Chrono: Lavos keys

[The_real_cal_howard]

For some reason, I had a dream to make this. Considering how Chrono Cross is a thing, and for some reason, we only have one profile on the game, we should add Lavos' two other keys to his profile. The Dream Devourer and the Time Devourer. Iirc, the time devourer is 2-A via feats, but I have no idea what tier Dream Devourer would be. My Dream told me Low 2-C, and that would upgrade the post game cast, but there is no basis to that until I check more.

Also, I think Crono and Magus should have acausality. At the very least Magus. The cast are aware of the changes they've made in time and for the most part are unaffected by them. I'd say Marle, but an ending with Frog shows that she's...not.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It seems like the Dream Devourer overloaded the timeline leading to the Day of Lavos in order to fight the party. There's also a part about reestablishing the shades in the dimensional vortex as realities.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm....

 

[Ryukama]

Could you please bring a scan or something about Lavos having a 2-A feat?

Also does the series run on multiverse or multiple timelines (which the fact there's 2-A feats seems to imply) or not? Because if so then I'm not sure if any characters changing time would have acausality.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The Time Devourer is capable of devouring all of spacetime, which has been proven infinite.

http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Time_Devourer

Serge (Chrono Cross)

 

[Ryukama]

Alright then.

How about the acausality though?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's due to the fact that the cast knows that the Black Omen wasn't always there, even though in that version of the timeline, it existed since 12K BC

 

[SomebodyData]

I see, well then I agree with the upgrade.

 

[Ryukama]

I see and agree as well.

 

[Thebluedash]

I agree with the upgrade :3

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

This seems reasonable to me.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I've added acausality to Magus and Crono. I think I need more input for the tier 2 stats though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

... Is this legit?

I feel I should ask for William Proto's opinion. He's the most knowledgeble person on the Chronoverse as far as I'm concerned.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

2-A, I'm pretty sure. I'm questionable on Dream Devourer though.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If it does turn out to be Low 2-C, then the partys' key should be like this:

During game | Post Game

I would've had it as " Before absorbing shade | After absorbing shade" but that would imply that only applies to Crono, Marle, and Lucca, and pushing Magus, Frog, Robo, and Ayla to the side.

 

[EternalLurker]

The cast are aware of the changes they've made in time and for the most part are unaffected by them. I'd say Marle, but an ending with Frog shows that she's...not.
This isn't a canon ending, since it's only accessible in a New Game +. The whole player-character cast should be acausal due to multiple instances of changing the past and remembering how things were before they did so. (the Black Omen's presence, Porre's mayor and his descendants being kind, etc)
EDIT: Although, I should note, they only seem to become immune to temporal paradox "after" they first arrive at the End of Time, which lies outside of the flow of time entirely. Perhaps that is actually the cause of their immunity. Before that point, Marle is in fact affected by time paradoxes, as her presence in 600 A.D. leads to the death of her own ancestor and causes her to cease to exist.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That seems incredibly likely. Thank you.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump

 

[HeroicDefender97]

Proto would be the best person to ask about this--- But right now he's dealing with some real life stuff and doesn't want to be bothered at the moment...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I see. So it seems for the moment we have to handle this. Your opinion, HD?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Proto's been quite busy, but he does seem like the best person to ask.

Now anyway, as for my thoughts. I agree with Time Devourer's stats given the calc. As for Time Devourer, Universe+ seems like a legit rank, but I'd like to hear what Proto thinks of course. And as for the tags for Crono's party, I think it would only be fair if was used them for the whole party if we decide to scale them. But If I remember correctly, the party looses to the Time devourer, but they do survive, so their durability scales at least. I'm unsure about attack potency though.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Are people okay with me making the changes?

 

[Promestein]

Seems fine to me.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. I'll make the changes then. If anyone disagrees, then please come to my wall.

 

[Cropfist]

I'm unsure about scaling, it seems outlierish for the party to get infinitely stronger out of nowhere.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, prevailing against universal threats could, of course, simply be Plot-Induced Stupidity and Game Mechanics.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I want to see Proto's opinion on this, he's probably the biggest Chrono Fan in the Vs.Community. As soon as I can contact him, I'll let you people know.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

For starters, the cast didn't prevail. They just managed to hold their own. Note how none of the cast has "beat the dream Devourer" as reasoning. They managed to damage it, survive attacks from it, and escape. Other reasons are there too, of course, considering how Crono, Marle, and Lucca had to absorb their shades in order to have the event Trigger (no pun intended), and this is the last event that the cast canonically does (except for Lucca and maybe Magus) and before everything gains another major boost, so there is nothing proving against the boost.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I too want Proto's input, @Matt.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. Input from Proto/CGG is appreciated of course.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Bumping this, since I finally got contact with Proto again.

He told me that Multiversal+ Time Devourer is indeed legit, and showed me a lot of feats that support it, and Universal+ Dream Devourer.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Matt

So both tags are good?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mhm.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Here is his original post:

"There are as many universes in the CT verse as there are possibilities according to the Prophet/Magus. That is to say, infinite: i.imgur.com/ybqYsMK.png

This includes an endless expanse, Time's Eclipse: i.imgur.com/ns29qqF.png

Dream Devourer, which is merely the Time Devourer's weaker prototype, can absorb intangible concepts such as thoughts, dreams, and memories: i.imgur.com/Kizjo95.png

Schala's goal is to end all of existence: i.imgur.com/Rnmi5IN.png i.imgur.com/77p6Q55.png

Robo mentions the Dream Devourer's power being incalculable: i.imgur.com/vBKfGVI.png

Dream Devourer can manipulate laws such as gravity: i.imgur.com/yntVtZ6.png

Dream Devourer has multi-dimensional (read: universal) range: i.imgur.com/5mNvqFq.png

It can reality warp space and time to open holes: i.imgur.com/zqDTVmf.png i.imgur.com/FeK5tmU.png

Lavos/Dream Devourer consumes consciousness: i.imgur.com/jaQay0B.png

Feats for the Chrono Trigger/Time Egg + Frozen Flame, which the Chrono Cross ***** on (This of course applies to Radical Dreamers Serge, aka the cool Serge)

The Chrono Trigger is a condensed universe. When combined with the Frozen Flame, it is capable of bending space and time on a universal scale; the wielder can even reshape all of history: i.imgur.com/tjeikRF.png

Tears in reality are created by it: i.imgur.com/ZjkKAoF.png

With the Chrono Trigger, Serge can exist beyond time and become omnipresent. The size of the Chrono Trigger's condensed universe is also shown: i.imgur.com/MVNoX8e.png

As Serge exists beyond the concept of time itself, he is capable of seeing infinite alternate universes, once again backing up that Chrono Trigger verse is an infinite universe with higher planes: i.imgur.com/bHSr5fZ.png i.imgur.com/yJpdafN.png

Lynx/Dark Serge can teleport enemies to an alternate universe and proceed to bust it at quadrillions of times the speed of light. The description even says "All things become eternal nothingness" youtu.be/RJh1cgCjjok?t=234 www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtgbB…

Orlha's backstory sheds yet more light on Chrono Cross' infinite multiverse. For one? Tia is an alternate reality version of Orlha, who crossed over to the other side. The scene contains very interesting dialogue. For example? "...Just like our dreams, the possibilities are infinite." "There is an infinite number of worlds. The world we live in now is just one of the many..." youtu.be/RA7pT3DYm7Q?t=414

I can't find the clip on Youtube, but if you bring Glenn to the SS Invincible he says "Yes, the world has infinite possibilities" or something along those lines

According to Crono, Marle, and Lucca, the Chrono Trigger/Time Egg allows Serge and co to exist beyond time itself. All of existence is destroyed according to Belthasar. The Pendant also allows for time manipulation. The Chrono Cross > the Pendant and the Chrono Trigger/Time Egg although Serge has both in his possession. Relevant dialogue: "Schala and Lavos became unified into one even more powerful entity that would evolve int the Devourer of Time. Schala's mind became set on destroying all of existence." "The pendant would rewind time a little, sending her daughter-clone into a safer point in the immediate past." "At the darkness beyond time, the weakened Schala..." "Your actions will determine whether in the future all time is devoured by Lavos, sending the world into everlasting death. Belthasar foresaw this was going to happen...." www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvtU6m…

Speaking of Belthasar? The meeting with him also contains some interesting gems: "Lavos created a dimensional vortex that threw me far into the future!" "Now, go to the place where time became divided and weave the threads of time together again... Chrono Trigger!" "In the far-off future, when the fusion becomes complete, IT will awaken..." "Then, the Devourer of Time will begin to consume all space-time continuum... Despair and hatred... To return all things to nothingness... That is what IT desires." "That Time Egg will enable you to travel beyond space-time..." www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwCKCd… youtu.be/IJNib9p3jls?t=974

Serge and co are able to trade blows with and even outright kill the Time Devourer in a bad ending, in which it then escapes through what seems to be a galaxy: youtu.be/td4e3SrpmuE?t=364

Using the Chrono Cross, Serge is able to merge the infinite multiverse together and is > the Time Devourer. According to Schala, some universes also evolve into higher dimensions. Relevant dialogue showing that they have all been merged in addition to the obviousness of the ending sequence: "Time, which has been divided, will be unified again now." youtu.be/D2AVskd5r3A?t=244

In the end, it has all been merged into a higher dimensional plane; "our" world Also I found confirmation that CT's bad ending is canon in some timelines "On some time lines, Lavos appeared on the surface of the planet in the year 1999 and brought the world to ruins." www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_BUa…

As well as the reptite ending being canon: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKU_RG… youtu.be/UwCKCdV4Btw?t=74 And the Chrono Cross' space-time hax is also backed up when Crono says "It has the power to cross space and time and unify people's thoughts and feelings..." "

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Proto/ClassicGameGuys seems to make sense.