Chara's attack power.

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The game files are structured in such a way that it has notes adressed to players poking through them, some notes even supposedly written by charecters within the game itself. It's clear that the game and the game files are interconnected in a meta way, so it would have made sense for them to have been deleted upon Chara's attack if they destroyed the game.

There is a very, very clear difference between game files having hidden goodies and expecting a game to wipe itself in its entirety from your computer.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honestly, Undertale is harder to explain than Kingdom Hearts and Metal Gear combined.

 

[Parks_Brit]

There is a very, very clear difference between game files having hidden goodies and expecting a game to wipe itself in its entirety from your computer.

Arguably that is not the case. The meta has a consistancy to break the fourth wall and even to adress the player, and the game files adressing the games in notes. Toby clearly has put a lot of thought into the game and how it is to be structured. If Chara really destroyed the game in canon, the files would have been destroyed to.

 

[SomebodyData]

Honestly, Undertale is harder to explain than Kingdom Hearts and Metal Gear combined.

^This. I don't blame people for their constant questioning also because during my first run of the game I missed some key factors, even now I have questions but I trust the admins to do their jobs correctly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Problem is, destroying the game files would actually be illegal as it would be theft. So Chara's thing is the next best thing.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Honestly, Undertale is harder to explain than Kingdom Hearts and Metal Gear combined.

As a serious Kingdom Hearts fan I can say that is not correct, not even close.

 

[Parks_Brit]

Problem is, destroying the game files would actually be illegal as it would be theft. So Chara's thing is the next best thing.

Where did you learn this?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Arguably that is not the case. The meta has a consistancy to break the fourth wall and even to adress the player, and the game files adressing the games in notes. Toby clearly has put a lot of thought into the game and how it is to be structured. If Chara really destroyed the game in canon, the files would have been destroyed to.

Once more

You can argue the game should have or could have done this

Though saying it WOULD have done so had Chara actually destroyed the game should not be used as an argument simply because Toby put a lot of effort into the meta.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

^This. I don't blame people for their constant questioning also because during my first run of the game I missed some key factors, even now I have questions but I trust the admins to do their jobs correctly.

Same. I asked a few myself. With three different endings, fourth wall breaking, multiversal characters, and anything related to Gaster, I couldn't understand anything past the main plot, and that was after being on this site and the wiki

 

[Parks_Brit]

Arguably that is not the case. The meta has a consistancy to break the fourth wall and even to adress the player, and the game files adressing the games in notes. Toby clearly has put a lot of thought into the game and how it is to be structured. If Chara really destroyed the game in canon, the files would have been destroyed to.

Once more
You can argue the game should have or could have done this

Though saying it WOULD have done so had Chara actually destroyed the game should not be used as an argument simply because Toby put a lot of effort into the meta.

Once more.

I am saying that it is a perfectly valid argument. It makes sense from a desin standpoint of the game for the game files presence after the attack to be a indication of Chara lying.

If you wish to argue we can't know of Toby's intention, then that's fair, but because of that Chara's attack power is still thrusted up into the air until the 'words of god' conclude the argument.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

As a serious Kingdom Hearts fan I can say that is not correct, not even close.

I have two friends who played the game religiously. They each albeit individually have tried to teach me the game's lore for about eight years. I still don't know who Xemnas is. Now that I think about it, I might have exaggerated a teeeny bit, but UT is at least equal to KH in my eyes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Once more.

I am saying that it is a perfectly valid argument. It makes sense from a desin standpoint of the game for the game files presence after the attack to be a indication of Chara lying.

If you wish to argue we can't know of Toby's intention, then that's fair, but because of that Chara's attack power is still thrusted up into the air until the 'words of god' conclude the argument.

No, it doesn't. You are arguing that it makes sense for the game to ACTUALLY ERASE ITSELF FROM YOUR COMPUTER as opposed to using extra files and the actual story/character dialogue to achieve the same effect, which is nonsensical. From a design standpoint, the game actually destroying itself instead of having someone flat out state what happened is not good game design.

 

[KuuIchigo]

IMO if a game actually deleted itself from my computer, I would be pissed. I would have spent hours on it just for it to delete itself is a bad game design.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Where did you learn this?

It's the law, or at least in America. Because of the fact that destroying the files of a game that someone bought would account to ripping them off, and just pocketing their ten

 

[Verivici]

But what if he emails back saying Chara's not even universal akin to Brevort's Marvel speeds, despite the fact that all evidence points to multiversity? Then things will get even more complicated lol.
For the record, that wasn't a suggestion or subliminal messaging at all.

Actual feats are put in higher standing than later author statement (i.e. Flash and the nuke, FTL Homestuck, etc).

Considering that Undertale is an extremely hard to interpret game where there are pretty much 0 certainties, and the fact that the multiversal feat is also based on interpretation, I think author statement would mean a lot more in this case.

Believe it or not I think we should ask him on Twitter something like "How many universes are there in the UT cosmology?". Would finally shut up all the annoying threads about the subject. Worst thing that happens he gives us some disaffected "dunno" response like Kamiya.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

One thing though. Doesn't Sans say that Chara is going to wipe out the universes over time?

 

[Verivici]

Well, some people believe that statement refers to SAVE and LOAD, which they don't interpret as timeline creation due to the fact Sans wouldn't be facing a horrific existensial crisis if completely seperate alternate versions of himself were being made instead of him being reset. Also, others believe that Chara is weaker than Omega Flowey/Asriel. I myself do not totally agree with the ratings of the higher tiers (I think that the various other interpretations of their stats could at least be mentioned), but I understand that trying to change them is nothing more than an exersise in futility since there have supposedly been multiple threads about the topic. Whatever.

 

[Aparajita]

I wanted to bring up the fact that the Undertale "Timelines" are all connected. Toriel remembers what cookies you choose if you restart enough. Flowery remembers Resetting to Sans.

If they were true timelines, why do these characters remember after the "Resets"

 

[Squid_peanut]

Believe it or not I think we should ask him on Twitter something like "How many universes are there in the UT cosmology?". Would finally shut up all the annoying threads about the subject. Worst thing that happens he gives us some disaffected "dunno" response like Kamiya.

I tried asking him a while back and he didnt reply, if you're willing to do it it's worth a shot but I doubt he cares about this sort of thing

 

[Verivici]

you did?

 

[Squid_peanut]

@HIT IT. when looking at stuff said, it's honestly both. for the existence of countless timelines with countless sanses, during the sans fight he explicitly mentions that studies he was part of revealed that there existed "countless" alternate timelines that were experiancing individuals who could SAVE and LOAD and were doing so. now we are to assume of course that these individuals must be be alternate timeline Frisk/Chara/players. now this bit of text also tells us what SAVE and LOADing actually does, or at least what it looks like from the outside. the determined indivdual right before death having a desire to live (as explained by Flowey), this person then effectively destroys and "stops" their timeline and then reverts it back to a previous state in time that they had cemented in their heart so to speak, with every living thing being forcefully rewound and only those who have large amounts of determination can retain their memories of the aborted events, with more determination = more memories kept. however when they remake the universe it must be in the same timeline for one particular reason. the Barrier. since the barrier is something that is beyond The Player's ability to create or destroy it stands to reason that the new timeline must be in the exact same place as the previous one so as to still have the barrier right where it was.

 

[Squid_peanut]

you did?

like when we were first discussing UT, it was along the lines of "when you said countless timelines did you mean countless finite or countless infinite

 

[Verivici]

You have a point. However, if this is the case, I don't think Chara should be Multiversal, but Universal+, if a massive horde of alternate timeline Charas are required to destroy the multiverse since they can only destroy/recreate their own universe. The term "world" used by Chara is very vague, and shouldn't be interpreted as referring to the entire multiverse.

 

[Squid_peanut]

actually wait no, it must be forcing time back in a way that leaves evidence of the previous go behind while the new timeline is catching up because The Barrier can come back if a true pacifist is reset

 

[Squid_peanut]

You have a point. However, if this is the case, I don't think Chara should be Multiversal, but Universal+, if a massive horde of alternate timeline Charas are required to destroy the multiverse since they can only destroy/recreate their own universe. The term "world" used by Chara is very vague, and shouldn't be interpreted as referring to the entire multiverse.

well for that sans then goes on to say that suddently every timeline ends and he has reason to believe that Chara is the cause for that. Going off of that the possible reasons are that every timeline is identical which is not supported as sans says that they all ultimately stop at the same time but talks about the general starting and stopping with no implication that it is in unison. all timelines are destined to arive at the genocide route at the exact same time, which is just impossible if each timeline is different and the genocide route is dependant on numerous variable things and exact actions, or that only one timeline yields Chara being in control and they are multiversal, which is by far the most likely as it doesn't require mounds of unproven and highly unlikely conjecture to assume.

 

[Aparajita]

Sans is also a victim of believing that the timelines are actually mutliple and not individual. Sans has no way of knowing outside of his ability to tell (as a 3D character) how time works on a 4D scale. So he's just making assumptions.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I believe that Sans is talking about everything in the universal spectrum. He's never encountered anything on a greater scale, as he's never even heard of Omega Flowey or adult Asriel(?). Besides, he goes on saying that Chara (or the anomaly/Player) would destroy this timeline, and then keep on going until there's nothing left. If Chara is responsible for resetting everything, it wouldn't be possible to do that and continue going on.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

you'll keep consuming timelines over and over, until... well. hey. take it from me, kid. someday... you gotta learn when to QUIT

This is the line.

 

[Squid_peanut]

• our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... [Attack #2]
• until suddenly, everything ends. [Attack #3]
• heh heh heh... that's your fault isn't it? [Attack #4]

source: http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Sans/In_Battle

 

[Aparajita]

Again, Sans has no way of perceiving the Space Time continuum. He's saying what he believes is happening.

 

[Parks_Brit]

• our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... [Attack #2]
• until suddenly, everything ends. [Attack #3]
• heh heh heh... that's your fault isn't it? [Attack #4]

source: http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Sans/In_Battle

That is indeed what he is saying, however a timeline stopping in Undertale doesn't mean the world or the timeline was destroyed. It could just as easily refer to a player doing any sort of reset. As for everything ending, this doesn't make sense if we allow for multiple contradicting timelines to exist simultaniousully. If one Frisk does a pacifist run, and another does a genocide, then the genocide should override the pacifist. However, a genocide run in one game does not effect another computer, only the local one. The Genocide only overrides the pacifist if the player does a genocide run followed by a pacifist run.

Perhaps everything ending refers to the player shutting down the game and never touching it again? This would allow sans to be correct while still keeping the timelines logically seperate. It would be the players responsibility if they closed the game and didn't touch it.

 

[Parks_Brit]

We are at a scenerio with a lot of equally likely possibility's. Let's invoke Arkams razor to resolve this.

Conventional theory:

1: Chara has collosal ammounts of power able to influence time. 2: This power also allows Chara to influence space enough to destroy the planet in a single strike. 3: Chara is for some reason still unable to take your soul by force. 4: Chara wants your soul 5: Chara is destroying the world

My theory:

1:Chara lies. 2: Chara is attacking you or a meta part of the game without a defense stat. 3: Chara wants your soul. 4: Chara needs you to give your soul willingly.

If we decide to have Conventionals asumptions 1 and 2 to be the same one, we have a tie and must determine the likelyhood of the asumptions. I would go into a bunch of calculation on how much energy you would need to anihilate the earth, but needless to say it's going to be nearly impossible. It would be a lot easier for Chara to just attack the player rather than destory the entire planet. This makes number 5 of conventional VERY unlikely, so my theory is still more likely to be true.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This topic has been discussed to death. I don't know why this is still open.