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Cardfight!! Vanguard General Discussion Thread

Thats a false equivalance example because weapons are constructued to do what they are designed to do, no matter who uses them. In this case, we are speaking about humans possessing and summoning various Units with various abilities to fight on their behalf and to do certain feats. Which is why we shouldn't abitrarily scale feats from cardfighters and Units to each other, but only to cardfighters who's strength and skill consistently matches each other.

And yes, the power of a deck sets apart cardfighters from each other. Ren Suzugamori completely curbstomped Kenji Mitsusada despite both of them being National champion level cardfighters. Plus the fact that, as PSYqualia users, Ren and Aichi can even feel the strength of the Units coming from the decks they use, clearly proving that strength plays a factor into cardfighters defeating each other.
 
No it isn't a false equivalence, two people summoning the same card in this case isn't wildly different then two people using the same weapon. The difference isn't power, it is how the tools are used. Same goes for Ren and Kenji, the difference isn't necessarily raw power (unless you mean something like just having better stats on your cards, which isn't usually related to raw power.)

Also sensing power doesn't prove that their are massive tier gaps between cardfighters, especially between uses of the same card.
 
>No it isn't a false equivalence, two people summoning the same card in this case isn't wildly different then two people using the same weapon. The difference isn't power, it is how the tools are used.

Yes, but the problem with this argument is that even if it comes down to how the Unit is used, you would still need to prove that these run of the mill cardfighters can still use these Units to the degree that highly experienced cardfighters can use them at. Remember, part of Cardfight!! Vanguard is literally using the Units in battle on their home-terf of Planet Cray yourself. And as far as the tier 4 ratings go, the bar is already set pretty high in-verse.

For example, Goddess of the Cresent Moon Tsukuyomi pulls of the High 4-C feat that the verse currently scales to when being used by Misaki Tokura, someone whos highly experienced early into the series and who's playstyle matches perfectly with Oracle Think Tank. The Burden of Proof would have to be on you to prove someone else can use Cresent Moon Tsukuyomi to that same extent as Misaki, or more. Otherwise, theres no reason for us to believe a random everyday child can tap into the same level of a Unit's power that one of the games strongest players can unleash.
 
I need the burden of proof?

You are the one claiming that the same card, the same summon, is weaker when certain people use it based on the what?

There is no reason for a power gap between the same card. When has a card just tanked hits from another card that should be equally powerful just because the player was weaker?
 
Im basing it on the cardfighter not using the Unit to the same caliber as the main characters do. After all, like I said, this is not simply a case of a card game being played. We're talking about players being able to, with their souls, possess these Units and fight alongside them against other players who do the same thing.

In other words, Vanguard ulitizes actual combat with the cardfighter and their Units when they battle on Planet Cray during cardfights. So when Cardfighter A performs, lets say a 5-B feat with a Unit, why should we first assume an inexperienced Cardfighter B whos hasnt faced the kind of challenges cardfighter A has experienced, can use the same kind of power with the Unit and do the same feat?
 
Because they are using the same units. Again show me where a unit was too strong to hurt for a unit that should be as strong or stronger then it because of the user's raw power?
 
No no potato, thats not what my argument is. If a Cardfighters Units are unable to legitimately harm another Cardfighter's Units, thats a whole different matter in regards to the scaling.

My argument here is that a random Cardfighter shouldnt be assumed to be able to use their Units power at the same level as a highly experienced Cardfighter who has used those same Units at a particular level. To make sure you can see what im saying, i'll give a more specific example.

Lets say Toshiki Kai uses his Avatar Unit, Dragonic Overlord, to destroy a planet easily. A solid 5-B feat. Then, Kai gets challenged by a random everyday Cardfighter who also has Dragonic Overlord. What my argument here is saying is that this random Cardfighter shouldnt be able to use Dragonic Overlord at 5-B levels like Kai could without evidence that he can.
 
They are literally the same unit, you need evidence that they would be different.

What about that don't you understand.

I think I have seen enough of the argument to make a CRT about this, it is more accurate and might allow for more card profiles to be made.
 
Well Vanguard is extremely new to the wikia so there isnt any point in making a CRT for it rather than just discussing it with me and the other users in this discussion thread who know about it.

But anyway, yes they are the same Unit, but I personally don't agree with the notion that just anyone can use those same Units at the same level of power as another high level Cardfighter can, unless its proven they can. This allows us to make reasonable and conservative scaling.
 
honestly the problem i see is that the rando fighters using the same unit may not use the unit to its best potential. sure its the same but the fighter would be treated like fodder which scaling them to the cast would make no sense as it would give the notion the other main fighters are stupidly higher from what i see. idk if i phrase it right but yeah
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
honestly the problem i see is that the rando fighters using the same unit may not use the unit to its best potential. sure its the same but the fighter would be treated like fodder which scaling them to the cast would make no sense as it would give the notion the other main fighters are stupidly higher from what i see. idk if i phrase it right but yeah
Click to expand...
This pretty much.

Aichi, Kai and the main cast of cardfighters are the ones who constantly move to improve their skills, face challenges that normal players would never have opportunities to, obtain Units that are higher leveled compared to ordinary players, etc. They are in a class of their own. Simply using the same Units as them shouldn't mean the fodder of the verse can ulitize them to the same extent, especially when these feats are coming from the main cast.

I get that factors like deck construction and what not are to be considered too, but from a combat perspective and for the sake of using careful scaling, it's more reasonable to only tier cardfighters who are of the same caliber as the main cast.
 
If you said that all fighter get same energy because they play the same deck, Gyze would choose another vessel with Luard deck other than Kazuma
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Well Vanguard is extremely new to the wikia so there isnt any point in making a CRT for it rather than just discussing it with me and the other users in this discussion thread who know about it.

But anyway, yes they are the same Unit, but I personally don't agree with the notion that just anyone can use those same Units at the same level of power as another high level Cardfighter can, unless its proven they can. This allows us to make reasonable and conservative scaling.
Click to expand...
This would apply if there was any indication in-verse that the franchise worked like that. But it doesn't seem that way. You are adding more rules to the series that would not exist otherwise. Unless you can show me definite proof of unit power varying significantly between two uses of the same or similar power units, then this scaling is built on a nonsense assumption.
 
I dont see how its "nonsense" when its built more on being safely conservative. The last thing we need is people giving us complaints that a bunch of randoms are being scaled to the same tier as the main characters, who are recognized as some of the game's most powerful players ever seen.

Unless you think this should be treated similar to Pokemon and/or Digimon?
 
I mean, even if we changed the scaling rules to go off of that, it wouldn't really change anything for the verse. It would only mean that everyday fodder and their mothers in the verse who use the same Units as Cardfighters who perform the feats scale to the tier.

Characters would still need feats to justify them being ranked in the same tier as the main characters.
 
Not really since they would scale by grade, like Pokémon's or Digimon's scaling. It makes sense since grades are a sort of in game scaling system.
 
Do we do that for Pokemon? I know for Digimon we scale every Digimon to each other when it comes to Baby Status, Rookie Status, Champion status, etc. but for Pokemon do the stage evolution rank scaling applies to all Pokemon in the verse or just by region?
 
I am sure that here it is verse wide. The only exceptions currently being the weakest Pokémon or certain protagonist characters.
 
If thats the case, what would make Vanguard the same as that? The main character cast in Vanguard is pretty much what the main cast are in Pokemon. Specially trained trainers/cardfighters.
 
It may seem that way because the feats for Vanguard come from the main characters themselves. Instead of a case like Pokemon where weaker average Pokemon do something that specially trained Pokemon and trainers scale to, Vanguard does the opposite of that and has the relevant characters do the feats.

Plus, there are characters who use the same Units as the more notable characters and never use them to the same caliber. A great example of this would be Taishi Miwa. Like Kai, Miwa himself is also a user of Units from the Kagero Clan and even uses much of the same Units Kai uses. This includes Kai's Avatar, Dragonic Overlord. However, Miwa isn't as strong of a fighter as Kai is. Miwa's only feats so far is giving Aichi difficulty in a cardfight he ended up losing and being regarded as Kai's training partner. For those reasons, Miwa scales to the main cast's tier but he isn't on the same level as Kai despite having the same Units and clan.

Kai is recognized as one of the most powerful cardfighters to ever play the game and is someone Aichi spends the series chasing after. Miwa on the other hand is just someone who trains with Kai to help him improve.
 
Yeah, but none of that proves that the differences are power based at all. The differences are based in the card mechanics rather then raw stats. In fact, Miwa kinda helps my point. He is considered less then Kai but he still gives similar trouble to people without any indication of less raw power. This suggests that the difference is based in the game mechanics rather then Kai just being more strong.


Again, can you prove that the characters would have a stat difference with similar units? Their doesn't seem to be any indication in the series.
 
How does Miwa help you? Him keeping up with the main cast just means he's relative to them, not that he's exactly as strong as Kai is with his Kagero Units. Again, Kai is the one who's far superior to everyone else barring Ren and Aichi, and Aichi doesnt surpass Kai until the very end of Season 1. Miwa was only good enough to give Aichi difficulty in a single cardfight for being Kai's training partner. They clearly aren't on the same level at all or else Miwa would've been much superior to Aichi, which is absolutely not true.

Even without Miwa, there are other examples. In the Regional and National tournaments they have participated in, Aichi's Team has faced off against characters who use the same Oracle Think Tank Units as Misaki. One of them even using Goddess of the Cresent, Half and Full Moon Tsukuyomi. But unlike Misaki, these characters never pull off the same feats with those Units as Misaki can herself.
 
But that doesn't mean that they don't scale. They still were able to fight against the team, showing that they scale. Again you never shown how any of this is related to tiering and not just card skills. You don't need to replecate a feat to show that you scale if you fight against people who can match the feat. Not every Pokémon needs tier 7 feats but most to all are tier 7.

Miwa does help me, he still has enough raw power to give Aichi a loss and their is no indication that he is "weaker." then Aichi in raw power, but he is considered weaker, this suggests that strength here refers to card skills. Again you haven't proven that the differences are ever based in stats, which is a large claim considering the lack of evidence and the genre we are talking about.
 
Pokemon has the luxary of using more than just purely stage scaling though. Some pokemon rated here even have the Pokedex backing up specific pokemon species matching each other (like Seviper and Zangoose for example), which takes away the need for every species to have Tier 7 feats. In Vanguards case however, the only thing connecting a well developed Cardfighter and a fodder one is that they use the same Units as each other, neglecting to factor in one using a Unit far better than the other. Which would explain why Misaki can pull off a casual High 4-C feat with Tsukuyomi while average Cardfighters don't do anything close to that.

I think you are misunderstanding my last point. Miwa lost to Aichi, not the other way around. Miwa gave Aichi difficulty yes, but Aichi is the one who defeated him. The same Aichi who makes desperate attempts just to catch up to Kai's level. I know this is a card-game series we are talking about, but it makes absolutely NO sense to rate everyone at the same exact level of power and only differentiate them in skill.

A clear powerscaling chain is here and the current method is the only way to logistically define that.

EDIT: Ignore all of this.
 
You are doing nothing but assuming that there is a power difference based on what? I don't see any evidence here.

Misaka using her cards better doesn't make Tsukuyomi herself stronger, she is the same unit as fodder uses. Again show me where skill leads to one character's units being stronger then another. Misaka having the feat doesn't prove that others don't scale when they have literally the same cards. You are adding an explanation that doesn't exist in the series, pretty much head canon.


Miwa still gave Aichi significant trouble and has no indication of being physically weaker then Kai's units. This suggests that the difference has nothing to do with power. (this power scale isn't actually a power scale anyway, it is all skill based.)

How does it make no sense to rate all units if a grade at the same power and differentiate them in skill when that is how it is in-verse (I mean the actual franchise, not your head canon version.) let's be honest this whole power difference is nothing but head canon, units of a grade are both usually shown as comparable, and that is how it works in game.

You have no real ground for this, and the Revision thread starts tomorrow, now stop wasting our times and let this be.
 
Okay, so I spoke to DragonmasterXYZ about our general consensus about tamers and summoners here (he's a considerable supporter for Digimon so speaking with him would be very helpful) and it seems you're right 00Potato.

Unless there's evidence to prove a summon (or in Vanguard's case, a Unit) is weaker depending on the tamer (or in Vanguard's case, a Cardfighter) who uses it, there's no reason not to scale the summon's feats between high level tamers and fodder tamers. So I guess theres no need for us to be conservative with Vanguard's scaling after all.
 
Understandable, thank you and Dragon for working this out. Do I still need the thread now?

Does this mean that all cards can get profiles since we are using grade based scaling?
 
I also apologize to you if I sounded snarkish to you in any way. I let my need to be conservative and on the safe side get in the way because of my misunderstanding of how scaling summons would work under circumstances like these.

Vanguard's a verse that I want to give as much suppport, and honesty, to as much as possible so I again apologize if causing any tension here while discussing with you.
 
Nah, snark is fine. I use that frequently when I debate for the fun of it. It is merely a discussion and we can all be friendly afterwards.

Also quick question. Is their any sorta online system that is currently running (like ygopro for yugioh.) for Vanguard, I know about the mobile game but I am curious about getting to actually play Vanguard earlier or if the app isn't that good.
 
There used to be Vanguard Online (a site where you could play the game but its currently no more) and there is Vanguard EX for the Nintendo Switch, but besides that and the current mobile game Vanguard Zero (imagine Duel Links but for Vanguard), nah there isn't.

Sadly.
 
Anywho, just to confirm, I now agree with not limitng the scaling anymore and applying the Grade Scaling like how Pokemon, Digimon and general tamers do theirs. Besides obvious specific feats limited to the main cast of course.
 
Before I fall asleep, I want to take a moment to detail out what the new scaling would look like after the above discussions conclusion.

Things, as of now, would still stay the same for the most part. The High 4-C ratings scale from Misaki Tokura's Grade 1 Godess of the Cresent Moon Tsukuyomi performing a High 4-C feat. So Misaki's own Units still scale the same way, with her Grade 3's > her Grade 2's > her Grade 1's who compare to Tsukuyomi who did the feat. And all of the current characters with pages here directly scale from Misaki for either defeating her, comparing to her and/or defeating each other. So there's no need for them to change, they can stay as they are.

Now, what would be new from this new scaling method would be that any Cardfighter who uses Units from the Oracle Think Tank clan (the clan Misaki uses) in general would be High 4-C since Cresent Moon Tsukuyomi is one of the clan's Grade 1 Units. Thus, all Grade 1, 2 and 3 Units in the entire Oracle Think Tank clan would be High 4-C.

Not only that, but to make the scaling similar to verses like Pokemon and Digimon, Vanguard's Grade scaling would make this so that all Grade 1's, Grade 2's and Grade 3's in Vanguard thus far would also scale to the High 4-C feat from Cresent Moon Tsukuyomi as well.

However, one thing should remain unchanged. Any of the characters who have never won any relevant cardfight, or been in any relevant matchup with the main characters and did something to show they compare to them, shouldn't be apart of the scaling. That way, we can still differentiate the notable Cardfighters and the ones who are just fodder everyday players. That, and we don't clutter up the wikia with less-important pages.
 
Some exciting news for everyone incase you werent notified of it.

The new mobile game, Vanguard ZERO, launched today and is available for downloading. I definitely reccomend it to anyone who can get it!
 
Heya everyone! I hope you were all able to come to our new home in this new forum and are ready to enjoy it!

Now of course I know it has been quite a while since I, or anyone for that matter, messaged this discussion thread. That is my bad. Between things going on for me IRL, and the long-awaited forum move to be completed, there was no good opportunity to message this and give any new updates from last time. But, now that the new forum is up, we can expect things to go back into full motion for the site here soon.

And for us, that will give us the chance to continue our revisions on Cardfight!! Vanguard. Like I previously mentioned before, the upgrades that need to be applied were already accepted. The only thing that kept us from being able to apply them was the forum move and it giving huge restrictions on what could be done by regular members as far as editing/creating new pages go, which is precisely whats required for the current Vanguard revisions.

Hopefully, once everything here in the new forum is 100% up and running, I will do my best to continue the revision process by creating new character profiles and editing the pages accordingly to apply the upgrades.

My apologies again for this late and very seemingly necroed response. But your Vanguard is here to show you all the way!
 
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