Cross universal scaling issue and matter....

[CrossverseCrisis]

Note: Might be a long read. Please bear with me on this.

So the other day me and Everlasting were talking about stuff related to our favorite game series (or at least one of them), Kingdom Hearts. While we were discussing about some of the characters scaling to each other, he mentioned to me about cross-universal scaling.

What's that in case someone asks? Well AFAIK from my understanding, it refers to scaling a canon character in a crossover along with other characters that are either under or over them in power and such.

Y'all might be asking "so what's the point here" or however you might say on. For one, i'm actually surprised this site hasn't made any thread relating to this. For two, this would cause some very inflated rankings and scalings.

I'll try to explain this in a couple examples.

1) Kingdom Hearts, Disney, and Final Fantasy.

2) Super Smash Bros. Series

3) Marvel Vs Capcom (Particularly MvC3 and i guess the Ultimate version of it, might as well throw that in)

And 4) J Stars Victory VS.

What do all of these have in common?

I'll use #1 as the starting base.

The main character of the series, Sora, has done quite a lot of battles and misc. feats throughout his adventures. One of them in particular was him taking on the Final Fantasy characters, especially the likes of Cloud and Sephiroth. Even though Sora has beaten them in KH 1 and 2, especially since he's beaten Spehiroth of all people in 1&2.....twice. So what's the point in this example?

My question is this: How come Sora hasn't been upgraded to 4-B due to beating Cloud whose tier is currently 4-B for being able to harm Sephiroth? I'm pretty sure that Everlasting can answer this better for me but i think in my own thought of it, this would most likely cause some inflation. As much as i like the thought of having the KHverse be 4-B, the problem lies due to A) The FF characters backstory in KH is different than if they were in their own worlds. B) Even if we disregard A, we have no idea as to how powerful these versions of the FF characters are at assuming we don't scale them to KH's power level. And C) None of the feats or calcs in KH are shown to be comparable to what FF's are at (to my knowledge, that is).

That and it would literally look odd to have just about everybody including Pete (yes, that guy) be 4-B if this was true. I mean this may have been "canon", but Sora beating Cloud and Sephiroth + the others are only canon to the KHverse series, not on both that and the FFverse.

Now lets use another. This time, it's J Star Victory VS. For a quick answer as to what this game is, this was a shonen jump game made to celebrate the magazine company's 45th anniversary by pitting various SJ verse's like Dragon Ball, Naruto, Medaka's Box, Bleach, Fist of the North Star, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Saint Seiya, and more.

This one is definitely a problem already like with the SSB and MvC gaes cause you have characters like Kenshiro and Jonathan Joestar fighting against the likes of Goku, Frieza, Yusuke, Pegasus Seiya and Naruto; all of whom can esstentially stomp them instantly.....well Kenshiro might last just a tad bit longer but even then, he dies.

All in all, i was thinking that a rule or a page should be made regarding this issue to not scale characters based on crossovers or non canon materials because if we were to have accepted it (let's just assume that we one day did this), then we would be looking at say:

-Solar System level Kingdom Hearts due to Sora being capable of fighting and even defeating the Final Fantasy characters (assumming that we are actually using mainstream Cloud's and the others current tiers here, okay? Just go along with me on this).

-Characters that appeared on the latest Marvel vs Capcom game like Ryu, Storm, Phonix Wright, Hawkeye, Frank West, and Albert Wesker being Planet level or even higher for beating Galactus (he's only shown to destroy the planet should you not be able to beat his cosmic servents or if you lose to him).

-Planet to even as high as Large Star level for those like Medaka, Kenshiro, Jonathan Joestar and Luffy for being able to contend with the likes of Goku, Frieza, and Pegasus Seiya (If we go by how we've rated said characters here, that is).

.....I have no idea what to say for Super Smash Bros. Not hating, just can't seem to say anything on them.

I've tried to get my point across here as best as i could so i hope y'all are getting from what i've said here.

Any thoughts? Comments? Note that i have talked to Lord Kavpeny himself on this and he actually thinks this a good idea....he'll come later to give his own words on this matter, however....

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Probably is because my english is not my natal lenguage but... THE HELL I'VE JUST READ?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I strongly disagree with this. If you are going to powerscale characters in a crossover, it should be based on what feats that character did in that franchise, not in another.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I strongly disagree with this. If you are going to powerscale characters in a crossover, it should be based on what feats that character did in that franchise, not in another.

Making a rule on this or what?

 

[DontTalk]

I have secretly (because I pretty much never dealt with crossovers) always believed that crossover events would be taken completly seperately, because of being uncanon to the main story. So characters should in my opinion only be ranked after the feats in the crossover.


For a canon crossover it is a bit harder. In some cases powers may still be tweaked or massive PIS involved to allow the crossover to work (that happened it some To aru crossover novels for example, even though this are likely also uncanon to the main story line (even though written by kamachi himself)).

In other words it can happen that powers are lowered for the crossover to work so in such cases I would still want to see that the characters weren't downgraded in power.

That much is my opinion on the topic, pretty much goes with what you wrote I think.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I have secretly (because I pretty much never dealt with crossovers) always believed that crossover events would be taken completly seperately, because of being uncanon to the main story. So characters should in my opinion only be ranked after the feats in the crossover.

For a canon crossover it is a bit harder. In some cases powers may still be tweaked or massive PIS involved to allow the crossover to work (that happened it some To aru crossover novels for example, even though this are likely also uncanon to the main story line (even though written by kamachi himself)).

In other words it can happen that powers are lowered for the crossover to work so in such cases I would still want to see that the characters weren't downgraded in power.

That much is my opinion on the topic, pretty much goes with what you wrote I think.

Yeah i forgot to mention that part about maybe some characters full power scaled down and/or others had their's get scaled higher to make the battles more even-ish. Meh, idk. *shrugs*

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Well, most crossover events are non canon which makes the feats irrelevant for canon profiles in the first place. As for canon crossover events (when explicitly stated by all the respective writers, or of separate stories by the same author), if the feats don't add up it might still be good to disregard them since they might be in different continuity (despite having canon status). If the feats are consistent with both verses then it might be taken into consideration for profiles (only if the event is said to be canon)

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Faisal Shourov: Well i still think we should probably consider making a rule of sorts about this, maybe even a page based on this. Cause who knows, there might be another person who wanna attempt to upgrade someone even though 99.9% of the time will very likely be non-canon.

 

[Alakabamm]

I think the basic rule that cross universe scaling is not accepted is best. I can't think of a single verse that is contained within itself that has actual canon cross-universe scaling.

 

[Kevenkiller]

Im not too sure about this scaling, look at Soul Calibur you have Darth Vader fighting Mitsurugi would that give Mitsurugi a massive Upgrade or Darth Vader a massive Downgrade ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zQTrM9IpPc

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I think the basic rule that cross universe scaling is not accepted is best. I can't think of a single verse that is contained within itself that has actual canon cross-universe scaling.

That's basically what i'm trying to say here. Like say that it's not accepted at all and whatnot, ya know?

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

I think we mustn´t scale from crossovers nor incanonical material.

But, it was a good read.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

i disgree with this for the reasons already stated

- non canon crossovers

- even if they are canon, then the powers are tweaked to make it interesting, keep in mind, the creators and 99 percentof the viewers dont care about the power on a vs level

 

[Thebluedash]

I was going to type something, but I don't really see a point anymore as I agree with pretty much everything TLT1 said.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

i disgree with this for the reasons already stated
- non canon crossovers

- even if they are canon, then the powers are tweaked to make it interesting, keep in mind, the creators and 99 percentof the viewers dont care about the power on a vs level

Yeah.


But CANON crossovers must be considered as well IF they are part of the main canon.

For example, what will we do if we seen God Form Ryuko vs The Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Laggan?


Ryuko has...not a single chance against hte STTGG, But we would have to consider it because it´s canon.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Crossover version of characters like that in Super Smash should be taken as their own. Not as part of the original due to the variant power levels.

For example, multiversal pizza.


Super Munchies Time

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

i disgree with this for the reasons already stated
- non canon crossovers

- even if they are canon, then the powers are tweaked to make it interesting, keep in mind, the creators and 99 percentof the viewers dont care about the power on a vs level

Yeah.


But CANON crossovers must be considered as well IF they are part of the main canon.

For example, what will we do if we seen God Form Ryuko vs The Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Laggan?


Ryuko has...not a single chance against hte STTGG, But we would have to consider it because it´s canon.

that wud only make sense if ryuko gains a powerup

but imagine a crossover where a building buster monster comes out of the water (top tier of a verse that goes up to building level) and goku has trouble fighting it

so, yes, canon can be considered, but only if they make sense

in the ryuko case, if she gets a powerup or something, then it can be considered

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Crossover version of characters like that in Super Smash should be taken as their own. Not as part of the original due to the variant power levels.

For example, multiversal pizza.

Yum. And i'm also not too big on cross universe scaling due to reasons above (Ryu defeating Galactus is laughable)

 

[Yamatohime]

Canon crossovers are probably just other probabilities. Look at Melty Blood timeline that is separate canon for Tsukihime. White Len especialy. The mere familiar could hold her ground vs Ciel.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Mikoto Misaka231 Please don't quote block of text, it's against Wiki rules

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Mikoto Misaka231 Please don't quote block of text, it's against Wiki rules

Fine.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Although the idea of Multi-Universal Immeasurable Olimar makes me hard metaphorically, Crossover shouldn't be taken in a character's main profiles at all, unless a character is original out of said crossover but even then...

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

Should there be a separate page for the Mortal Kombat Scorpion that showed up in Injustice: Gods Among Us? His ending in the arcade mode of that game has him defeat Trigon.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Idk if we should make a seperate Key/Page for every character who appeared in a crossover, except again, people original to said Crossovers, like Master Hand or people who pretty much has their only fighting appearence in said Crossover, like G&W, R.O.B. etc.

 

[Anonimo77]

In J-Stars Victory the characters can keep up with Korosensei, a character who travel around the world in supersonic speed multiple times, and Arale, who literally breaks the planet.

 

[DontTalk]

Idk if we should make a seperate Key/Page for every character who appeared in a crossover, except again, people original to said Crossovers, like Master Hand or people who pretty much has their only fighting appearence in said Crossover, like G&W, R.O.B. etc.

Even though even those shouldn't be scaled from the original versions of other characters involved, but only by what the versions in the crossover themself showed, in my opinion.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

In J-Stars Victory the characters can keep up with Korosensei, a character who travel around the world in supersonic speed multiple times, and Arale, who literally breaks the planet.

Your best example is koro?

A lot of characters are FTL to MFTL+ though

 

[Gemmysaur]

Wasn't Ksensei Mach20 though? That's not supersonic at all. Did he get slower in the crossover?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Wasn't Ksensei Mach20 though? That's not supersonic at all. Did he get slower in the crossover?

Look at 0:16 https://youtu.be/JOLw_oyP6yY

 

[Anonimo77]

What I mean is that those feats are in the game, so even if those are different versions of the characters and we used only the feats that are in the game, some characters, like the characters from One Piece, would still be stronger than the original version.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

What I mean is that those feats are in the game, so even if those are different versions of the characters and we used only the feats that are in the game, some characters, like the characters from One Piece, would still be stronger than the original version.

Are you sure

Apart of the damage to others characters, they're not really impresive


Is like "One Piece x Toriko x Dragon Ball Z"

Watching Luffy and Toriko damaging post-buu saga Goku is... agh.

 

[Anonimo77]

An example: there are character in the game who possess a durability below Planetary level, but in the game they can survive Arale's special, an attack that breaks the planet, they take a huge amount of damage, but it's possible to survive..

 

[AidenBrooks999]

An example: there are character in the game who possess a durability below Planetary level, but in the game they can survive Arale's special, an attack that breaks the planet, they take a huge amount of damage, but it's possible to survive..

Wait... are you supporting this scaling?

Or just to create individual profiles for all the characters JSV versions?

 

[Anonimo77]

Create individual profiles for all the characters JSV versions.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Create individual profiles for all the characters JSV versions.

Like... why?

 

[Anonimo77]

If you think that Luffy would be able to beat Super Saiyan Goku, ok, just ignore the existence of the game.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

If you think that Luffy would be able to beat Super Saiyan Goku, ok, just ignore the existence of the game.

...

Ok, go

Create dozens of profiles with the same stadistics

(Just like League of Legends)

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Alright, alright. Okay everyone look: How about i just take out the exceptions so we're just going with saying "no, we don't scale characters from crossovers and whatnot" potential rule? Is that better cause from the looks of it, the majority here seems to think that the exceptions are a bad idea.

Anyways as i said in the OP, i've presented this possible idea with our site's head bureaucrat Lord Kavpeny and he said that a rule regarding this matter would be a good idea. He'll know what to say here once he comes back online, okay?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DontTalk and Faisal. We definitely cannot use crossovers between different franchises for scaling.

If they, as usual, are non-canon, they obviously do not count, and even if they supposedly are claimed to be canon, the characters will almost always have their respective power levels adjusted to each other.

In addition, I am not a fan of cluttering this wiki with too many alternative non-canon profiles of characters, as they tend to dillute the originals. We have probably allowed too many of those already.

As for a rules page, I do not mind as such, but am probably too unfocused and distracted nowadays to write it myself.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I agree with DontTalk and Faisal. We definitely cannot use crossovers between different franchises for scaling.
If they, as usual, are non-canon, they obviously do not count, and even if they supposedly are claimed to be canon, the characters will almost always have their respective power levels adjusted to each other.

In addition, I am not a fan of cluttering this wiki with too many alternative non-canon profiles of characters, as they tend to dillute the originals. We have probably allowed too many of those already.

• Sigh* Just like with what i've said earlier, i was suggesting that we make a rule or a page regarding this matter.

As for the last part, let's just not do that then.