Danny/Dan Phantom Acausality? Vortex's Sunlight weakness?

[LordGriffin1000]

Note: The Acausality debate is over, the focus is Vortex's Weaknesses

So in the episode "The Ultimate Enemy" where danny goes up against his future self clock work freezes time and saves Danny's friends and family after Danny beats Dan making it so he would not turn into his future self. After this the Observo ghosts (the ones with the one eye) tell clockwork he is now charged with watching over Danny and his future self now that Dan exists outside the normal flow of time. Since Dan didn't get erased from existence after they altered time would this give him Acausality or not

Edit: I would also like to add in the episode "Masters of All Time" Clockwork allows Danny to go back to the past before Vlad's accident. When Danny saves Vlad he causes the future to change to where Vlad ends up with Madie and Jack becomes a Ghost so Jazz and Danny where never born but even after changing it Danny is still alive and didn't fade from existence so would he have Acausality as well?

Also Vortex's page says he is weak against direct sunlight but in the episode "Torrent of Terror" at the beginning of the episode after Vlad set him free and forced him to created a heatwave he was laying on a cloud with the sun shining directly on him. I thought he was getting weaker because danny was beating at his own game and his willpower was not strong enough to beat Danny's emotions. Plus in the last episode "Phantom Planet" Vlad's ghost hunting squad reflects Vortex's lightning back at him and he shrinks so its most likely if he take enough damage or loses his will to fight he shrinks and gets weak

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Bump

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm good find. Also btw if the Ghost hunting sqaud (Depending on how they did it) was reflecting Vortex's lightning, then wouldnt it scale over to Danny and the others who are superior? Making them MHS+?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well Danny showed up first and got blasted by Vortex's lightning then the ghost hunters showed up in their jet, Vortex then shots lighting at them but they put their shields up and redirected it back at him so Danny can't scale because he couldn't dodge it.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Bump

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Bump

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Ghostly Bump

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Ghost Zone Bump

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Bump

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I think it's legit

 

[Lina_Shields]

Your proposal seems to make sense, according to the definitions for Acausality.

Even if you go back in time and kill an acausal being in the past or prevent him/her/it from being born/created, it will still exist in the present and other timelines.

Just to clarify, Danny's future self is Dan? Is that correct?

his future self clock work freezes time and saves Danny's friends and family after Danny beats Da making it so he would not turn into his future self.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with this

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

It's been a some years, but from what I remember, Dan Phantom is essentially Danny from the future, which Danny made bad life decisions, which eventually lead to him being evil.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I would say that Danny and Dan were just changing timelines instead of having acausality.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Lina Shields yes Dan is Danny's future self

@Gwynbleiddd Danny changed his past by saving Vlad which in turn made it so his parents never got together which in turn made it he was never born. Wouldn't doing that and not being erased mean he is Acasuality?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So is this Acasuality or not? Gwynbleiddd doesn't seem to agree and says their just changing timelines but their is only one timeline and they altered it and didn't get effected by the changes yet everyone else did except Clockwork but he's the ghost of time and watches over the time stream.

Dark Danny aka Dan still exists even though Danny change the past making so he doesn't turn into him. Danny then messes up the past and alters the future making it so his parents never get to together and don't have kids but Danny doesn't fade from existence. Both of these seem to fit the requirement for Acasuality don't they?

Also no one seems to have a problem with removing Vortex weakness so can it removed? It is completely contradicted at the beginning of the episode when Vortex is sitting on a cloud with direct sunlight shining down on him plus he also was shrinking when he got hit with a tornado and slammed around so it seems to shrink when taking damage

 

[Antvasima]

Changing one's future to a different timeline is not the same thing as acausality. By that logic all Marvel characters would be acausal.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Antvasima "Even if you go back in time and kill an acasual being or prevent him/her/it from being born/created, it will still exist in the present and other timelines".

Both of their scenarios fit the description, Danny still existed even though he change the past and his birth never happened and no one remembered him, Dan sill exist even though his past was change as Danny defeated him and Clockwork saved his friends and family and Danny never turned into him yet he still exist, Dan creation and Danny's birth never happened because the past was change yet the still exist am I missing something.

I would like to add there is only one timeline in Danny Phantom not multiple ones

 

[Antvasima]

So Danny's timeline ceased to exist, but Danny himself was unaffected? If so, that does seem like acausality, yes.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I'm a little confused on the whole what makes someone acasual. For example I understand that requirement is if you survive not being erased after someone kills you in the past. However is that logic always the same for every fiction.

not only the examples pointed out from marvel with characters still alive after they get killed in the past or alter events so they don't become who they were now.

But I recall a very similar but much more disturbing event with futurama, WHERE fry goes back in time to meet his grandpa, however he ends up accidentally killing him thus ending his Hanover of existing, however they pointed out he doesn't get erased for some reason.

And the reason being was he was still stuck in the past so he had a chance to exist in the present by uhhhhh(kind of disturbing but this really happened.) accidentally having sex with his grandma thus becoming his own grandpa?(idk this was a weird.weird episode, don't worry this example will make sense soon enough.)

What I'm getting at is, for situations like this, should we always assume characters have acasuailty just because they didn't get erased when someone kills them in the past or should we investigate the context to know if people dying in the past in their fictional verse means automatic erasure or not.

Edit: Cause not every verse has the same physics on how time works, ie, some follow the butterfly effect others don't etc etc, I feel this Logic should apply to second whether or not a character gets a acadualty.

Cause I feel like we shouldn't automatically assume something like acasualty unless within said verse mentions the idea of acasuality(i.e. Character in the verse doesn't die when killed in the past

people state he should be dead or erased but isn't, thus he gets acasualty.)

however if the character gets killed in the past, and doesn't die without anything from the story indicating why he isn't dead or don't state he should be dead, than we should chalk it up to skewed physics or logic and not give them acasualty.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Please forgive me for rambling I'm just contemplating whether or not acasual Danny phantom would make sense or not.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that this may not be a clear-cut case. Further staff input would be appreciated.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I highlighted to get more input on the matter itself and more staff input.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Grudgeman1706 I understand what your talking about my brother said the same thing about different physics.

I rewatched the episode "The Ultimate Enemy" and it begins with the Observers coming to Clockwork asking him to kill Danny in the past so the future will change and Dan won't exist meaning they believe that if Danny dies in the past his future self will be erased and even Dan himself says his future is set and all he needs to do is let everyone die in the explosion then Danny will turn into him but this dose not happen, Danny uses the Ghostly Whale then sucks up Dan into the thermes and Clockwork saves his family which in turn makes it so Danny never turns into Dan and Dan's future never happens. Yet at the end of the episode the Observers tell Clockwork Danny is now his responsibility and so is his future self Dan now that he exists outside of time.

This means Dan is not affected by his past since he wasn't erased even though Observers believed he would be erased.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems reasonable, yes.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I'm not sure about this, I have seen that episode of Danny phantom, and like @Gweniddad(KKapios) stated it could just be a case of timeline diverging ir better yet, the butterfly effect so to speak.

In that same episode, the event that would lead to future Danny's birth never happened and while you can make a case that this should prove acasualty for future Danny or regular Danny.

However as ice stated in my previous comment, fictions tend to ignore certain aspects with concepts like time or space or physics itself really. In order to understand it beetle we need to know the fictions interpretation of how time itself works in Danny's verse.

Like even though future Danny's timeline ceases to exist because the events never happen, maybe perhaps the reason he was able to exist still was because he wasn't erased in that specific timeline or period. Lots of fictions use the idea that since you exist in the present even though the future is gone you still can exist. (Theory's of time are messy.)

Or you could argue the time medallion Danny wears could give him acasualty as its not effected by time based attacks or powers in general. Thus he could possibly have acasualty with the time medallion(I can buy this one, but Danny on his own feels fishy or not 100% certain.)

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Other than that I still stand by my point with all verses when dealing with acasualty must be taken with caution and explore the context within the verse about time or the reasonings of acasualty.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Alright I have just rewatched the "Masters of All Time" episode and I'll try to explain it as best I can. Danny ask Clockwork to go back in time so he can to save his friends and stop Vlad from getting his powers, Clockwork tells him that changing the past will have disastrous effects yet still let's him go back but tells him not to destroy the past. Now after Danny stops Vlad from getting his powers Clockwork brings Danny back to the present but know everything has change his parents aren't together they never had kids yet Danny is somehow still alive.

Now this is where the show differs from others like how if time was change people in photographs would disappear but in this did not happen and Danny still has a Photo of his family which should be impossible if time was altered but anyway after they finally believe him Danny says he's lucky he has scientists for parents since they believe he's a different version from a another timeline/universe where they are all together but when his dad asks him how his sister doing Danny must says that's complicated as he knows she was erased and their is no alternative timeline just this one. Now at the end Clockwork rewinds time again setting the future back to the way it was before he meddled, Danny figures out the cure without needing to go back in time and saves his friends. So now that future never happened and everything is the same.

Danny wasn't erased even though he altered his past and changed the future just like Dan.

I also would like to apologize if I didn't explain it well and if I seem a bit annoying, I'm tired and about to go to sleep and I'm not goona be online tommorw so I wanted to write this fast.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Dan should have it as he was side to exist outside of time as for danny i'm inclined to believe the only reason he didn't disappear was because clockwork made sure he didn't clockwork knows how things will happen from the fourth dimensional view and planed the events of that entire episode.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems to have been treated more like plot convenience than an actual power, but I am not certain.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Well, it seems to have been treated more like plot convenience than an actual power, but I am not certain.

I beleve dannys is pote covence or clck work medling but i think dans is true.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Cartoon Network tends to be pretty bad with time travel stuff, so I don't know.

But if he was truly stated to exist outside of space and time, and survived having his own timeline erased, then it sounds like Acausality to me.

 

[Newendigo]

Bumping the thread for more imput.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

It sounds a lot like plot convience to me.

Dan Phantom (Dark/Future Danny) being said to exist outside of time was something I chalked up to Clockwork keeping him in his lair, which I believe to be immune to timeline alterations and paradoxes (Clockwork gets visitors from alternate timelines). Future Danny residing there means that he can't be affected by any timeline issues. We also never see him get out to see what could possibly happen to him.

As for Danny himself, there's no true explanation as to why he can still exist despite changing the past. We can't assume he's acausal due to the fact that there's not enough information about time issues for the Danny Phantom verse. We also, cannot rule out the fact that Clockwork is possibly shielding him. (If Clockwork's entire lair is immune and shielded from timeline issues, what's to say he can't shield Danny?)

Given the fact that either answer is plausible, I'd vote Danny not getting Acausality, based on the fact there's not enough evidence to swing it either direction.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that TheC2 seems to make sense.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Do we need to write a proper explanation for why Danny Phantom is not acausal despite the feats displayed?

It is just to clear out any confusion regarding the whole acausal issue and all

 

[Antvasima]

A footnote in his page would probably be a good idea, yes.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Any ideas what the footnote should be written as? Would there be a length limit for the footnote being written for Dan not being acausal?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I don't mind them not being acausal I just wanted to bring it up and see what others thought and I can agree that Danny not being erased could be due to plot but what dose Dan not being erased be due to plot its not like the creator allowed him to survived so he bring him back in a later episode as this is Dan's first and last appearance. At the end of the episode Dan is stated to now exist outside the flow of time even though the Observers believed he and his future will be erased, the future never happened but Dan lived yet if most people agree that its plot I don't mind if he doesn't have it.

Can I remove Vortex's weakness to direct sunlight cause around the beginning of "Torrent of Terror" he is laying on a cloud with direct sunlight shining on him and when Danny hit him with a tornado and slammed him against a building he shrunk more so unless he's also weak to wind I would say its due to plot that sunlight harmed him and just say the more damage he takes the weaker and smaller he becomes.

 

[Antvasima]

@Lina Shields I am not sure, but the footnote should preferably be concise. Maybe TheC2 has some ideas for what it should say?