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Dante VS Joker

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We don't overestimate, he just never has to. Since when has he faced an enemy that was A. Impossible for him to defeat normally and B. Not so much more powerful than him that he gets one-shot.

Urizen wasn't sealed by Dante because Urizen was A. Vergil and Dante knew this, so he has an in character reason to not seal, and B. So much more powerful than Dante that he was one-shot before he could really do anything major.

Argosax wasn't sealed because Dante was so much more powerful he utterly stomped him. Why would he bother?

The Savior wasn't sealed because it was an At Least 7-B fighting a 3-A, Possibly Low 2-C. Again, why would Dante bother?

The only person Dante has sealed was Mundus, who was A. Impossible for Dante to normally defeat, and B. About equal to Dante.

In this Joker fight, Joker is far weaker, but he is also immune to anything Dante can throw at him. Dante, equally, is immune to most things Dante can throw at him. And given that most bosses on Joker's level don't resist Death Manipulation, yet are still unaffected by instant death spells, I'd still say that Joker's instant death effects are only useful on lower tiers.

Add on that Dante might have resistance to instant death with Rebuble's earlier point, it might not matter in the first place. So, Dante wins via Sealing. Both pull their trumps at the same time, and even if Dante's unable resist instant death, he has the range advantage, the speed advantage with the Quick Heart, the fact that Dante can use Time Stop, which Joker does not resist, and Dante's massive AP advantage, Dante takes this in my opinion.

Joker has to use Physical Immune Persona's, which massively limit his choices. He has to use one-shot moves, or else he can't make a dent. Most of his one-shot moves don't work on Dante, and the others have a reasonable amount of doubt.

Also, Alice does not resist Physical. Which means that if Joker pulls her out, he will die in short order.

TL;DR: Voting for Dante, The Devilish Demon Debonair Doubtlessly Drowning in Debt.
 
Wait, Dante has only sealed once???

**** that, man. People have been treating him like he's Princess Zelda and seals almost immediately.
 
For the Sinful Shell point, it needs to be specified that Joker doesn't have that in this fight. This is End-Game Joker, which is specified on his profile to be just before he gets Satanael. I'm still debating who exactly to vote for, since there seems to be good arguments on both sides, but this is a point that needs to be specified; Sinful Shell is not a win-con for Joker.
 
KnightOfSunlight said:
We don't overestimate, he just never has to. Since when has he faced an enemy that was A. Impossible for him to defeat normally and B. Not so much more powerful than him that he gets one-shot.

Urizen wasn't sealed by Dante because Urizen was A. Vergil and Dante knew this, so he has an in character reason to not seal, and B. So much more powerful than Dante that he was one-shot before he could really do anything major.

Argosax wasn't sealed because Dante was so much more powerful he utterly stomped him. Why would he bother?

The Savior wasn't sealed because it was an At Least 7-B fighting a 3-A, Possibly Low 2-C. Again, why would Dante bother?

The only person Dante has sealed was Mundus, who was A. Impossible for Dante to normally defeat, and B. About equal to Dante.

In this Joker fight, Joker is far weaker, but he is also immune to anything Dante can throw at him. Dante, equally, is immune to most things Dante can throw at him. And given that most bosses on Joker's level don't resist Death Manipulation, yet are still unaffected by instant death spells, I'd still say that Joker's instant death effects are only useful on lower tiers.

Add on that Dante might have resistance to instant death with Rebuble's earlier point, it might not matter in the first place. So, Dante wins via Sealing. Both pull their trumps at the same time, and even if Dante's unable resist instant death, he has the range advantage, the speed advantage with the Quick Heart, the fact that Dante can use Time Stop, which Joker does not resist, and Dante's massive AP advantage, Dante takes this in my opinion.

Joker has to use Physical Immune Persona's, which massively limit his choices. He has to use one-shot moves, or else he can't make a dent. Most of his one-shot moves don't work on Dante, and the others have a reasonable amount of doubt.

Also, Alice does not resist Physical. Which means that if Joker pulls her out, he will die in short order.

TL;DR: Voting for Dante, The Devilish Demon Debonair Doubtlessly Drowning in Debt.
Click to expand...
Awesome post ma boi

Going with Dante FRA
 
Dante: 5 (AogiriKira, Dante Demon Killah, KnightOfSunlight, Thatsafloridathing, Modernmyrmidon)

Joker: 1 (The real cal howard)
 
A lot of misconceptions being thrown around here.

1. Joker's Instant Death Spells:

  • All of Joker's instant-death spells are only "chance-based" because everything in Persona resists Death Manip. The stronger death spells have higher chances to work because they're more potent while the death resistance doesn't change notably among Shadows as the game progresses. For someone who doesn't resist death manipulation, Mudo is just as likely to kill as Die For Me!, and Hama is just as likely to kill as Samsara.
2. Range:

  • All of Joker's spells have several kilometres in range, including his death spells. So Dante's sealing being ranged gives him no advantage in that aspect. Spells also manifest instantly at the target's location, so it's even harder for Dante to dodge.
3. Skill Availability:

  • Joker being the Wild Card, he can fuse any skill to any Persona he wishes. Seeing as there are thousands of possible combinations, his profile explicitly states that he theoretically can have any and every skill/spell on any and every Persona. This includes passive skills like "Null Physical", which can easily be given to Alice. There are only a handful of exceptions, such as Morning Star being unique to Lucifer, Die For Me! being unique to Alice, and Samsara being unique to Daisoujou.
4. Time Stop:

  • Joker resists Time Stop, as that's where his feat of time manip resistance comes from in the first place.
5. Speed:

  • He also reacts to Dante's speed with the Quick Heart thanks to his Third Eye, which massively speeds up his reaction speed.
Please consider all of this before making further votes.
 
Third eye is enhanced senses, not enhanced reactions.

Dante would still be able to dodge quite Easily in his DT form due to his massive speed amps.

As for Alice having null physical, that still doesn't make Ren able to resist getting sealed by Dante, and he'd have to be able to hit Dante in the first place, which will be hard because of quick heart.

Also Dante still has range advantage due to his range being tens of kilometers, with Ren's range only being several
 
Joker's Die For Me is an AOE death spell. He also has speed amps of his own in Sukukaja and Heat Riser.

"Third Eye: A special ability that Ren received as a gift from Igor. With it, he can spot barely-visible details, increase his reaction time, discern the importance of seemingly-mundane objects, as well as estimate the strength of an opponent in relation to himself."

^^ Listed right on the profile, buddy. Should probably read it the whole way through.
 
Third eye is a passive ability yes? Well it's not quantified how much it speeds up his reaction, but it also sounds like an explanation for why he can evade attacks. Besides Third Eye isn't even listed on his speed, so it doesn't seem very applicable here.

As for Sukukaja and Heat Riser, those are also things he would have to cast separately yes? How much do they increase his speed by?
 
Third Eye can make things that Joker can barely react to look as if they're moving in slow motion. As for -kaja buffs, about 30% increase, basing off of past games.
 
I have to say, I appreciate KnightOfSunlight using the title I have to Dante for his vote! Even so, I'm actually inclined to go for inconclusive. Assuming that Alice will have null physical seems a bit unreasonable to me, since while it is possible to do so it's very rarely applied to her and he can't apply it mid-battle. Even with Satanael, Dante seems to have a notable AP advantage (at least, it seems so) so if Joker 1: Doesn't have the Omnipotent Orb 2: Switches out of his null phys Personas Then he's going to be pretty badly damaged, and I'd say Dante would quite easily take the win at that point. However, it would be entirely possible for Joker to have at least 1 Persona with null phys and an insta-kill ability. Essentially, this comes down to who has what. If Joker has a Persona with both an insta-kill skill and null phys (which is a rare combination, mind you, but not impossible) then he can take this easily. But if he doesn't, he doesn't have many ways of hurting Dante without putting himself in serious risk of being one-shotted.

So in conclusion, I think the match comes down to what Persona's Joker has and what abilities they have. Assuming that he has every Persona with every ability and he can use all of them at the perfect times is completely unreasonable, but that wouldn't be necessary for him to win. He'd just have to have a Persona with a specific set of skills that are rare, but entirely possible. Without further clarification, this pretty much comes down to chance.
 
Dante: 6 (AogiriKira, Dante Demon Killah, KnightOfSunlight, Thatsafloridathing, Modernmyrmidon, Tony di bugalu)

Joker: 1 (The real cal howard)

Inconclusive: 1 (Darkgrath)
 
Just gonna point good abilities that Joker has that can be used against Dante.

He can reduce the probability of Dante hitting him with an attack by 50%, he can instantly kill Dante with AoE death attacks, can increase the potency of said Death attacks, can increase his power, can power null Dante and make him forget how to use Sealing, can put Dante to sleep, and nullify almost all of Dante's attacks with the Omnipotent Orb.

Yes, the Omnipotent Orb is included and I've confirmed it in a previous comment
 
Okay, now that I have enough time to freely tackle this behemoth, let's go.

1. The instant death argument.

This argument is, quite frankly, Joker's only wincon. Anything else Joker can throw out, Dante either resists, or it doesn't have enough effect to qualify as a wincon. Dante's own AP and Durability hard counter and massively outweigh Joker's own, so he has to rely on these. However, they are still "moves". They still need to hit. Hama and it's other versions need the spirit tags to make contact, and Mudo's related spells need the doll to do the same. Die for me needs the bears (sidenote: I never realized how weird the move actually looked) to actually hit. All of these physical moves are required to lad the death manipulation in Joker's case. In which case, Dante has instinctive reaction, a 10x speed boost, minor precog, acrobatics, etc, etc. Dodging anything Joker throws at him will be relatively effortless.

2. Range.

Dante has tied range, since the range aspect is true. And the spells manifesting at the target's loaction is both somewhat true, as certain spells do seem to actually travel from Joker towards the enemy, such as the much mentioned "Die For Me!". Even so, Dante's aforementioned boosts negate this, especially his instinctive reactions. All Dante needs is for Joker to leave a single opening, and then he seals. And considering we've already established that Dante can duck, dodge, diners, drive-ins, and dives all of Joker's spells, this shouldn't be too hard. Even more so since Dante can fire on the move.

3. Skills Avalibility.

In this case, it feels kinda wanky and hardcore bs to say "any Persona can have any skill, so we literally can't measure Joker's possible combos." It's far better for us to rely on the information we have at hand, which is the skill lists provided on the page for Joker. Just saying that Joker can have any skill on any Persona seems like a no limits fallacy, though I'm unfamiliar with the term. I'd still say this gets Occum's Razored as it relies heavily on the assumption that Joker will have that specific skill on that specific Persona. And again, Dante dodges almost everything Joker throws because a 10x speed boost is far superior to a 50% (1.5x) accuracy boost.

4. Time Stop

Joker does not resist this. That is objectively false. He has Time Manip, yes, but not to the degree of stopping time. There is not a single instance in which Joker resists someone halting time as a whole.

5. Speed

A 10x boost, halved, is still a 5x boost. Joker's buffs to his own speed only drive him up 50%, which is only a 1.5x boost. No where near even the halved speed Dante would have, if Joker can half his speed in the first place (the debuffs have things that 'hit" the enemy too, thoough this could be debated. Even still, it wouldn't change much). And assuming that Third Eye is such a massive buff to Joker's reactions that he can catch someone with a 10x speed boost when the highest possible boost he's even encountered was a 1.5x is downright foolish.

And finally, point 6. Mind Manip

Dante resists, gg. Any of Joker's mind manip skills will not work here. So no, Dante will not be affected by Joker's mind hax.

All in all, vote unchanged. Dante seals after a hard-diff fight. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to not typing small essays on fictional characters.
 
Time manip resist =/= Time Stop resist.

Resisting changes to the flow of time are infinitely inferior to resisting the entire flow of time stopping.

Think of it like a river. Slowing or speeding the flow of a river is far easier to do than stopping the river cold.
 
KnightOfSunlight said:
Time manip resist =/= Time Stop resist.

Resisting changes to the flow of time are infinitely inferior to resisting the entire flow of time stopping.

Think of it like a river. Slowing or speeding the flow of a river is far easier to do than stopping the river cold.
Click to expand...
This is a correct statement.
 
Tony di bugalu said:
EoG Dante >>>>>Urizen PF>>>>>>Urizen>>>>>DMC4/5>>>DMC2 Dante>>>>Void Mundus>>>Mundus=Argosax>=Baseline.

That is the scaling chain but I dont really know where does sparda and the others fall here.
Click to expand...
Just to note, I would hardly call Void Mundus ">>>" normal Mundus. The only statement made is that he might be stronger than the normal version by Dante. Not even definite. All we can say is that he is slightly stronger. And Dante implies during their fight that the general level was still the same, so really, Void Mundus is only a decent bit stronger, if that.
 
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