Dank Souls - It gets Danker

[Sir_Ovens]

So if no one has any qualms, I will apply the accepted parts of the revision.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So is that everything?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Since the King of the Storm has a Profile now, we should link that in the Nameless King's Equipment where it says "his stormdrake".

Just to make sure this didn't get ignored. Also, we should really link the Curse-Rotted Greatwood Calc to the Ashen One's Profile since that's what they Scale to.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I found something to back up Phoenix's assessment of Subjective Reality Miracles.

During Dark Souls, when the Gods were still at a higher peak of existence, Resonance Rings were commonplace and created whenever someone performed a Miracle. Miracles performed in the presence of Resonance Rings were boosted in potency, giving credence to the idea that Miracles are "events" rather than attacks.

Furthermore, the four Miracles that drop Resonance Rings are Bountiful Sunlight, Great Heal, Soothing Sunlight, and Wrath of the Gods. All those Miracles either directly originate from the Gods or derived from them in some way.

How does this link to Way of White Corona? Read the description. It states that the Miracle was created due to a yearning for aureoles (Resonance Rings). That yearning became real and took the form of Way of White Corona. It makes so much sense canonically since the only person in the whole world besides Patches who was still alive since Dark Souls is Gael. He would have known about the Resonance Rings and it makes sense that he's the only character in existence who has this Miracle since he's likely the only one who remembers Resonance Rings.

It also fits that Patches doesn't have it because he hates Clerics.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I found something to back up Phoenix's assessment of Subjective Reality Miracles.

During Dark Souls, when the Gods were still at a higher peak of existence, Resonance Rings were commonplace and created whenever someone performed a Miracle. Miracles performed in the presence of Resonance Rings were boosted in potency, giving credence to the idea that Miracles are "events" rather than attacks.

Furthermore, the four Miracles that drop Resonance Rings are Bountiful Sunlight, Great Heal, Soothing Sunlight, and Wrath of the Gods. All those Miracles either directly originate from the Gods or derived from them in some way.

How does this link to Way of White Corona? Read the description. It states that the Miracle was created due to a yearning for aureoles (Resonance Rings). That yearning became real and took the form of Way of White Corona. It makes so much sense canonically since the only person in the whole world besides Patches who was still alive since Dark Souls is Gael. He would have known about the Resonance Rings and it makes sense that he's the only character in existence who has this Miracle since he's likely the only one who remembers Resonance Rings.

It also fits that Patches doesn't have it because he hates Clerics.

The Way of White Corona doesn't say that. It says some wished for the aureoles to return. Again, you're making a leap in logic that isn't fully supported by the reading. I also don't understand how Gael using it supports it being subjective reality.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah, aureoles are Resonant Rings. Within context, it makes sense. They look the same, and they're used by the one character in DS3 that would have remembered a time when Resonant Rings were a thing.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Even if miracles are subjective reality (which they aren't) it's extremely limited and literally doesn't function as standard subjective reality quite clearly.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I mean, if it's subjective reality it wouldn't be limited. It's just retelling a story and that story actually manifesting if you accept it. You can tell by looking at the Subjective Reality page.

The only way it's limited is that it applies to Miracles alone, but it would function like normal subjective reality.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

if you have to recite someone elses story to do something as basic as form a spear of lightning, thats pretty limited to me for people who can't literally create new miracles or have no feats of doing so.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I don't see how. It's only limited in the fact it only works with those stories. It functions entirely normally.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

I feel like people are once again misunderstanding what was proposed.

No one ever said Miracle users could make up Miracles on the spot. Them being Subjective Reality would just be the mechanic by which the power works, similarly to how all Magic is Reality Warping in D&D and Elder Scrolls and tons more verses, but that doesn't let them Reality Warp at will.

It's not "Limited", but it's also not something that makes them any more haxed.


Also, I feel the need to point out, for the above. Almost nothing in Souls lore is fully supported by the text and completely clear, that's not how the storytelling of the series works. It's all heavily interpretation based, and works off of extrapolating from existing information.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, aureoles are Resonant Rings. Within context, it makes sense. They look the same, and they're used by the one character in DS3 that would have remembered a time when Resonant Rings were a thing.

This isn't relevant to what I said.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I feel like people are once again misunderstanding what was proposed.

No one ever said Miracle users could make up Miracles on the spot. Them being Subjective Reality would just be the mechanic by which the power works, similarly to how all Magic is Reality Warping in D&D and Elder Scrolls and tons more verses, but that doesn't let them Reality Warp at will.

It's not "Limited", but it's also not something that makes them any more haxed.


Also, I feel the need to point out, for the above. Almost nothing in Souls lore is fully supported by the text and completely clear, that's not how the storytelling of the series works. It's all heavily interpretation based, and works off of extrapolating from existing information.

I didn't suggest they could. Nothing about Subjective Reality is supported here except an extremely vague link to stories. That's not enough to give them Subjective Reality, Phoenix. It simply isn't. Saying "but it's Dark Souls" doesn't help.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

First bit wasn't to you, that was at the above conversation. I figured that was obvious.

And as I said, I'm not really that set on giving it to them, but I felt the need to point out that, well, expecting things to be explicit in Souls isn't going to get you anywhere. Which is to say, things being vague is less of an argument in this case than it would otherwise be. Because pretty much everything is.

On top of that, a bunch of these things are in fact stated outright. Miracles being stories is stated, indisputably so, this is not vague in any form. The thing about stories being components to the casting is baseless, that's never really said or implied, the only argument for it is "fiction sometimes works this way", which is a rather obviously bad one. Miracles are stories, the miracles themselves are, not a part of casting them, but the miracle itself is a story. This is stated outright.

Telling a story and it becoming reality would in fact be Subjective Reality. We also know the result is directly influenced by changes in the story.

Point being, this isn't an unreasonable assumption to make with the evidence at hand. Whether or not it's given that definitively or not, or given a likely or a possibly, since those exist for situations like this, I don't care that much. But I don't believe it can reasonably be said that this has no basis. If the problem is it not being clear enough, we've got the possibly thing for that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I assumed you were speaking generally, is all.

I do not expect all things to be explicit, only explicit enough that it is within reason to assume the proposal to be true. In this instance, I feel this notion is being jumbled- had we no page for subjective reality, I strongly doubt this conclusion would be reached in any capacity. Most of our Dark Souls pages reflect things the general player base would accept- for example, it would be difficult for a player to say that we do not absorb souls and whatnot. Here, however, is a suggestion that has little to no basis in the game, but rather has a few buzzwords related to what we have available as powers on the wiki. This, I feel, is extremely important.

They never state, not even once, that in casting a miracle we are "telling a story". We are never told that the stories given to the Miracle teachers are "becoming reality". What we do know is that through some unknown way, she is able to learn miracles from these texts, and teaches them to us. We know miracles cannot function in this way in general, as there is actual proof against that, with the points about Gwyn made earlier. Ergo, we have actual evidence contrary to this suggestion, and (in my opinion) little to nothing in favor of it outside of our perception of things as VSBW people.

So no, I am staunchly against this being added. Barring some text that actually supports anything even vaguely related to subjective reality, I will remain staunchly against it.

 

[Antvasima]

What Bambu accepted is probably fine to apply, if he and Ovens have reached an agreement.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I believe we've agreed on most subjects barring Subjective Reality. Don't worry about this thread, though, Ant- it is under control.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. I will unfollow this thread then.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

So far I agree with what Phoenix and Ovens proposed. Although I'm somewhat neutral, but learning to agreeing, with the argument of Miracles having Subjective Reality.

Holy shit I'm somewhat scared rn

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I mean can you even count if as subjective reality if you're projecting someone elses subjective reality/story? I would suggest it's facilitated more by the whole 'times/places merging together' thing that facilitates invasions more then direct subjective reality.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok, it IS just flat out subjective reality if it is accepted as subjective reality. The only limitation is that it's specific to those individual stories. There isn't anything else. If it is accepted as that, there is nothing currently on the table that makes it anything else. "projecting someone elses subjective reality/story", they're not saying they're "projecting someone else's subjective reality", they're saying that the attack that comes from retelling the story itself would be subjective reality. It not being your own story also doesn't matter. It allows the user to induce reality to what is fiction, fantasy or imaginary, bringing them into existence, as well as turning facts, entities and events into unreality, vanishing them as if they were a mere dream or illusion."

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think Axx is misunderstanding Currant's point, though I think both are wrong. Currant seems to be implying he feels Miracles are taking the magic power or what have you from another time/reality, which would not make it subjective reality at all, no. I think this is even more unfounded than normal old Subjective Reality, but still.

 

[Antvasima]

Has what was accepted here been applied yet?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I believe so, for some time now, unless Ovens missed some pages.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@Sir_Ovens

Should we close this thread?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I have yet to adjust a few profiles, give me a little more time.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

How about now?