Concepts of Existence.

[Lina_Shields]

Part 1: Definition of Omnipresence:

The definition of omnipresence states that "it is the property of being present everywhere, and omnipresence is roughly described as the ability to be present in every place at any, and/or every, time referring to an unbounded or universal presence." This basically means that you can be any place, at any time, at any dimension.

But there is no statement that say that you can exist nowhere. Even if a character has no limit to speed or dimensions, this still does not disregard the fact that they have to exist (they can only exist up to everywhere). This is because as soon as they existed nowhere, they would cease to exist completely. For example, even if he/she has omnipresent speed, he/she are still able to move and interact with the character in some sort of way. It may interact them from every angle, direction, and time, but technically he or she would have to...

EXIST.

Two points: Let's say that Existence = 1, and NonExistence = 0. He can only be one at the time, which is either 1, or 0.

This means that he can only be 1, or 0, as he is not allowed to pick both at the same time. If he becomes 1 and 0 at the same time he would basically cease to be either 1 or 0 altogether, thus.....

Part 2: Definition of Irrelevance:

The definition of irrelevance only applies to characters beyond the concepts of dimensions themselves, including time. The only limit to this would be that if that character was to not exist, would the character still be there at all?

Therefore, I believe the best definition of irrelevance would be that you have went beyond existence and non-existence. This completely violates the rule of common sense (an example would be saying 1 = 0), but if a character is able to exist AND not exist at the same time, then how is it possible?

Azathoth has also stated that when he wakes up he will erase all of existence. This would even include the term omnipresence as well, as every concept would pretty much cease to exist.

Part 3: Conclusion

The term "Irrelevant" deserves a lot more respect than what is present on the speed category at the moment. A description of Tier 0 states that...

"Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."

You are wondering at this point how the hell this can even be pictured, however, it would be irrelevant at this point. In my opinion, a character that exists that is able to not exist at the same time should have their speed changed to omnipresent, while speed should be irrelevant for characters that meet the requirement to exist and not exist at the same time. Thus, I would like to propose that all 1-A and High 1-A characters should have their speed changed to omnipresent. Tier 0 characters should have their speed set to irrelevant. This would include Yog-Sothoth and Demonbane as well, as Yog-Sothoth governs all of existence, but is bound to existence himself via Azathoth.

So my biggest question about this topic is: Why is "omnipresent" rated at a higher level than "irrelevant" when it comes to speed?

TL;DR: Yog-Sothoth governs all of existence but is bound to Azathoth, therefore he must be only at one point, which is to exist. If Azathoth wakes up, Yog-Sothoth ceases to exist (unless Azathoth ceases to exist as well).

Most of this stuff basically sounds like common sense repeated over and over, but I looked into this a bit deeper and truly believe that this may be the correct way to ask this question.

 

[DontTalk]

First read Note 2 on the speed page. Omnipresence is the highest speed stat on a fixed level of existence. Immeasurable can already be higher then omnipresent, if immeasureable is on a higher plane of existence then omnipresence.

And then being beyond existence and non existence wouldn't grant omnipresence per default.

If you want so one could say that both of them are places, not seperated by physical position maybe, but still distingushable, with a clear border between them. 1-A beings can exist on a much higher plane, without occupying every place on the lower planes.

Neither are 1-A beings usually omnipresent in relation to the highest plane they can reach and there can be planes higher then them, so the notion of 1-A = non existence is actually not quite true either, as that in itself is a question of how thinsg are layered.

 

[Alexcar3000]

Ok, this is not speed, but I want to ask something: How does Omniscience work? for example: character A is omniscient in his own universe/multiverse/whatever but he goes to meet character B who is not from character A's universe/multiverse/whatever, (like a Marvel character going to the DC Multiverse), does character A's omniscience no longer apply, as he wouldn't know anything about character B nor where he is now?

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Knowing everything that's happening currently within the universe is cosmic awareness last I checked

 

[Antvasima]

I placed "Omnipresent" in a special "Variable Tier" section to avoid future confusion, as it depends on the level of existence.

However, if somebody has a better suggestion for a name than "Variable Tier", I am perfectly willing to change this.

Perhaps "Relative Tier" instead?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yog both already exists and doesn't exist. He is all that is and isn't. It's not that he really "ceases to exist" if Azathoth wakes up. It's just that he becomes one with Azzy again, as do all things. Things far below Yog are already beyond the duality of existence and non-existence. It's impossible to logically explain because they're beyond logic. That's why "irrelevant" exists.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Yog both already exists and doesn't exist. He is all that is and isn't. It's not that he really "ceases to exist" if Azathoth wakes up. It's just that he becomes one with Azzy again, as do all things. Things far below Yog are already beyond the duality of existence and non-existence. It's impossible to logically explain because they're beyond logic. That's why "irrelevant" exists.

Then Yog-sothoth should have irrelevant speed instead, since all the other gods below are completely above everything including logic. In this case, the only god that would be truly omnipresent would be Azathoth, as all the other gods in existence are only a part of him.

With all that said, Yogs does cover all of existence/nonexistence (I will double check this; he is still a part of Azathoth), so omnipresent can fit as well (this goes for mist/darkness also). This is somewhat dubious however as Yogs will just become a part of Azathoth again when he wakes up.

Regarding note 2: Nowhere does it say omnipresence ignores completely everything, as it only specifically states that it does not apply to charcters of higher dimension than the one above it. This means that omnipresence can still be restricted by the number of dimensions that exist (which goes up to infinity), unlike irrelevant where it completely breaks all logic.

Also, please don't mention immesurable speed in this thread. It's not relevant to the discussion.

@Ant: I still think that irrelevant is a very, very special speed tier, and should be reserved for the very top characters of the tier list, as they would not be bound by any sort of factors at all.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Then Yog-sothoth should have irrelevant speed instead, since all the other gods below are completely above everything including logic. In this case, the only god that would be truly omnipresent would be Azathoth, as all the other gods in existence are only a part of him.

With all that said, Yogs does cover all of existence/nonexistence (I will double check this; he is still a part of Azathoth), so omnipresent can fit as well (this goes for mist/darkness also). This is somewhat dubious however as Yogs will just become a part of Azathoth again when he wakes up.

Regarding note 2: Nowhere does it say omnipresence ignores completely everything, as it only specifically states that it does not apply to charcters of higher dimension than the one above it. This means that omnipresence can still be restricted by the number of dimensions that exist (which goes up to infinity), unlike irrelevant where it completely breaks all logic.

Also, please don't mention immesurable speed in this thread. It's not relevant to the discussion.

Yog is listed as omnipresent because in Azathoth's dream, he pretty much is. He's everyone and everything. Azathoth is truly omnipresent, as omnipresence has varying levels.

I didn't say omnipresence ignores everything. I said the characters this topic is about are beyond our traditional logic and understanding.

Where did I mention immeasurable speed?

 

[Lina_Shields]

Ah, sorry about the immesurable speed. That was for DarkLK.

Anyways, reading the point on Yog-sothoth it seems that it could be that he covers all of Azathoth's existence. Note taken on varying levels of omnipresence (this would depend on the number of dimensions he/she has, right?). I was just curious because in the ther list it is stated that Tier 0 characters were supposed to be completely above everything, and that would mean the concept of speed as well.

Perhaps one of you guys can add that omnipresence is not limited to dimensions in the notes section? It would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Antvasima]

So, given that omnipresence is relative to the degree of existence of the character (For example, we are essentially omnipresent in relation to the bacteria living inside of our bodies), and it generally is below plenty of characters with immeasurable speed, does anybody have any suggestions regarding what we should do about it?

Was it appropriate of me to place it in a separate column, rather than the regular hierarchical listing, and if so, what should we call the column?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Was it appropriate of me to place it in a separate column, rather than the regular hierarchical listing, and if so, what should we call the column?

Indeed. It's a very variable speed, which can be either incredibly slow or incredibly fast depending on the setting. We probably just need to clarify how it works.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Doesn't it seem weird that it's the only variable tier on our current scale page....gish?

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth Well, the speed page does have a footnote about it.

@CrossverseCrisis I don't really know what else to do about it, but I have informed Lord Kavpeny.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Aye. @Antvasima

 

[Lina_Shields]

Quick question. With regards to omnipresence being scaled to the upper outer gods including Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth, shouldn't Elder God Demonbane have the same speed rating as Yog-Sothoth? Basically, Elder God Demonbane should have the same speed rating as Yogs due to being on the same level or above him; meaning he would also cover all of existence and non-existence as well.

Also, if Elder God's speed rating is irrelevant instead of omnipresent, wouldn't Yogs blitz since he is on a higher level of speed?

So, in definition, Elder God Demonbane should have omnipresent speed due to him existing on the same level (or above) as Yog-Sothoth and actually sealed him away.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, classifiying EGD as Irrelevant speed is actually more impressive than most forms of omnipresence, but I do not think that he is omnipresent in all of reality like Yog-Sothoth.