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CM for Zhuo Fan Third time lol

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ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
How can the foundation of existence be discarded? That doesn't make any sense. I feel that it's being metaphorical, because it suggests that the world simply no longer cares about the Dao. Then it says Heaven's Will is Dao, and any power is nothing before it, but in that case, how was the Dao discarded? Then it's stated both demonic and righteous cultivators must return to the Dao, which makes even less sense, because it says the demonic path discarded the Dao. There are too many contradictions here.
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I feel like you've misunderstood everything. First of all, there is no question of abandoning the foundation of existence. It is only said that the Dao is the foundation, but the world is independent not of the Dao but of humans and what makes up this world. the beings of the world are dependent on it, but the world is independent of them. Furthermore, the Dao has not been “abandoned” in the literal sense of the word. Humans came from primordial chaos and were one with the Dao, but little by little they “forgot” this truth, which caused them to stray from the Dao, but they did not actually abandon it. Next, the term “returning to the Dao” is related to what I just said. humans have “forgotten” their true nature, the truth that they are one with the Dao, and therefore their goal is to return to it in order to rediscover their true nature. There is no real abandonment in all this, so there is no contradiction.
 
Okay, so Dao is the foundation of everything in existence. People stopped caring about the Dao because of the Demonic Path. Heaven's Will is the Dao, and it applies laws.

Hmm, alright, I can see Conceptual Manipulation based on this, though I would like to see a scan of someone manipulating the Daoa and its effects if that happens at any point.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Okay, so Dao is the foundation of everything in existence. People stopped caring about the Dao because of the Demonic Path. Heaven's Will is the Dao, and it applies laws.

Hmm, alright, I can see Conceptual Manipulation based on this, though I would like to see a scan of someone manipulating the Daoa and its effects if that happens at any point.
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“Humanity Dao Lord?”

“Yes, the six paths coexist between this heaven and earth, with all creation belonging to these six paths of reincarnation. The ones who control these paths are the Six Paths Dao Lords, one for humanity, heaven, asura, clarity, demon, animal, hell, and evil. Zhuo Fan took the Humanity Dao Lord position, leaving five more. If we can grasp just one, we can fight them. Humph…”

Grinning, Heavenly Sword God’s eyes were filled with malice and coldness, a bubbling killing intent on the brink of erupting.

Ye Tianmiu said with a flat look. “Which one are you after?”
Click to expand...

“As the Taoist master of humanity, my power comes from the hearts of people. I cannot step in a world without sentient hearts.”
Click to expand...
Zhuo Fan doesn’t just control people he controls the Path of Humanity, which itself is a fundamental pillar of existence. His power is directly tied to the metaphysical concept of human nature.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Okay, so Dao is the foundation of everything in existence. People stopped caring about the Dao because of the Demonic Path. Heaven's Will is the Dao, and it applies laws.

Hmm, alright, I can see Conceptual Manipulation based on this, though I would like to see a scan of someone manipulating the Daoa and its effects if that happens at any point.
Click to expand...
No, the demonic path has nothing to do with humans forgetting their true nature. The demonic path is one of the ten heavenly paths and focuses on the human heart, mastering one's inner demons, etc. And the ruler of the nine serenities bet on this to confront the path of void of the Celestial Sovereign, because the very principle of the demonic path is opposed to that of the path of void. But if all humans had forgotten their true nature because of the demonic path, they would all be on that path, which is not the case, because there is a distinction between the virtuous and the demonic.

Furthermore, as far as I can remember, no one can manipulate the Celestial Will, but one can grant the CM because Zhuo Fan's “true self,” for example, is the Dao, which was accepted in the thread for AE type 1, but even the character Zhuo Fan cannot go against the Celestial Will, even if his “true self” is one with the Celestial Will.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
I can see Possibly CM Type 2.
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Afterwards, knowing that reality is part of existence and that concepts are fragments that each govern an aspect of reality, the fact that the Dao is the foundation of all existence undeniably also implies reality and therefore everything that composes it, which means that the “object” linked to the Dao is existence, which is linked to reality.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
I can see Possibly CM Type 2.
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If it's 2, you have to know all the aspects that are involved, because I doubt that the concept of existence exists, since in the existence of the verse Magic Emperor there is life, death, reincarnation, space, time, force, love, creation, destruction, and so on.
 
Well, from what was shown, the Dao is the foundation of all things IN existence, not existence itself. That can make the Dao possibly Type 2.
 
But everything was created by primordial chaos, which is also the Dao, including the celestial paths, the world and its components, reality, etc. If we take Dao type 2, it encompasses reality, life, death, reincarnation, and everything I mentioned above.
 
Le_démon_Araii said:
But everything was created by primordial chaos, which is also the Dao, including the celestial paths, the world and its components, reality, etc. If we take Dao type 2, it encompasses reality, life, death, reincarnation, and everything I mentioned above.
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That's fine.
 
Would someone mind summarizing the debate here so far?
 
FinePoint said:
Would someone mind summarizing the debate here so far?
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To summarize, we have proven through several passages that the Dao is indeed the foundation of everything in existence, which includes creation, destruction, time, space, love, reality, life, death, reincarnation, strength, etc. Even though the Dao is the source of the world, the world is not independent of the Dao. The Dao, also known as Divine Will, is a power superior to laws, the highest of powers that enforces laws. And then I don't know if I've forgotten anything else.
 
Le_démon_Araii said:
To summarize, we have proven through several passages that the Dao is indeed the foundation of everything in existence, which includes creation, destruction, time, space, love, reality, life, death, reincarnation, strength, etc. Even though the Dao is the source of the world, the world is not independent of the Dao. The Dao, also known as Divine Will, is a power superior to laws, the highest of powers that enforces laws. And then I don't know if I've forgotten anything else.
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I meant a summary of both sides, unless that is the unanimous conclusion.
 
Honestly, I don't see where the CM is coming from, since each metaphysical aspect is foundational in its own way. Outside vague mentions of concepts, most verses get their CM from "gon take a while for Ultima to fix the standards" 😭😭. Concepts in VSBW are foundational because they're non-physical "whatness," the essential quality that makes things what they are, which has not been proven here.
 
Le_démon_Araii said:
I've written my summary, now we have to wait for Spaceman's summary so you can hear both sides' opinions.
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Hey friend, I don't understand. Why is Spaceman obligated to summarize debates he is not involved in
You are the ones who created CRT so shouldn't you be the ones summarizing it?
Can I see this as an unreasonable delegation of responsibility
 
FinePoint said:
Would someone mind summarizing the debate here so far?
Click to expand...
From what I can tell, the Dao has been established as the foundation of all things in existence, but not existence itself, which is why I agreed with Type 2 rather than Type 1. It functions as the source of laws, and the Dao of specific aspects, such as the Dao of humanity, draws upon the power of the human heart and cannot manifest in locations where such hearts are absent. This is consistent with Type 2 Concepts, which cease to exist if the aspects of reality they govern are not present.
 
Absolutely_111~ said:
Hey friend, I don't understand. Why is Spaceman obligated to summarize debates he is not involved in
You are the ones who created CRT so shouldn't you be the ones summarizing it?
Can I see this as an unreasonable delegation of responsibility
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It's just for objectivity. If he summarized my points, there's a chance there may be a disconnect.
 
Absolutely_111~ said:
Hey friend, I don't understand. Why is Spaceman obligated to summarize debates he is not involved in
You are the ones who created CRT so shouldn't you be the ones summarizing it?
Can I see this as an unreasonable delegation of responsibility
Click to expand...
If you had read further up, you would have seen that I already gave my summary. I simply wanted Spaceman to also summarize what he understood so that we could have opinions from both sides, those who started the thread and those outside of it. I'm not delegating anything, I just want him to see several opinions and not just one that would be unanimous, to use Finepoint's words.
 
Le_démon_Araii said:
If you had read further up, you would have seen that I already gave my summary. I simply wanted Spaceman to also summarize what he understood so that we could have opinions from both sides, those who started the thread and those outside of it. I'm not delegating anything, I just want him to see several opinions and not just one that would be unanimous, to use Finepoint's words.
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Oh yes, my mistake. It's hard to believe, but it seems like I just woke up and I'm not quite alert, so my words might come off a bit tense. I truly apologize if I misunderstood your point about the meaning of summarizing.
I really thought that the meaning was that you asked Spaceman to summarize the debates from the past until now, even though he is not obligated to do so.
 
Absolutely_111~ said:
What I mean is, I really have no opinions about you at all. What I want to say is that finepoint has asked them to summarize the debates up to now, and they asked you to do that.
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I really don't care who does it, it's not a big deal, so long as both sides are included.
In fact, it's even better if both sides summarize their own.
Grabbing_dragon said:
Honestly, I don't see where the CM is coming from, since each metaphysical aspect is foundational in its own way. Outside vague mentions of concepts, most verses get their CM from "gon take a while for Ultima to fix the standards" 😭😭. Concepts in VSBW are foundational because they're non-physical "whatness," the essential quality that makes things what they are, which has not been proven here.
Click to expand...
Well it would be very strange if fiction went out of its way to describe a concept in the exact same terms we do, so I'm willing to look past some level of it not being 'proven' in favor of it fundamentally acting like it in practice.

From that perspective, this does sound very much like a Type 2 concept to me.
 
Absolutely_111~ said:
Oh yes, my mistake. It's hard to believe, but it seems like I just woke up and I'm not quite alert, so my words might come off a bit tense. I truly apologize if I misunderstood your point about the meaning of summarizing.
I really thought that the meaning was that you asked Spaceman to summarize the debates from the past until now, even though he is not obligated to do so.
Click to expand...
No problem, and sorry if my words seem “crude,” but since I'm French, our expressions or the words I use may seem tense when DeepL translates them.
 
FinePoint said:
I really don't care who does it, it's not a big deal, so long as both sides are included.
In fact, it's even better if both sides summarize their own.

Well it would be very strange if fiction went out of its way to describe a concept in the exact same terms we do, so I'm willing to look past some level of it not being 'proven' in favor of it fundamentally acting like it in practice.

From that perspective, this does sound very much like a Type 2 concept to me.
Click to expand...
For type 2, yes, the best example would be the path of humanity, which draws its power from the hearts of humans, and the passage where it is impossible to access because the human heart does not exist there. There is also the Dao, which is presented as the supreme power that enforces the laws, and that all power is nothing before the Dao. Not once has it been described as a law, but rather as a much higher power, which eliminates the possibility that it is a manipulated law.
 
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