Cell vs Post-Crisis Superman

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Again, not always, but in the case of Superman they should be close.

The travel speed argument doesn't work because you would need to maneuver around celestial objects (like asteroids and planets) during travel and to do so you'd need to react close to the speed you're moving.

Im pretty sure that this wiki specifically counts travel and combat speeds as seperate and does not scale between the two.

 

[LegendsVII]

Again, not always, but in the case of Superman they should be close.

The travel speed argument doesn't work because you would need to maneuver around celestial objects (like asteroids and planets) during travel and to do so you'd need to react close to the speed you're moving.

Im pretty sure that this wiki specifically counts travel and combat speeds as seperate and does not scale between the two.

I'm not asking for them to scale between the two.

I'm saying that if you're going to acknowledge Superman's travel speed as being billions of times FTL, then you cannot follow through that his combat speed is ONLY 250c. Superman would NEED to have reaction speeds at LEAST thousands of times faster than that if he's going to be traveling through space at billions-trillions x FTL.

Since that's the case, the femtosecond reaction statement is NOT an outlier, inconsistent, or a lie on behalf of Superman. It makes perfect sense.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

snip
I'm just going from the profile and this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed

If you disagree with the speed listing, you should make a seperate upgrade thread and then come back.

 

[LegendsVII]

snip

I'm just going from the profile and this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed
If you disagree with the speed listing, you should make a seperate upgrade thread and then come back.

I understand how the page works, I'm saying the gap between his supposed combat speed and travel speed is nonsensical. He's already demonstrated being WAY faster than 250c in travel speed, and being that fast in travel speed would entail having reactions WAY faster than 250c-- so the femtosecond reaction time isn't implausible whatsoever.

 

[Antoniofer]

What I'm undestanding from Legend is: if a character casualy fly like 100 light years in about seconds, his flying speed shouldn't be that different his combat/reaction speed due that the character should have certain control level, he need to analyze his/her environment, know where it is and whe it's going; this doesn't only applies to Supa.

However, all this is off topic, you should to make a thread about it, cuz this is only a vsthread.

 

[Strmi]

Why you peopel don't understand travel and combat speed is not same?

Just look at Thor for example,travel speed FTL+ without any problem,combat speed -> MHS

 

[AguilaR101]

I understand how the page works, I'm saying the gap between his supposed combat speed and travel speed is nonsensical. He's already demonstrated being WAY faster than 250c in travel speed, and being that fast in travel speed would entail having reactions WAY faster than 250c-- so the femtosecond reaction time isn't implausible whatsoever.

I'd argue that's not necessarily true in space, considering how unlikely you're to hit something.

If superman has feats of millions of c in earth there is no reason to rule them out as outliers tho, considering how he would obviously need to dodge objects as to not destroy everything.

 

[Strmi]

But anyway,isn't there new rule for speed?where speed always must be equalized in vs fight?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The rule is only for a massive difference in speed and if there's no quality in the other character to make up for it. Kracko vs Kaguya would be a good example of a speedstomp.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Strmi, ehm... nop, speed equalized is used when the gasp between speeds are very high, like... 50x maybe? Anyway, if we are using the 260c from Supa, shouldn't be necessary equalize, at least OP say otherwise

 

[FateAlbane]

Me thinks the problem for Cell here would be like the Ultra Saiyan Trunks vs Perfect Cell Himself:

He has the power to hit his enemy, buuuuuut that's not happening anytime soon when his enemy has the speed advantage and intangibility to boot. On the other hand, it could take a while for Supes to get trough that Regen.

I'm almost going with Supes on this one(unless Cell somehow discovers where Supah powers are coming from and decides to blow up the sun, then Superman is the next one to blow up. I don't think he would last that long, however, so my vote's still the same.).

 

[AguilaR101]

Doesn't superman have intangibility by vibrating his atoms tho?

Considering he should have the edge in combat speed here he would be able to ignore all of Cell's attacks just by going intangible and vibrate Cell's atoms to bypass his durability and regen.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Doesn't superman have intangibility by vibrating his atoms tho?

He does. IIRC, he vibrates his atoms at specific frequencies so that pretty much everything passes through him. He doesn't do this a lot, though I honestly wouldn't count it out after finding out his opponent had just committed genocide against humanity.

 

[Cropfist]

Superman for Promestein's reasons.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

so where is this thread at this point?

 

[LegendsVII]

What I'm undestanding from Legend is: if a character casualy fly like 100 light years in about seconds, his flying speed shouldn't be that different his combat/reaction speed due that the character should have certain control level, he need to analyze his/her environment, know where it is and whe it's going; this doesn't only applies to Supa.
However, all this is off topic, you should to make a thread about it, cuz this is only a vsthread.

Fair enough, I'm glad you understood what I was saying.

 

[LegendsVII]

I understand how the page works, I'm saying the gap between his supposed combat speed and travel speed is nonsensical. He's already demonstrated being WAY faster than 250c in travel speed, and being that fast in travel speed would entail having reactions WAY faster than 250c-- so the femtosecond reaction time isn't implausible whatsoever.

I'd argue that's not necessarily true in space, considering how unlikely you're to hit something.
If superman has feats of millions of c in earth there is no reason to rule them out as outliers tho, considering how he would obviously need to dodge objects as to not destroy everything.

There is a LOOOOT of debris, celestial objects and broken pieces of asteroids in space. Space is huge, but you're likely to run through a lot of that if you're moving at Superman's speed. Unless he can somehow see lightyears upon lightyears ahead, but his super-vision hasn't demonstrated that level of power.

 

[AguilaR101]

There is a LOOOOT of debris, celestial objects and broken pieces of asteroids in space. Space is huge, but you're likely to run through a lot of that if you're moving at Superman's speed. Unless he can somehow see lightyears upon lightyears ahead, but his super-vision hasn't demonstrated that level of power.

Yes there is, but superman has no real need to avoid small debri because simply it won't hurt him even at full speed.

Planets are different, they are large celestial objects and can be seen even several AU away, specially by someone with telescopic vision like Superman.

Even assuming he is moving a trillion times the speed of light, and the nearest object is 1 AU away from him he has plenty of time to react and avoid it without needing reactions on the same level.

 

[Strmi]

Superman doesn't have a way to truly defeat Superman anyway,so how is superman going to win this?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

hmm

sooo

watabout a scenario where cell releases multiple ki blasts from himself (in all directions)

and then IT's behind superman....

or just simply IT's behind superman....

 

[KazarianFahs]

^i am gonna assume standard battle assumptions,i.e. in character but willing to kill

so an in character cell is already willing to kill,so cell will fight the usual way he fought in the anime,so i guess no omnidirectional beams and IT after that,superman is interesting,he has never had an intent to kill,even when fighting guys like Darkseid(there's some CIS and PIS regarding intent to kill regarding doomsday)But basically whenever superman wants to end a fight/kill someone,he directly goes for heatvision labotomy(it was without an intent to kill,intent on killing,supes will probably just vaporize the entire opponent) and he starts using phasing actively and frequently(like against dooms day,where he was phasing through doomsday all through the fight and wrecked him) supes has stuff to put down cell and has a noticable speed advantage to see all of cell's attack coming,and evade them and phasing is just the icing on the cake,which makes it a lot harder for cell to actually land a strike on superman due to a speed advantage and also the ability to phase anytime he wants.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

superman has to go through all thaat risk (being in someone's range who can literally one tap him and tear him apart casually)

meanwhile cell has to IT and tap superman

the way i see it.. it is a stomp in favour of cell...

 

[LegendsVII]

There is a LOOOOT of debris, celestial objects and broken pieces of asteroids in space. Space is huge, but you're likely to run through a lot of that if you're moving at Superman's speed. Unless he can somehow see lightyears upon lightyears ahead, but his super-vision hasn't demonstrated that level of power.

Yes there is, but superman has no real need to avoid small debri because simply it won't hurt him even at full speed.
Planets are different, they are large celestial objects and can be seen even several AU away, specially by someone with telescopic vision like Superman.

Even assuming he is moving a trillion times the speed of light, and the nearest object is 1 AU away from him he has plenty of time to react and avoid it without needing reactions on the same level.

Superman would still try to avoid debris. Space debris can get pretty big, I'm sure he'd avoid crashing through space debris. Additionally, if he's moving at TRILLIONS of times the speed of light, he'd NEED reactions greater than 250c. I'm not saying his reflexes must be trillions of times the speed of light, but they sure as hell need to be WAY higher than 250c. Additionally, again, if he's moving at that speed, he'd still need to see light years upon light years upon LIGHT YEARS ahead, and his telescopic vision has NEVER demonstrated that range.

 

[AguilaR101]

watabout a scenario where cell releases multiple ki blasts from himself (in all directions)

and then IT's behind superman....

or just simply IT's behind superman....

I don't think they would work thanks to superman's intangibility and superior combat + flight speed.

Plus vibration allows him to phase out and destroy on atomic levels while completely ignoring durability.

In this scenario it is pausible he could do that to Cell's core.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

watabout a scenario where cell releases multiple ki blasts from himself (in all directions)

and then IT's behind superman....

or just simply IT's behind superman....

I don't think they would work thanks to superman's intangibility and superior combat + flight speed.
Plus vibration allows him to phase out and destroy on atomic levels while completely ignoring durability.

In this scenario it is pausible he could do that to Cell's core.

iirc cell can regenerate from a small piece, isnt the core an anime only thing tho?

also how wud he know where the core is?

 

[Promestein]

a) Superman can quickly analyze and identify internal structures through x-ray vision and intelligence.

b) Cell being able to regenerate from any cell is actually the anime statement. The original manga and Japanese dub explicitly stated he needed a specific cell - his core - to regenerate from.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ok

also how often has he actually used intangibility?

furthermore, can he do anything against IT?

 

[RadicalMrR]

Well he may know a lot about the biology of beings of his universe but when hes trying to see the organs of a Namikian/Saiyan/Human/Tri-Clopos and whatever else was put in there I don't know if hes even gonna know what hes looking at

And the core cell thing is really inconsistente

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well he may know a lot about the biology of beings of his universe but when hes trying to see the organs of a Namikian/Saiyan/Human/Tri-Clopos and whatever else was put in there I don't know if hes even gonna know what hes looking at
And the core cell thing is really inconsistente

yeah... cell regened from his lower body too .-.

 

[Legion350]

Maybe Cell doesn't have a full grasp on how his powers work.

 

[Strmi]

a) Superman can quickly analyze and identify internal structures through x-ray vision and intelligence.
b) Cell being able to regenerate from any cell is actually the anime statement. The original manga and Japanese dub explicitly stated he needed a specific cell - his core - to regenerate from.

except goku blow up his central core in upper body and he survived

 

[AguilaR101]

ok
also how often has he actually used intangibility?

furthermore, can he do anything against IT?

Anytime he gets serious he starts to use killing techniques so in VS match that's a given.
IT becomes worthless after that too, as even assuming he "hits" he isn't going to do damage.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

wot?

IT is immidiate mmovement

so immediately, goku wudd IT behind superan, and since the gap between spc and superman is like that of a human and a lizard in terms of power

a simple cut will kill superman

and cell's reegn will take care of any dura ignoring damage superman has

 

[AguilaR101]

and cell's reegn will take care of any dura ignoring damage superman has

Cell has never used IT like Goku does and as I said if Superman goes intangible Cell won't be doing any damage regardless of AP, on the other hand superman can phase trhough cell as he vibrates his atoms and bypass his durability and anihilate him on the atomic level, cell's regen is not even on the molecular level in the manga and the fact that he needs his "core" makes this strategy even more easy to pull off.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ummm yeah he regened without the core, and you are behaving as if cell will just stand there as superman uses the molecular thing

ceell cud also IT to another part of thee universe too... and at that time superman wont know where he is and in this confusion, cell wud IT to superman and hit him once

thats all he needs to do

 

[Guyx]

superman is rated as mftl (260 x speed of light) while spc is rated as "at least ftl+"

so the gap is very small.. i'd say something like at most 3 x or something

its noot going to be a mega blitz

also cell can recover from even small part of his body

and all he needs to win is land just one semi serious hit

and he wud

If Cells around 5 x light and superman is 260 x light, then superman is 35 times faster than cell. In perspective, according to wikipedia, a brisk walk is 1.7 m/s. Let this symbolise Cell. Superman would be around 60 m/s or. Cell would then be 6km/h and superman would be 235km/H. This is basically above the max speed of a car vs a human walking. I would call a car driving over someone walking a mega blitz m8

 

[Strmi]

Cell is much higher than 5x light speed.

Just fyi,there's calculation on this site that makes Goku KKX20 against Frieza 20x light speed and SPC is far ahead of that

 

[Jeune_fou]

Cell is much higher than 5x light speed.
Just fyi,there's calculation on this site that makes Goku KKX20 against Frieza 20x light speed and SPC is far ahead of that

In fact Goku KKX20 and 50% Final Form frieza (namek) are 14 times FTL (fighting speed). SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza are 28 times FTL (fighting speed) at least (they didn't use the X 50 multiplier because they were not sure the speed was increased proportionally just like the kaioken).

But after 4 years of training for Goku and Gohan, and the fact SPC was more or less at SSJ2 teen Gohan's level, SPC is obviously at the very least 60 times FTL ( and I'm lowballing), which would make him around around 4,33 times slower than Post crisis superman.

But on the other hand, Cell's AP and durability is dozens of time greater than Superman post crisis' ones, not to mention Cell's high level of intelligence (unlike Goku's he'd certainly understand Superman's powers come from the sun and would not hesitate to use that against Superman) and finally: cell's regen.

Also Cell can "counter" Superman's intangibility with his "perfect barrier" (it's named like that in some video games). He used it in the anime and the manga but it had no name. It's a giant shield (several hundreads of meters) that works like a force field. If intangible Superman tries to attack cell physically, at the exact moment he'll become Tangible (when he'll attack) he'll be pushed back by Cell's "parfect barrier".

When he was "just" perfect cell (weaker than SPC), that "perfect barrier" was durable enough to resist SSJ Goku ki blasts (Goku's AP was already at large star level at that moment) without being damaged at all.

For me Cell wins this.

 

[Strmi]

No,kkx20 is over 20 FTL.Because base GOku is 1.04C

 

[Guyx]

Cell is much higher than 5x light speed.

Just fyi,there's calculation on this site that makes Goku KKX20 against Frieza 20x light speed and SPC is far ahead of that

Thanks, that's true. I didn't know that. Do you have any link to the calc?