is possible for an untrained Force-user to wield as much power as the greatest of Jedi-look at Kar. But untrained, the instincts he falls back on are those granted him by nature. - I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. - The shape smoked with power. More power than Mace had ever felt.”

this is clearly an outlier or referring to Anakin's potential. are you really trying to play AoTC Anakin is a god in the force? you know that even untrained, he could completely break through everyone's force barriers with raw power by this logic right? and with your arguments, everyone is apparently a god in the force, as we see Cin overpower him outright, Obi-Wan equal him, Dooku overpowering Obi-Wan in the force, a Padawan holding her own for a while against him, etc. by your logic everyone is Chosen One level. feats debunk these hype claims I'm sorry to say, along with other statements debunking yours as well.

During Republic Heroes, Grievous is able to push Mace to the limit and gain some advantages at points, making Mace doubt the outcome of the fight.

Mace never claimed he doubted himself. it was Grevious's own opinion that said he thinks he doesn't sound sure of himself. we've seen Mace completely decimate Grevious when using the force.

Dooku faces both Mace Windu and Obi-Wan together in Republic Heroes. This is set between Season 1 and 2 of TCW. Obi-Wan at this point is able to push Mace to the limit and score some victories in all out sparring sessions. Dooku is almost essentially facing two Mace’s in this fight. Yet he’s absurdly confident that he will win anyway. He is never this overconfident as he is in this. He takes the time to stop fighting and drops his guard to laugh mid battle. Yet still he cannot be defeated head on meanwhile he is able to fling the Jedi back with repulses.

Dooku is always confident against anyone who isn't Yoda. he was confident in the fight when Anakin cut his head off too. Obi-Wan is also nowhere near Mace at this point. friendly sparring sessions are not a good argument. Obi-Wan drastically improves as a duelist throughout the Clone Wars. the time frame in which your pointing out puts him vastly below Maul, as an even older version of himself got man-handled by Maul. are you saying Mace Windu is WELL below Maul? and Maul didn't really get stronger either since he spent his entire time as a cybernetic cripple. so TCW Maul is the same level as his TPM self. Sidious completely wasted Maul as well.

Only by redirecting his lightning into a generator to hit Dooku with can the Jedi effectively fight him. This doesn’t even result in Dooku going down. Dooku only gets removed from the battlefield via the destruction of the environment causing him to fall off the platform, of which he’s still fine in handling.

i mean that sounds just like a gameplay mechanic to me.

Dooku more overconfident than ever, dropping his guard to laugh, is still able to display complete dominance head to head against almost essentially 2 Mace Windu’s working together and can shrug off his own redirected attacks the Jedi need to put elsewhere and can only be fluked with a BFR.

at what range does he drop his guard exactly?

Ventress with a single saber is able to hold a comfortable advantage over Mace above the Jedi Temple around S3.

can't find a video of that but I believe you. however Ventress got a lot better during that time and was capable of fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan for a short time and get through Anakin's passive force barrier with a push. and when enraged she overpowered them both outright momentarily.

Ventress here is clearly far above the version of her that got slapped around by Dooku in the beginning. and Ventress was not winning at all against Mace with one saber. Mace isn't smiling because why would he? he's not taking pleasure from the fight. grimacing isn't really a sign of being overpowered at all either. she does clearly have the strength to make him put in effort though. using one saber also gives her more strength since he can use two hands to increase the force of her strikes. yes it isn't her preferred fighting style, but it would give her a great increase in the power of her strikes to make Mace grunt from blocking them. that's really all that means. and it's not like the fight lasted long at all to really claim that she can fight on par with Mace without two sabers.

“You’re going to need both of your blades to defeat me, assassin.”

i really don't care about Anakin's trash talk. we see where that got him with Obi-Wan in EP3.

The setting being near the Jedi Temple would aid Mace as the Temple is a powerful light side nexus.

you do remember that Sidious's darkness is also hindering the Jedi, right?

“The Temple was still the greatest nexus of Force energy on the planet, perhaps even the galaxy,

we know it's not the greatest nexus in the galaxy since Luke confirms otherwise in DE, when he said Byss was, and DE Sidious was so powerful he was his own nexus beyond Byss even. Granted we aren't talking about DE Sidious's force powers. but here's the scan anyways.

Ventress at this point also being a match for Anakin and Obi-Wan together while she’s injured. Peers of Mace back at S1 of TCW, growing to an end point that will result in both surpassing Mace.

they weren't peers of Mace. you mentioning this further proves that.

Take this very comfortable gap in comparison to Dooku’s own fights with Ventress.

Dooku bodied a far weaker Ventress. he's certainly proven his superiority over her even at this stage, but it's not as easy of a win where a random blast of force lightning deals her in.

and again, Sidious was able to contend with Yoda in a saber contest while at an extreme disadvantage in the battlefield (before he gained distance to the use the force). he has proven too much for Obi-Wan in sabers.

Not only does Dooku take on this very same Ventress despite not recognising her, but he has had his senses duelled, his sight taken, and she is aided by two Nightsisters who seem to have stalemated Ventress in a duel in a deleted scene. Yet he wins anyway.

deleted scenes aren't canon. and he was losing until he tapped into his rage and hit them with a wave of enraged force lightning. later on in the video I sent of Savage earlier we see him hit Ventress with lightning, and while it does hurt her, it doesn't do her in completely and she's able to break his passive barrier as well to redirect his strike into a pipe, injuring his eye.

And the prime incarnation of Ventress, said to be superior to even Ventress during Obsession, who’s said to be superior to General Grievous, someone who Mace doesn’t think he can beat alone

Mace curbstomped Grevious alone.

However, Dooku remains far more powerful, masterful than Ventress and Savage even without taking into account matchup context and just generally comparing them.

he's not more powerful than Savage. he got overpowered multiple times in that video against him. he's more skilled but not more powerful by any means.

you can make an argument of Dooku being a better duelist than Mace, but the gap is not large at all. and Dooku was unable to disarm Ventress in saber combat and had to use the force to do it.

“Although Opress escapes, he displeases Dooku, leading to brutal combat. Then Ventress strikes. Unable to best the powerful Dooku, the two escape...” - Insider #122

that's an inaccurate description that is disproved simply by watching the video I sent. Savage overpowered Dooku and was only losing due to the huge skill gap. and an enraged Savage was overpowering Dooku and Ventress at the same time to the point they had to momentarily team up with a combined force attack to blow him back and retreat. and Savage tried to go after them but they didn't make it in time.

“Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress wage a combined attack against Dooku, whose abilities with the Force far surpass those of his apprentices.”

the feats of the episode debunk this statement entirely as I just stated. the only argument you can make is that Dooku is more skilled with the force and knows more of it, which is fine. but he isn't more powerful than Savage at all.

"Are you saying that an army of nightsisters can't beat Dooku?”

Yes.

that's fine. the Nightsisters are fodder that could get ragdolled by Dooku's force abilities, with the only valid combatant being Talzin, who obviously can't beat him. and if you're bringing this up due to her fighting Mace, it was a brief fight with no conclusion and she isn't as familiar with Mace as with Dooku.

Anakin > Grievous + droid army, yet Palpatine isn't even sure he can beat Dooku.

that's fine. we have a feat of Mace wiping the floor with Grevious harder than anyone ever has.

But when Mace in the final year of the war is faced by a Talzin who is weakened, she is able to compete with him in a duel, force him to dodge lightning and even gain advantages at one point at the beginning.

we don't know how weakened she was, and she certainly didn't gain any advantage. the moment Mace said "magic is just an illusion" he started pushing her back in that sword clash. the fight lasted about a minute. its hardly a good point to imply Dooku>Windu. Talzin who is weakened to an unknown extent lasted 1 minute against Windu before the fight is interrupted. Dooku isn't fodderizing Talzin. it's just not happening. the nightsisters are fodder in comparison to her, which is why they wouldn't be enough to change the fight in any meaningful way. Dooku could rag doll them if he was pressed hard enough like he did when he was drugged against Ventress and them. but there is no evidence that Dooku could ragdoll Talzin like you're trying to make out.

Sidious still holds Talzin below Dooku as a combatant. She is in a far superior state to when she had fought Mace Windu, and yet she possesses “none of Dooku’s skill”.

she doesn't. while she's proven to be a good sword user, she isn't on the skill level to match Dooku. she could only hold him off for so long. and his powers are also superior and and used in more tactically refined ways.

In YDR, Dooku has a close fight with Yoda where Dooku experiences hinderances in his ability to effectively use his power.

yes we went over this already.

With the result being Dooku is more powerful than ever.

to an unknown extent. everyone got more powerful during the war over time.

Yet Dooku is still able to tag Yoda, make him breathe heavily and is only “slowly, slowly” losing.

“He achieved the near impossible by wounding Master Yoda during a fight on Vjun, before making a tactical withdrawal.” - Star Wars Relaunched Fact File #18

“Although he penetrated Yoda’s defences enough to wound him on the second occasion.” - Star Wars Relaunched Fact File #18

yes, we went over this. I understand Dooku is able to stand up to Yoda at this point, but eventually Yoda (like many) got more powerful over time. apparently to a greater degree than Dooku. he went from being only a little bit superior to Dooku, to being able to hold his own with the guy that completely curbstomped 3 council masters in an instant while fighting the most extremely amped Vapaad Mace ever, and the same guy who was able to defeat DE Luke, who is above the entire Clone Wars era in dueling skills.

During the battle of Boz Pity, Mace attacks Dooku with a leaping strike that is immediately overpowered and pushed to the side.

you're making too big of a deal out of this. he just stopped one incoming strike. no need to overhype this.

Dooku then proceeds to quickly push Mace backwards to the edge of a cliff. Dooku’s aim here isn’t victory either. It’s to evacuate before the Jedi all assemble on his position. He also needs to have Grievous carted out with him.

his aim is to clearly win if he can. but obviously that's not going to happen in time. he's still serious. and saying he pushed Mace back to the cliff is faulty since its a comic and most of fights are off-screen. to say Dooku pushed Mace to the back of the cliff is implying they were in the same position constantly without swapping positions at any point in the fight. Windu was doing fine against Dooku. and this is even more noteworthy since Vapaad can't be used on Dooku nearly as effectively (if at all) because as you said, he doesn't use anger to fight.

In this series, Mace also isn’t certain he can take on Grievous with the help of Anakin. In this story Mace doesn’t know Grievous has 4 arms at this point as he only reveals he has extra arms when he surprises Gallia. There’s no parity or closeness to Dooku here by Mace at all. The gap is incredibly large.

he said "let's regroup" in the middle of a warzone. yeah fighting Grevious in the middle of a huge war could be a problem. it's not even Mace thinking he can't beat Grevious. as you've pointed out, he clearly knows very little about him. so fighting an opponent who's level of skill and power you don't understand fully, but know it's formidable while also in a warzone where anything could happen, it's completely understandable to want to regroup. later we see Windu completely stomp Grevious like I've said before. no one has stomped Grevious as hard as Mace.

During the Battle of Coruscant, Mace Windu concedes inferiority to General Grievous again in Elite Squadron.

Mace seems to be in an enclosed room where he wouldn't be able to bring the full power of his force abilities to bear, as Grevious would be pressuring him too much. Windu's fighting style also isn't really a good one to face against Grevious wielding 4 lightsabers, unlike Obi-Wans Soresu, which would allow him to defend long enough for Grevious to have an opening. Vapaad also can't be used since Grevious isn't a force user. this really just seems like a hard-counter as opposed to superiority, ESPECIALLY since we didn't even see how the fight went down to my knowledge. We've already seen what Mace can do to Grevious under normal circumstances.
Compare that to Grievous, whose feet clamped down to the train’s roof (he’s using Makashi, a footwork orientated style), and only using two arms. Even still, Grievous is able to get Mace Windu’s measure, and analyze his style.

In LoE, Mace fights Grievous, again he comes in with all of the speed, he is all over Grievous, attacking from every angle. Compare that to Grievous, whose feet clamped down to the train’s roof (he’s using Makashi, a footwork orientated style), and only using two arms. Even still, Grievous is able to get Mace Windu’s measure, and analyze his style. Instead of penetrating Grievous’s defenses, Mace decides to screw up his advance, and even still Grievous almost relieves Mace’s head from his body. After this intial confrontation and analysis, Mace believes himself incapable of defeating General Grievous.

And Obi-Wan is the one chosen to go after Grievous. As opposed to Mace Windu who had no task to complete and isn’t protected from going on risky tasks.

"Agreed." Mace Windu looked around the half-empty Council Chamber with a deepening frown. "And one last touch let's let the Chancellor know, through Anakin, that our most cunning and insightful Master-and our most tenacious-is to lead the hunt for Grievous."

"So Sidious will need to act, and act fast, if the war is to be maintained," Plo Koon added approvingly. Yoda nodded judiciously. "Agreed." Agen Kolar assented as well, and Ki-Adi-Mundi.

"This sounds like a good plan," Obi-Wan said. "But what Master do you have in mind?"

For a moment no one spoke, as though astonished he would ask such a question.

Only after a few seconds in which Obi-Wan looked from the faces of one Master to the next, puzzled by the expressions of gentle amusement each and every one of them wore, did it finally register that all of them were looking at him.” - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelisation

Obi-Wan has fought Grevious countless of times. he knows his style better than anyone and is far more used to it. Soresu is also a good fighting style to hold out against Grevious's assault until he makes a mistake, which is exactly what happened in their fight. Obi-Wan was also amped by surrendering himself to the force.

Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.

So now, facing the tornado of annihilating energy that is Grievous's attack, Obi-Wan simply is who he is. The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combatalgorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.

After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blaster fire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult,not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles andcurves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters. Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, attwenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncominglightsaber, but with the handgrip.— slice—

In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him." This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and sorestrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

so even with Obi-Wan being guided by the force and fighting past his normal limits his defenses were overwhelmed, forcing him to counter attack. this Obi-Wan being superior to the one that fought Anakin. it's clear that Grevious gets more skilled throughout the war.
And Obi-Wan is the one chosen to go after Grievous. As opposed to Mace Windu who had no task to complete and isn’t protected from going on risky tasks.

"Agreed." Mace Windu looked around the half-empty Council Chamber with a deepening frown. "And one last touch let's let the Chancellor know, through Anakin, that our most cunning and insightful Master-and our most tenacious-is to lead the hunt for Grievous."

"So Sidious will need to act, and act fast, if the war is to be maintained," Plo Koon added approvingly. Yoda nodded judiciously. "Agreed." Agen Kolar assented as well, and Ki-Adi-Mundi.

"This sounds like a good plan," Obi-Wan said. "But what Master do you have in mind?"

For a moment no one spoke, as though astonished he would ask such a question.

Only after a few seconds in which Obi-Wan looked from the faces of one Master to the next, puzzled by the expressions of gentle amusement each and every one of them wore, did it finally register that all of them were looking at him.” - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelisation

you know this very statement contradicts the other one you sent where Sidious thought that Grievous wouldn't stand a chance against Anakin right? so pick one.

Grievous even thinks he only might lose to a strike team of Jedi made up of Jedi like Mace Windu and Kit Fisto.

“Perhaps if Palpatine had been intelligent enough to have surrounded himself with real Jedi - - Jedi of the caliber of Windu and the tentacle-headed Kit Fisto - - the engagement might have gone differently.” - Labyrinth of Evil

i don't care about Greivous's arrogance. we saw how far that got him with Obi-Wan.

Grievous also thinks Obi-Wan is better than prior Jedi he has faced.

that's his opinion, which could also be bias due to the fact Obi-Wan is a good fight against Grievous and knows his style better than anyone and thus can fight against it better.

Yet when Dooku has to face either opponent Mace concedes inferiority to, he’s either rarely ever pressed hard against Grievous, implying he mostly comfortably winning throughout all their spars, or he’s dominating Obi-Wan.

alright, i'm sending a really long read that will end this. Dooku fought Anakin and Obi-Wan for a very long time. originally they were using different fighting styles compared to their usual ones to throw Dooku off later, but nonetheless he was able to fight both of them easily, landed multiple attacks, and had several opportunities to kill them. Dooku was also dominating both of them with his skill in the force.

Anakin looked up just in time to glimpse the bottom of Dooku's rancor-leather boot as it came down on his face and smacked him tumbling toward the floor; he reached into the Force to effortlessly right himself and touched down in perfect balance to spring again toward the lightning flares, scarlet against sky blue, that sprayed from clashing lightsabers as Dooku pressed Obi-Wan away with a succession of weaving, flourishing thrusts that drove the Jedi's blade out of line while they reached for his heart. Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back—and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at baywith an elegant one-handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the firstone in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked himdown.


He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pickup some chairs of his own—and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall. His lightsaber came loose from his slackening fingers and clatteredacross the tabletop to drop to the floor on the far side.


And Dooku barely even seemed to be paying attention to him.


Pinned, breathless, half stunned, Anakin thought, If this keeps up, I am going to get mad. While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough thathe could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine.


"My my," he said, chuckling. "The boy has some power after all." His back roll brought him to his feet directly in front of the lad, who was charging, headlong and unarmed, after the table he had tossed, and was already thoroughly red in the face.


"I'm twice the Jedi I was last time!"


Ah, Dooku thought. Such a fragile little ego. Sidious will have to help him with that. But until then—


The grip of Skywalker's blade whistled through the air to meet his hand in perfect synchrony with a sweeping slash. "My powers have doubled since we last met—"


"How lovely for you." Dooku neatly sidestepped, cutting at the boy's leg, yet Skywalker's blade met the cut as he passed and he managed to sweep his blade behind his head to slap aside the casual thrust Dooku aimed at the back of his neck—but his clumsy charge had put him in Kenobi's path, so that the Jedi Master had to Force-roll over his partner's head.


Directly at Dooku's upraised blade.


Kenobi drove a slash at the scarlet blade while he pivoted in the air, and again Dooku sidestepped so that now it was Kenobi in Skywalker's way.


"Really," Dooku said, "this is pathetic."


Oh, they were certainly energetic enough, leaping and whirling, raining blows almost at random, cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction,while Dooku continued, in his gracefully methodical way, to out-maneuver them so thoroughly it was all he could to do keep from laughing out loud.


It was a simple matter of countering their tactics, which were depressingly straightforward; Skywalker was the swift one, whooshing here and there like a spastic hawk-bat—attempting a Jedi variant of neek-in-the-middle so they could come at himfrom both sides—while Kenobi came on in a measured Shii-Cho cadence, deliberate as a lumberdroid, moving step by step, cutting off the angles, clumsy but relentlessly dogged as he tried to chivvy Dooku into a corner.


Whereas all Dooku need do was to slip from one side to another—and occasionally flip over a head here and there—so that he could fight each of them in turn, rather than both of them at the same time. He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way.


They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques. They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.


They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.


He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi's balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed thevigos of the Black Sun.

Dooku despite winning is getting tired from this battle

However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man. He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi's gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other's throats. "Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to do better."


Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.


"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.


And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight forDooku's heart.


Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armor weave cloak.


Dooku thought, What?

Obi-Wan and Anakin then switch to their respective styles that they have mastered to throw an already tired Dooku off guard in the middle of the fight.

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure—that had been entirely too close—but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him,blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep—but not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet—and Kenobi's blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down—


Skywalker was already there.


The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.


Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow andeach blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing—and only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.

Dooku also admits that Makashi is poorly suited against Djem So especially while fighting another opponent. even then he continues to land hits and get Anakin off-balance, with Obi-Wan saving him.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataru gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second at tacker.


It was time to alter his own tactics.


He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep—the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility—that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away—Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.


Dooku decided that the comedy had ended.


Now it was time to kill.

Obi-Wan seems to be fairing better than Anakin in saber combat against Dooku, who Dooku has now failed to off-balance, unlike Anakin.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataru form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulderblades—and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used amoment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataru and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.


Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.


Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this...


His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous. These clowns might—just possibly—actually be able to beat him.


No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

Dooku demonstrated superior raw force power to Anakin, as he is able to send Obi-Wan flying. something Anakin failed to do in their final fight and was only met with equal force from Obi-Wan.

He gathered the Force once more in a single in drawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whip crack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it. Skywalker was all over him.

a tired Dooku that has been fighting both Obi-Wan and Anakin for an extremely long period and was stated to be tiring far earlier than the current point is finally getting overpowered by Anakin in a one on one fight. and this is also due to Djem So countering Makashi. and even then Dooku was holding his own.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger. Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.


He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.


He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led upto the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

Obi-Wan also comes back into the picture yet again.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, andDooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.


"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"


Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Dooku was able to get a solid hit on Anakin and Obi-Wan AGAIN despite everything.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could evenhit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of darkpower to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick thatbrought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the JediMaster back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.


Wouldn't that be lovely?


There was no sense in taking chances, however.


While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.


This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.


Now, as for Skywalker—

Anakin gets a hit on Dooku when he barely had time to even turn to him and Dooku has to expend even more of his force reserves to cushion the blow.

Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face withsomething resembling terminal velocity.


The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling head first toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere,and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying. He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradledhim, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet. He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him— and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.


There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had...

one can only imagine how tired Dooku is at this point in the fight.

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. He lifted his blade, and beckoned.


Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.


He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long. Skywalker was a natural.


There was a thermo nuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.


This boy had the gift of fury.


And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behindwalls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.


Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

despite all of this though, Dooku begins to WIN by playing mind games with Anakin until Sidious intervenes.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You arenothing but a posturing child."


He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusingfinger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"


Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met theboy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.


Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'roundeach other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.


Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.


"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!" Dooku thought blankly, "Kill me?"


He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, bladeslocked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?


And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith.

Anakin completely unhindered by his usual emotional tormoil uses his fuel unconflicted rage to eventually (not even instantly) defeat an extremely tired Count Dooku.

This is the death of Count Dooku:


A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too. It is that simple, and that complex.


And it is final.


Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.


The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku and Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing andchopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and rippingthe air around them with snarls of power.


And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy. The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos. Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste—the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life—are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.


It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero. But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.


Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freezeaway his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—But Palpatine's words rage as your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.


When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.


When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.


His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinitesterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.


In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.


Decide.


So he does.


He decides to win.


He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.


He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.


And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.


Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.


But here, now, the truth belies the dream. Both lightsabers are in his hands, and the one in his hand of flesh flares with thesynthetic bloodshine of a Sith blade.


Dooku, cringing, shrinking with dread, still finds some hope in his heart that he is wrong, that Palpatine has not betrayed him, that this has all been proceeding according to plan—


Until he hears "Good, Anakin! Good! I knew you could do it!" and registers this is Palpatine's voice and feels within the darkest depths of all he is the approach of the words that are to come next.


"Kill him," Palpatine says. "Kill him now."


In Skywalker's eyes he sees only flames. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

so Anakin is not above Dooku at all. Dooku demonstrated his superiority over both him and Obi-Wan many times throughout this fight. prehaps "Zoneakin" could beat Dooku even if he was at full strength, but it'd be due to his overwhelming power and fighting style countering Dooku's, not superior swordsmanship. but honestly even saying that Anakin in this state can beat a non-tired Dooku is assumption. Dooku demonstrated how much above Anakin and Obi-Wan he is. i'm really not impressed with an unrestricted Anakin we never see again beating an absurdly tired Dooku whose fighting style he also counters.

what i've posted debunks such a vast majority of your points that I will only address the remaining relevant ones (though I am reading everything you write).

In fact Maul puts so much stain on Mace that from a visual perspective of the ongoing fight, Aayla seems like the bigger threat to fire at.

you could just as well argue that they are trying to go for the weaker target since it's easier to kill.

Aayla’s ability also shouldn’t be underestimated. She manages to get further from the explosion than Mace. At least showing she’s the more nimble/agile fighter of the two Jedi. Maul also gets the furthest from the explosion overall.

your scan doesn't show that at all. they seem to be around the same distance away from it, with the angles at which you see them being very different, making it even harder to tell. and we don't know the positions they were in right before that. Maul holding his own against Mace and someone significantly beneath him is not a big deal honestly, especially since it likely wasn't for a long period and he needed help.

Maul is also physically strong enough to physically assault Grievous and easily be winning in their final fight.

the scan you sent shows him attacking an unarmed Grievous passively standing there. Mace stomped an active Grievous. this isn't helping your argument. and the other scan later of him force pushing Grevious was when Grevious wasn't even looking his direction from the looks of it.

While Dooku when recovering from being drained, possessed and his body having been blasted by Sidious’ lightning for a prolonged period, is able to blast back Maul when both add their power to an even contest between Sidious and Mother Talzin.

that does put him over Maul indeed. I never doubted Dooku's command of the force. my issue is with your incorrect scaling of Star Wars.

During ROTS, it’s implied that Dooku is superior to any Jedi.

implication is debunked by feats.

Mace calling Anakin potentially the strongest Jedi after the news that he got lucky against Dooku.

skipping most of this since what I've posted really debunked a lot of this, but Mace does not know the truth concerning that fight entirely. us readers know what actually happened. Anakin in a state he never reaches again killing an extremely tired Dooku.

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Obi-Wan equaled him in a force contest, so this statement is debunked by a feat.

"An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?"

he is in terms of potential, that is all.

Most powerful Jedi + greatest Hero of the Republic.

greatest hero of the Republic? sure. Most powerful Jedi? heh well we've been over this.

ANAKIN: At last, a sparring partner who will give me a challenge [Anakin doppelganger].

also Anakin:

lol say what you will about who is truly better between Anakin and Obi-Wan, but your arguments imply he isn't a challenge when we know this couldn't be further from the truth.

Starting with Sidious vs Yoda compared to Dooku vs Yoda, the opening to each battle also shows Yoda and Dooku being equals as calculated masters of the force, while Yoda and Sidious are near equals in terms of raw power.

Sidious knocked Yoda out momentarily while Yoda caused no real damage to Sidious and he just got back up after falling into a chair. we see here that Sidious is above Yoda in the force.

The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength.The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow—

Half a second too slow.

The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell. He fell a long way. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

also fun fact, but Obi-Wan was also hindered against Anakin.

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

"The flaw of power is arrogance."

"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion —"

"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."

He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been." - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

When they duelled, unlike with Dooku who Yoda had to exhaust himself to defeat, Yoda ramped up his speed and swiftly disarmed Sidious (Sidious is faster than Yoda too). This was even after Sidious chose the battlefield terrain, opting not for the flat ground of the Office, but the pods.

Sidious did not pick it. where was that stated? that was never covered and somehow the fight just happened to end up there. if he did that just makes him a poor tactician or overconfident.

“An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow. Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus.”

clearly there were more strikes before this, but yeah. Sidious is at a huge disadvantage in saber combat here for obvious reasons.

The novel has Sidious pip Yoda in a vulnerable position and he fell. This in place of the part where Sidious disarms Yoda except it ends the fight and Yoda falls. Such a strategy required his constant retreat between pods and for Yoda to be in a vulnerable position.

you missed the part I sent where it says Yoda is blatantly getting overpowered. in fact it looks like you intentionally left that out since it was a mere sentence before your quote. there's no way you could've missed that. i will post it again.

The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength. The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow—

Half a second too slow.

The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell. He fell a long way. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

“Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.”

again we have feats of Yoda matching Sidious in speed, which debunks this claim.

“Obi-Wan's frown deepened. "No. I don't. The Force grows ever darker around us, and we are all affected by it, even as we affect it. This is a dangerous time to be a Jedi. Please, Anakin-please be careful."

would just like to use this argument as more evidence that Sidious (and Sidious alone really) is completely countering the light-side nexus of the temple.

When compared to Dooku’s fights against Yoda, Dooku has performed far better than Sidious in a duel. Dooku without the issue of fatigue has yet to be disarmed by Yoda, and even when there is fatigue or circumstantial issues then it’s very rare across all interpretations of the AOTC duel out of all their fights, that it occurs. Otherwise Dooku is shown to force Yoda to fight a perfect performance and it still exhausts Yoda to actually win. Dooku then becomes more powerful, smarter and more ferocious and has tricked even Yoda, tagged Yoda and even when he fights more recklessly he still exhausts Yoda in his defeat. While Sidious is pushed back by Yoda, disarmed swiftly by Yoda ramping up his own speed, which Sidious has no reason to be bested by outside a noticeable skill gap since he is faster than Yoda, all while Sidious chose the environment.

maybe I missed it, but please tell me where it says Sidious chose to fight on that small pod. and again, even if he did, that more of speaks to his poor tactics in combat. the fact he was able to fight Yoda for so long on there despite being an obvious extreme disadvantage is a feat alone that puts him above Yoda. especially since Sidious seems to be a Juyo specialist, meaning his primary fighting style he's most skilled with is extremely hindered.

While in turn Mace was only able to match Sidious for a prolonged duel and eventually is able to disarm Sidious. But as soon as Sidious uses lightning, Mace is overwhelmed and on the verge of unwillingly cutting off his own head.

Mace disarming Sidious had to do with the shatterpoint ability and Anakin interfering. one can even argue that Sidious let it happen to make it look like to Anakin that the Jedi really were taking over.

I showed you feats and statements regarding that. You don't get to decide what statements are valid and which statements are not.

it's not about me deciding what's valid, it's about the statements you mention being contradicted by other statements and FEATS.

If we're going from feats and statements alone, Anakin is superior.

Sidious wiped the floor with 3 council masters while fighting an extremely amped Vapaad Mace.

Sidious was stated to move faster than Anakin can perceive.

Sidious has proven to be above Yoda.

Sidious casually wiped the floor with Savage and Maul, with the latter being on the same overall level as Obi-Wan.

Would Anakin, after his fall, be the most powerful enemy ever faced by the Jedi? Yes, because the lore says so.

which is contradicted by a ton of feats and the story itself. from a scheming standpoint? Sidious is objectively the greatest threat the Jedi have faced. from an intelligence standpoint? Sidious again. from a raw power standpoint? well look at what I've posted.

First, Lucas' statement that Anakin equals the Emperor in terms of Force power.

his own story (aka what he wrote) contradicts this.

Anakin equals the Emperor in Force power and surpasses him and Yoda in terms of lightsaber skills.

that's why I much more refined Vader lost to Luke in EP6. and a much older more experienced Luke lost to DE Sidious in a saber fight. feats>statements. statements are fine so long as they aren't contradicted. Vader has numerous statements too putting him above Anakin with no anti-feats.

Vader survived, but not unscarred-his shattered body encased in life-supporting armor and a breath mask. In spite of these handicaps, Vader thrived. in fact, he found a way to turn these to his advantage. He had his breath mask crafted into a sinister black helmet and, donning a black cloak over his black armor, he became a figure out of nightmare. From the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger. - Return Of The Jedi

Sidious is more powerful than Maul, I never contested that. Already showed sources and feats regarding Anakin's standing, which affects how good Obi-Wan is with a lightsaber by the end of ROTS.

Maul is a general equal of Obi-Wan, who is a general equal of Anakin. see the problem here?

Sources? Gillard mentions that Anakin performed the way he did due to mistakes made during the fight, not because he lost access to the bulk of his power.

i didn't say Mustafar Anakin lost the bulk of his power, just that he has absolutely nothing to put him on the level of Zone Anakin, let alone above. Zone Anakin is Anakin using the dark side with completely clarity of mind. that's obviously superior to using the darkside while emotionally conflicted. you were trying to make out Mustafar Anakin was somehow superior to Zone Anakin, which simply doesn't make sense.

That's the logic you are using. He is in Anakin's general league because the top tiers are not that far apart in Revenge of the Sith.

exactly. but Sidious has mopped the floor with top-tiers (council masters) because he's a god-tier.

Obi-Wan matches Anakin, correct?

correct.

Anakin is stated by Word of God to be as powerful as the Emperor and better than everyone with lightsabers.

disproven by feats.

Anakin then makes mistakes which allow Obi-Wan to overcome him in battle and Obi-Wan wins.

define "making mistakes". that just sounds to be like he isn't as good as you say he is if he's making enough mistakes to lose. also you do know that there is statements of Yoda being the greatest enemy the darkside has ever faced, which would include Anakin and possibly even Zone Anakin since he is still against the Sith at the time.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just—didn't—haveit. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

moving on.

The only display of them being even comparable in Force power is a Force push, something that has never been a metric to gauge parity.

why not? it was a prolonged struggle. its a good way to gauge it if anything.

What you get from this is: Obi-Wan can match an Anakin who is making mistakes and Anakin isn't even trying to assault Obi-Wan with the Force throughout the duel to show the aspect that makes him equal to the Emperor.

don't really get what "mistakes" would come into play in a contest of raw power that isn't about skill. and you're still being vague on "mistakes."

Read this answer by Hidalgo which will come up later as well.

meta arguments are not arguments. by this logic nothing is debateable because its all up to chance. we use facts and logic to determine who wins in fictional debates.

You said a lot without actually saying anything.

i could say the same to you, especially since you reposted what I debunked right before saying this.

Vader is sub-Anakin. He also speaks on behalf of Lucas.

same guy that uses meta arguments and doesn't like commenting on who is better than who. don't buy it. especially since the EU novels state Vader is superior via narration.

Sidious declines in skill as time passes due to lack of training.

sources? and even if this was true, that makes him even more impressive since a rusty Sidious defeated DE Luke in saber combat. this really isn't helping your argument. but to throw you a bone, even if he was rusty it wouldn't drop him down an entire tier.

I don't think it is. First, you have to understand what was needed to defeat DE Sidious. It took DE Luke, Leia and Anakin Solo, all united in complete Oneness to overwhelm the Emperor's Force powers. Leia couldn't even use the Force efficiently during Dark Empire and Anakin Solo couldn't even use the Force at all. As one source states, they likely joined the Force-sensitivities to overwhelm Sidious, and not their current power.

don't really get what this has to do with DE Sidious's first fight with DE Luke.

Luke, Leia and Anakin Solo all have Anakin-level sensitivities. Meaning it took the combined Force-sensitivity of the three most sensitive Force beings in galactic history to overwhelm Sidious. This feat is crazy, and is further confirmed by the fact that all Jedi who had ever lived had to join forces to keep Sidious down for good. You see the contrast? What was needed to overwhelm his Force powers and what was needed to overwhelm his skills and augmentation?

its not really a difference. it just makes Luke that powerful. the problem is that Luke with Leia still had no way to stop Sidious's spirit from continuing on, which took all of the Jedi in history to trap forever while he was trapped in the body of another Jedi. and even that may not last forever since Sidious states he gets stronger every moment.

 

[aeneax]

sorry for the late reply. but no, i'm sorry to say that I will not be joining a Discord. those are notorious shit fest with all due respect to you. i'd prefer to keep our civil conversation here, as restrictive as it may be.

We can do a Suspect Showdown on the site itself instead of fast-paced debate that can be interrupted on Discord, but if you're not down that's fine. Debating without some ground level rules can turn things south pretty quick (like it happened here). The VS Battles Wiki doesn't follow Lucasfilm Licensing continuity policy or recognizes G-canon, so we can both just shrug off anything presented without actually committing (Suspect Showdowns have judges, few number of posts per side with a conclusion by the end and character limitations).

 

[CrystalValley]

We can do a Suspect Showdown on the site itself instead of fast-paced debate that can be interrupted on Discord, but if you're not down that's fine. Debating without some ground level rules can turn things south pretty quick (like it happened here). The VS Battles Wiki doesn't follow Lucasfilm Licensing continuity policy or recognizes G-canon, so we can both just shrug off anything presented without actually committing (Suspect Showdowns have judges, few number of posts per side with a conclusion by the end and character limitations).

i'm really not motivated enough to do that. and i don't care about judges since that really just falls under an appeal to common belief fallacy. but I'd just like to point out that I wasn't really using the tiering system here for my arguments. my arguments just so happened to align with them to an extent. also I didn't think things turned south here. outside of extremely long post and heavy disagreements, we were both civil.

but since I'm not really down to do that thing on the site, we can just civilly agree to disagree. was fun debating with you, despite the disagreements.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

We can do a Suspect Showdown on the site itself instead of fast-paced debate that can be interrupted on Discord, but if you're not down that's fine. Debating without some ground level rules can turn things south pretty quick (like it happened here). The VS Battles Wiki doesn't follow Lucasfilm Licensing continuity policy or recognizes G-canon, so we can both just shrug off anything presented without actually committing (Suspect Showdowns have judges, few number of posts per side with a conclusion by the end and character limitations).

You have CaVs and SSs that haven't seen any activity for months and here you are procuring to create even more

judges since that really just falls under an appeal to common belief fallacy

Tbf, judges have never taken a side based on that but I honestly wouldn't recommend participating anyway. Star Wars vs debates today are 95% about finesse and redirecting your opponent's attention to trap them and 5% about actual lore knowledge
--

OP: Buddhanobi stomps

 

[CrystalValley]

Star Wars vs debates today are 95% about finesse and redirecting your opponent's attention to trap them and 5% about actual lore knowledge

honestly that's debates in general sadly 95% of the time.

 

[aeneax]

You have CaVs and SSs that haven't seen any activity for months and here you are procuring to create even more

In 95% of those, I am the one waiting for my opponent's rebuttal (specially on Amino and SB), and that's why there hasn't been any new posts. A lot of members got busy irl, so 2020 and 2021 were and still are shitty years for debating.