Captain Tsubasa CRT - Part 1 (CLOSED!)

[David_Is_Goat]

So!! I have been working in this CRT for months, and we are finally here!! This is the Captain Tsubasa Content Revision Thread!

Tier and Speed​

Spoiler: Kids' Dream Arc (Elementary School)

• Tier: Athlete level+, up to Street level (Everyone is capable of enduring Hyuga's shot potency, which had this much of power at the start of the elementary school tournament. Hyuga is also able to sent people flying while using his straight-line dribble or after clashing with someone. He also sent Wakabayahsi flying and almost scored)
• Speed: Subsonic (Most of players can react to shots from Hyuga, which goes at a speed of 34.3 m/s, as it went faster than Nankatsu players' perception. Later they could keep up with that, Ishizaki, for example, blocked a powerfull shot from Hyuga. Not only this but some players can turn into invisible, or then just outclass them in terms of speed.)

Scaling: The main reason at which i scale them to Street level despite the feats with this calibre were just performed by Tsubasa and Hyuga, everyone should scale for this as even from the first match between Meiwa and Nankatsu SC, characters like Izawa and Ishizaki could endure shots from Hyuga. Not only this, but its stated in "Hanawa vs Nankatsu SC" than they grew a lot since their first match against Meiwa (taking account the match took place few days after meiwa match)

Spoiler: Boys' Fight Arc (Middle School)

• Tier: Wall level (Derived from Tiger Shot, which can open holes in concrete walls consistently)
  • Hyuga uses his Tiger Shot during Toho's match against Matsumashi, to compare his shot speed to Sorimachi's shot
  • Tiger Shot also made a hole in wall, when Hyuga interrupted Tsubasa's Drive Shot
  • During the final against Toho, Tsubasa reflects Hyuga's Tiger Shot. He don't only score against Toho and pierces through the net, but also made a giant hole
• Speed: At least Subsonic, up to Supersonic (Mach 1.18 - Tiger Shot blitzed Wakashimazu from the center of the field)
  • Although the calc isn't accepted yet, we could still argue this to above subsonic. Like, speed blitz from like 50 meters is absurd to only subsonic
  • Edit: This calc got accepted!

Scaling:

• Drive Shot and Tiger Shot Scaling: It's implied than most of the major characters is at wall level as they resisted Tsubasa's Drive Shot, which has the same potency as Tiger Shot. During the final of the middle school tournament, when Hyuga's Tiger Shot and Tsubasa's Drive Shot clashed, the ball didn't even moved a centimeter, which can be explained by euclidian vectors: the force is equal to 0 when two vectors has oposite directions, but same magnitude. This is also supported by Wakashimazu stating than both shots has the same potency
• Speed Scaling: The Supersonic speed for them should be consistent, as using KE formula on the "Tiger Shot blitzing Wakashimazu" calc, we get wall level, which corroborates with Hyuga perfuring walls with this shot

Spoiler: Junior Youth Arc (International Tournament in France)

• Tier: At least Wall level (Same as Boys' Fight Arc), up to Small Building level (Just for top tiers, derived from Muller one-shooting a boulder)
  • Characters who scale to 9-A: Tsubasa, Hyuga, Schneider and Muller
  • Characters who scale to at least 9-B, to possibly 9-A: Wakabayashi, Diaz, Pierre, Napoleon and Gino
  • Characters who scale to 9-B: Major of the characters in this arc
• Speed: At least Supersonic (Everyone is capable of reacting to Tiger Shot at this point), up to possibly Hypersonic (Due to Fire Shot ignation via air compression. See Schneider's abilities for more info)

Scaling: Pratically the same as Boys' Fight Arc, with the difference Tiger Shot is almost useless against characters like Gino, Pierre, Muller and etc.

Speed System​

Here, in terms of speed, there's two types of speed used in the verse: Travel and Combat speed. Everyone should have at least Athletic Human travel speed for obvious reasons, with characters that can catch up with Nitta reaching Athletic Human+, as he can run 100 meters in 11 seconds. Most of the characters reach at least Subsonic combat speed, as a lot of characters can react to Hyuga shots and even turn invisible with raw speed (Like Soda, Tsubasa and Urabe)

Abilities for Characters​

Spoiler: For specific characters

Spoiler: Ozora Tsubasa

• Social Influencing
  • Social Position - His hierarchical position in soccer made almost every japanese in middle school play the national tournament in order to face Tsubasa in a match, influencing also Jito, who never played football before knowing him.
  • Instigating Fear - Made Sawada fell fear just by his stare in both, elementary school and middle school
  • Leadership - His leadership not only made Nankatsu SC win its first national, but he also leaded them to win the national tournament three times in a row in middle school
  • Charisma - Can easily motivate his teammates with few words, regaining their fighting spirit and willpower
• Genius Intelligence
• Technique Copying & Information Analysis (Has the innate ability of copying other's techniques, just needing to look one single time to it to discover how it works)
  • Acrobatics (Copied Diaz's Miracle Overhead Shot)
  • Limited Surface Scaling (Copied Wakashimazu's Triangle Jump)
• Supernatural Willpower (Will always refuses to give up. Has an immense willpower that allows him to play even seriously injuried)
  • Pain Tolerance (Continued playing the final of the tournament against Toho, even after the painkiller applied on him were negated by Hyuga's Tiger Shot potency)
• Attack Reflection (Via Counter Shot)
• Possible Telepathy (Possibly communicated with Hyuga via thoughts, as they had the idea of merging their special shots, creating the Drive Tiger Twin Shot)

Spoiler: Kojiro Hyuga

• Attack Reflection (Via Counter Shot)
• Acrobatics (Via Overhead Tiger Shot)
• Painkiller Negation (Nullified the painkillers Tsubasa applied in his own shoulder)

Spoiler: Genzo Wakabayashi

• Acrobatics & Limited Surface Scaling (Used Wakashimazu's Traingle Jump to stop Schneider's Fire Shot)

Spoiler: Ken Wakashimazu

• Supernatural Willpower
  • Awakened Power & Pain Tolerance (An upsurge of emotions managed him to stop Napoleon's Cannon Shot, although moments before he couldn't stop a regular shot from Bossis due to his injury)
• Acrobatics & Limited Surface Scaling (Via Triangle Jump)
• Martial Arts (Practitioner of Karate)
• Regeneration (Low, Non-Combat Applicable - Managed to get almost 100% healed in few weeks from a serious injury that made him bleed intensily after catching Schneider's Fire Shot)

Spoiler: Shun Nitta

• Accelerated Development (Abilities - His timing was getting better every attempt he tried to use Hayabusa Running Volley)

Spoiler: Mitsuru Sano

• Enhanced Senses (It was revealed in Q&A thread than Sano unique's visible angle for him is from his lower vision, meaning all of his vision is covered with his hair. Even though he can perform dribbles and headers)
• Acrobatics (He dribbles his opponents at an acrobatic level)

Spoiler: Juan Diaz

• Acrobatics (Via Miracle Overhead Shot)

Spoiler: Karl Heinz Schneider

• Limited Fire Manipulation & Air Manipulation (Via Fire Shot)
  • During Germany's match against Uruguay, Wakabayashi refers to this shot as a "fireball", stating that it is truly on fire. Although he didn't knew the method at which he lights the ball on fire, we later find out than it's via air compression
  • Posteriorly, Schneider's Fire Shot burned Ishizaki and Jito, without the shot even touch them
  • In Rise of New Champions game, which is non-canon for the main timeline, but has pratically the same concepts as the orignal manga (which should be canon in some parts, as Yoichi Takahashi, the author of Captain Tsubasa had a direct participation in the game production), during the U-16 Germany's training, the friction provided by this shot burned Margus' leg
  • "A shot kicked with such a force that the friction sets the ball aflame." - Fire Shot's description in Rise of New Champions
  • Still during "Japan vs Germany", during a duel between Schneider and Wakabayashi, his Fire Shot incinerated Wakabayashi's cap, turning it into dust.
• Self-Blood Manipulation (After clashing with Tsubasa, he bit his own leg to take away the numbness. Numbness is lack of blood in the nervous system

Spoiler: Deuter Muller

• Aura (Fear-inducing - Known in the whole European continent as the "Phantom Keeper", Muller possesses a smashing aura that made Tsubasa feel there's no chance of scoring against him, just like he was a perfect goalkeeper with no weaknesses)

Anime Canonicity​

• The best usable anime for a accurate scaling with the manga is Captain Tsubasa J (1994), because of its linearity and faithfullness to the manga. Captain Tsubasa (2018) is usable tho, if we ignore the minor details, such as the technology existence (smartphones, notebooks and etc) and the minor changes
  • The Road to 2002 anime (2001), although having similar events, it has countless contradictions. For example, in this anime, Yayoi just meets Tsubasa by the end of the first half of "Nankatsu vs Musashi", while in the manga she debuted in the Shizuoka preliminars, stating than Tsubasa was her childhood friend. Other thing is the fact Davi, midfielder of Juventus and Netherlands national team was replaced by Edgar Davids. We also have exclusal of characters,as Natureza doesn't appear in the anime, even though he debuted before Tsubasa moving to Barcelona
  • The first anime from 1983 has addition of characters that doesn't exist in the manga. In U-16 Germany team, Muller is replaced by Hefner. There's also fillers episodes, such as the U-13 international tournament, where Japan faces USA. There's also inconsistences, because in this same anime its shown than Hyuga's father died due to a non-specified illiness, while in the manga he died in a car accident.
    • Because of this, profiles for specific characters from this anime will be made

Tsubasa's Page Draft

Tsubasa Ozora (Manga) - Page Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

Note: Part 2 will be the arcs Tsubasa was above 18. So i will still do World Youth (U-20 World Cup), Road to 2002, Golden-23, Overseas Fierce Fights (La Liga and Serie A), Rising Sun and Rising Sun Finals. Part 3 will be about the games (Rise of New Champions and Tecmo series)

People tagged in bold are mods

Agree: @Apex_Predator_GX @Lilybitdun @Kiryu-MG3 @Dinozxd @TartaChocholate @FinePoint @UchihaSlayer96
Disagree:
Neutral:L

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me. Nice job, bro!

 

[David_Is_Goat]

OP looks fine to me. Nice job, bro!

tysm

 

[Lilybitdun]

Should add Non-Combat Applicable to Ken's regen since it took weeks

Agree overall, if the supersonic calc gets accepted I agree with that too

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Should add Non-Combat Applicable to Ken's regen since it took weeks

I agree

 

[Zenith_Enigma]

Easy agreement for me.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Bump
(Yo guys, the Tiger Shot speed calc got accepted)

 

[Lilybitdun]

Although he didn't knew the method at which he lights the ball on fire, we later find out than it's via air compression

could you provide the scan for this?

 

[David_Is_Goat]

could you provide the scan for this?

"I got a bruise from the air frictionated by it"
This after Jito and Ishizaki's attempt to block Fire Shot

 

[Lilybitdun]

Yeah seems like Hypersonic for Fire Shot works then

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Honestly i have my doubts about this, so i listed it as "possibly". Catching on fire at hypersonic speeds likely just works for humans, not for objects like a soccer ball

Bodies are typically cremated at around 1,500°C and aircraft research from NASA reveals that you’d need to be running at Mach 5 (6,000km/h) to reach that temperature.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Honestly i have my doubts about this, so i listed it as "possibly". Catching on fire at hypersonic speeds likely just works for humans, not for objects like a soccer ball

Deltarune has Hypersonic speed accepted for a similar reason so it should be fine

Hypersonic (Her Final Attack is a giant baseball that is thrown so fast to get set ablaze, whose speed would be Mach 5, and she could fight on par with the Thrash Machine that could counter said attack. Can move so fast that she leaves afterimages behind, other than her attacks not leaving the Delta Warriors a chance to react)

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Deltarune has Hypersonic speed accepted for a similar reason so it should be fine

Hum...

 

[Dinozxd]

As a Captain Tsubasa fan since childhood, I had to review this thread. There are some stuff I don't agree with though:

Tier: Athlete level+, up to Street level (Everyone is capable of enduring Hyuga's shot potency,

Endure, sure. Blocking or tanking the shot, no. Only players that could block Hyuga's shots from Nankatsu are Tsubasa (Misaki should be able to block it too through scaling to him) and Wakabayshi. Even Takasugi, who's the strongest player in Nankatsu outta these three instantly collapsed after taking Hyuga's shot.

Only characters in the elementary school arc that should scale to Hyuga's shot should be; Tsubasa, Misaki, Wakabayshi, Misugi, Nakanishi and Wakashimazu. I don't remember anyone else matching Hyuga in strength.

Later they could keep up with that, Ishizaki, for example, blocked a powerfull shot from Hyuga.

He kinda just jumped in and hoped for the best tbh. You can't really prove that he reacted to the shot and matched it in speed.

Tsubasa's travel speed being Subsonic is kinda inconsistent with Nitta being able to match a much older Tsubasa with a confirmed 9 m/s travel speed, so that feat should be considered an outlier tbh.

Tier: Wall level (Derived from Tiger Shot, which can open holes in concrete walls consistently)

• Hyuga uses his Tiger Shot during Toho's match against Matsumashi, to compare his shot speed to Sorimachi's shot
• Tiger Shot also made a hole in wall, when Hyuga interrupted Tsubasa's Drive Shot
• During the final against Toho, Tsubasa reflects Hyuga's Tiger Shot. He don't only score against Toho and pierces through the net, but also made a giant hole

I don't disagree with this one, but I think listing the exact KE value you got from this calc as well would be better.

Also the anime version of the 3rd feat could get a higher result than 35 kilojoules tbh.

Drive Shot and Tiger Shot Scaling: It's implied than most of the major characters is at wall level as they resisted Tsubasa's Drive Shot, which has the same potency as Tiger Shot.

To be honest, only Jito, Matsuyama and Wakashimazu (although barely) could tank or block Drive Shot if I remember correctly. Not "most major characters". Only characters that would scale to Drive / Tiger Shots in this arc would be Tsubasa, Hyuga, Jito, Matsuyama and Wakashimazu.

At least Supersonic (Everyone is capable of reacting to Tiger Shot at this point)

I can't really comment on this since I don't remember the Junior Youth Arc very much (was gonna watch the new anime season to refresh my memory but the animation and art style was so trash I had to drop it) do you have scans that show low tiers (like Ishizaki level) reacting to Tiger Shot? Only Wakabayashi and Gino could react to it if I remember correctly.

up to possibly Hypersonic (Due to Fire Shot ignation via air compression. See Schneider's abilities for more info)

Gotta talk about this:

• During Germany's match against Uruguay, Wakabayashi refers to this shot as a "fireball", stating that it is truly on fire. Although he didn't knew the method at which he lights the ball on fire, we later find out than it's via air compression
• Posteriorly, Schneider's Fire Shot burned Ishizaki and Jito, without the shot even touch them
• In Rise of New Champions game, which is non-canon for the main timeline, but has pratically the same concepts as the orignal manga (which should be canon in some parts, as Yoichi Takahashi, the author of Captain Tsubasa had a direct participation in the game production), during the U-16 Germany's training, the friction provided by this shot burned Margus' leg
• "A shot kicked with such a force that the friction sets the ball aflame." - Fire Shot's description in Rise of New Champions
• Still during "Japan vs Germany", during a duel between Schneider and Wakabayashi, his Fire Shot incinerated Wakabayashi's cap, turning it into dust.

• We never see the ball to get fully on fire either. We just see some slight burn marks on the ball.
• I'm not sure how that scene means that the ball was set on fire.
• "as Yoichi Takahashi, the author of Captain Tsubasa had a direct participation in the game production" do you have any sources for this?
• Wakabayashi's cap was most likely pulverized, not incinerated as that would require the ball to at least catch on fire while it looked fine till it exploded from the impact which isn't related to temperature at all. If a shot packing energy massively higher than 35 KJ hits a cap, it only makes sense that it pulverizes it lol.

Honestly i have my doubts about this, so i listed it as "possibly". Catching on fire at hypersonic speeds likely just works for humans, not for objects like a soccer ball

Btw, the Mach 5 speed you're refering to is not only just for humans (like you said), but it's also the speed a human needs to run to be able to reach 1500 degrees celsius, which is the temperature that's used to cremate people lol. The source then states that running at 2500 kmh would set materials like nylon and wool on fire. A soccer ball is made out of leather, and Schneider can't even set that on fire, which suggests that Fire Shot doesn't even clock 2500 kmh (694 m/s), let alone Mach 5.

For reference, even if Schneider's shot incinirated the ball completely, it still wouldn't scale him to Mach 5 speeds.


I didn't fully read the character abilities yet, will read them later though.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Endure, sure. Blocking or tanking the shot, no. Only players that could block Hyuga's shots from Nankatsu are Tsubasa (Misaki should be able to block it too through scaling to him) and Wakabayshi. Even Takasugi, who's the strongest player in Nankatsu outta these three instantly collapsed after taking Hyuga's shot.

He kinda just jumped in and hoped for the best tbh. You can't really prove that he reacted to the shot and matched it in speed.

These characters still blocked the shot. The fact they resisted and survived shots of this level proofs they are capable of such tier

Tsubasa's travel speed being Subsonic is kinda inconsistent with Nitta being able to match a much older Tsubasa with a confirmed 9 m/s travel speed, so that feat should be considered an outlier tbh.

I said than CT verse uses both travel speed and combat speed

I don't disagree with this one, but I think listing the exact KE value you got from this calc as well would be better.

Also the anime version of the 3rd feat could get a higher result than 35 kilojoules tbh.

To be honest, only Jito, Matsuyama and Wakashimazu (although barely) could tank or block Drive Shot if I remember correctly. Not "most major characters". Only characters that would scale to Drive / Tiger Shots in this arc would be Tsubasa, Hyuga, Jito, Matsuyama and Wakashimazu.

Sano did it too (Chapter 67, pages 49 and 50)

I can't really comment on this since I don't remember the Junior Youth Arc very much (was gonna watch the new anime season to refresh my memory but the animation and art style was so trash I had to drop it) do you have scans that show low tiers (like Ishizaki level) reacting to Tiger Shot? Only Wakabayashi and Gino could react to it if I remember correctly.

I exaggerated when i said "everyone", but we have a good amount of characters that has capacity of blocking Tiger Shot

• Ishizaki not only blocked Tiger Shot three times during the final against Toho
  • (Chapter 80, page 69)
  • (Chapter 80, pages 90-91)
  • (Chapter 83, page 49)
• Ishizaki also stopped Schneider's Fire Shot, which is by far stronger than Tiger Shot (Chapter 107, pages 25-26)
• After a rough play, Pierre managed to block Tiger Shot (Chapter 101, pages 19 to 22)

• I'm not sure how that scene means that the ball was set on fire.
• We never see the ball to get fully on fire either. We just see some slight burn marks on the ball.

Bro, like, Wakabayashi clearly stated than Fire Shot was truly on fire, and Ishizaki got burnt by the air frictionated by Fire Shot. You can't simply deny it. It's explicitly Fire Manipualtion

• Wakabayashi's cap was most likely pulverized, not incinerated as that would require the ball to at least catch on fire while it looked fine till it exploded from the impact which isn't related to temperature at all. If a shot packing energy massively higher than 35 KJ hits a cap, it only makes sense that it pulverizes it lol.

No proof that shot touched wakabayashi's cap

• "as Yoichi Takahashi, the author of Captain Tsubasa had a direct participation in the game production" do you have any sources for this?

Captain Tsubasa made its global launch in August 2020, and Takahashi annonuced the game in January.

Btw, the Mach 5 speed you're refering to is not only just for humans (like you said), but it's also the speed a human needs to run to be able to reach 1500 degrees celsius, which is the temperature that's used to cremate people lol. The source then states that running at 2500 kmh would set materials like nylon and wool on fire. A soccer ball is made out of leather, and Schneider can't even set that on fire, which suggests that Fire Shot doesn't even clock 2500 kmh (694 m/s), let alone Mach 5.

As i said, that's why i listed as possibly. Even though, it's way faster than Tiger Shot (404 m/s)

 

[Dinozxd]

These characters still blocked the shot. The fact they resisted and survived shots of this level proofs they are capable of such tier

Not really lol. Even average irl humans can easily survive Athlete lvl AP. Also like I said, even Takasugi by himself couldn't tank Hyuga's shot.

I said than CT verse uses both travel speed and combat speed

Tsubasa's feat you linked is travel/short burst movement speed.

Sano did it too (Chapter 67, pages 49 and 50)

You can't consider this as stopping, tanking or blocking lol. He literally got sent flying by the shot and stayed down for a long time.

Ishizaki not only blocked Tiger Shot three times during the final against Toho

• (Chapter 80, page 69)
• (Chapter 80, pages 90-91)
• (Chapter 83, page 49)

• The first scene: So Ishizaki scales to a shot him and two other characters couldn't even fully block? Hmmm.
• The second scene: Ishizaki changed the ball's course, not block it completely. For Ishizaki to scale fully to the feat, he needed to block the ball into a complete stop.
• Third scene: Just like the first scene, there are multiple people blocking the shot so Ishizaki doesn't scale to the feat.

Ishizaki also stopped Schneider's Fire Shot, which is by far stronger than Tiger Shot (Chapter 107, pages 25-26)

Awh hell nah, how does this scene suggest "Yes Ishizaki's durability definitely scales to the Fire Shot"? The shot blew him away and broke his nose. He just changed the trajectory of the shot.

After a rough play, Pierre managed to block Tiger Shot (Chapter 101, pages 19 to 22)

This is a good example of a "shot blocking" scene, but Pierre isn't a low tier lol.

Bro, like, Wakabayashi clearly stated than Fire Shot was truly on fire, and Ishizaki got burnt by the air frictionated by Fire Shot. You can't simply deny it. It's explicitly Fire Manipualtion

Yet we never see Fire Shot truly being on fire lol. Also, as for Fire Manipulation; Scnhneider to my knowledge doesn't have any magical powers that lets him manipulate or create fire. The air gets frictioned because of the force Schneider's shot creates, in other words; by his raw power.

Is creating afterimages via raw speed Perception Manipulation? No. Is frictioning air with raw strength Fire Manipulation? Again, no.

No proof that shot touched wakabayashi's cap

What? We literally see in the scene that it did. It also cut Wakabayashi on his eyebrow which means that the shot grazed Wakabayshi's head; which in turn means that the shot made contact with the cap too.

Captain Tsubasa made its global launch in August 2020, and Takahashi annonuced the game in January.

That doesn't mean that he directly participated in the game btw. He's the creator of the manga the game's based off of. It only makes sense that he announces it lol.

As i said, that's why i listed as possibly. Even though, it's way faster than Tiger Shot (404 m/s)

It shouldn't even be a thing based on the points I brought up. It is way faster than Tiger Shot, but that doesn't alone support Mach 5.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Not really lol. Even average irl humans can easily survive Athlete lvl AP. Also like I said, even Takasugi by himself couldn't tank Hyuga's shot.

Following this, we should remove Isagi's street level durability, as he couldn't trap Kunigami shot.

At least Street level (Somewhat tanked a full power shot from Kunigami)

Tanking an attack is not the unique form of qualifying durability for a character. You should read our "Durability" page on the wiki before bringing an argument like that

Durability

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. Withstanding force consists of the measurement of the severity of damage from attacks. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

You can't consider this as stopping, tanking or blocking lol. He literally got sent flying by the shot and stayed down for a long time.

He survived the shot wdym? You are literally saying things like "he didn't trapped, so he doesn't scales to the shot, even though he survived the potency of the same". It wouldn't be durability if Sano get large injuries to a point he couldn't play anymore. It's like to say than a regular human can withstand being hitted by a car at 25mph

• The first scene: So Ishizaki scales to a shot him and two other characters couldn't even fully block? Hmmm.

Durability is not about just blocking

• The second scene: Ishizaki changed the ball's course, not block it completely. For Ishizaki to scale fully to the feat, he needed to block the ball into a complete stop.

Again, read Durability page. Tanking is not the unique form to scale durability

• Third scene: Just like the first scene, there are multiple people blocking the shot so Ishizaki doesn't scale to the feat.

Awh hell nah, how does this scene suggest "Yes Ishizaki's durability definitely scales to the Fire Shot"? The shot blew him away and broke his nose. He just changed the trajectory of the shot.

Again. He still survived to it. If he endured, his durability scales to Fire Shot. SIMPLE

Yet we never see Fire Shot truly being on fire lol. Also, as for Fire Manipulation; Scnhneider to my knowledge doesn't have any magical powers that lets him manipulate or create fire. The air gets frictioned because of the force Schneider's shot creates, in other words; by his raw power.

Is creating afterimages via raw speed Perception Manipulation? No. Is frictioning air with raw strength Fire Manipulation? Again, no.

We could list this at least as limited, but you're literally trying to go against to the manga. We have A LITERAL STATAMENT AND SCENE OF ISHIZAKI GETTING BURNT BY THE AIR FRICTIONATED BY THE BALL and you're still saying negating it. Wakabayashi mentioned of friction with the air being a possibility to the fire of the Fire Shot, with later Ishizaki confirming this hypotesis, getting bruises by this shot. You can't ignore the truth

That doesn't mean that he directly participated in the game btw. He's the creator of the manga the game's based off of. It only makes sense that he announces it lol.

He much probably supervisioned the game, as he says: "It is an action-packed, arcade football game, with many unique features"

Honestly i'm not arguing about Fire Shot with you anymore. We have multiple stataments for the ball being on fire but you're denying it intensily. Same with durability. You're clearly against this upgrade somewhat. Like, who comes with "he don't scales" while they survived multiple Tiger Shots without absurd injuries, thinking than trapping is a synonymous to durability?

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Just now i noticed. In the manga, the official media, is unknown if Takasugi stood up against Hyuga's shot (Chapter 10, page 27). Somehow in the 2018 anime
Still scales his dura to at least athlete level+ tho

 

[Dinozxd]

Following this, we should remove Isagi's street level durability, as he couldn't trap Kunigami shot.

That's a good idea, yes.

Tanking an attack is not the unique form of qualifying durability for a character. You should read our "Durability" page on the wiki before bringing an argument like that

You're probably refering to the "Withstanding Attacks" section, but that would require Ishizaki to take smaller damage than what other characters took from Hyuga's shot, and he didn't.

He survived the shot wdym? You are literally saying things like "he didn't trapped, so he doesn't scales to the shot, even though he survived the potency of the same". It wouldn't be durability if Sano get large injuries to a point he couldn't play anymore.

Durability is not about just blocking

Again, read Durability page. Tanking is not the unique form to scale durability
Again. He still survived to it. If he endured, his durability scales to Fire Shot. SIMPLE

If you have read the Durability page, you would know that surviving attacks are about endurance, not durability.

Surviving Attacks​

Many characters have been shown to survive attacks far above their durability, usually surviving with large injuries that others on their scale usually wouldn't survive. This is because of endurance, as they can endure a certain amount of pain regardless if the attack has burned them or sliced off limbs. This is not a durability factor, as this is a quality that is commonly attributed to willpower.

When you get damaged badly after taking an attack, it means that the attack broke through your durability. It's that simple really.

We could list this at least as limited, but you're literally trying to go against to the manga. We have A LITERAL STATAMENT AND SCENE OF ISHIZAKI GETTING BURNT BY THE AIR FRICTIONATED BY THE BALL and you're still saying negating it. Wakabayashi mentioned of friction with the air being a possibility to the fire of the Fire Shot, with later Ishizaki confirming this hypotesis, getting bruises by this shot. You can't ignore the truth

You're not even tackling my point. I'm tryna say that Schneider slightly burns the ball via raw strength. That's not Fire Manipulation.

He much probably supervisioned the game, as he says: "It is an action-packed, arcade football game, with many unique features"

What? How does that mean that he supervised the game exactly? He could've just asked the producer of the game what the game's about.

Honestly i'm not arguing about Fire Shot with you anymore. We have multiple stataments for the ball being on fire but you're denying it intensily.

We have 1 (one, uno, ichi,) statement about the ball being on fire btw. Other statements are from characters being burned from air friction, which is not fire. And still, my points aren't even about Fire Shot not being on fire. My points are:

1. Fire Shot doesn't scale to Mach 5.
2. Schneider doesn't have Fire Manipulation because he burns the ball with raw strength.

Same with durability. You're clearly against this upgrade somewhat. Like, who comes with "he don't scales" while they survived multiple Tiger Shots without absurd injuries, thinking than trapping is a synonymous to durability?

1. I'm not aganist an upgrade.
2. I already explained why they don't scale.
3. Casually trapping a Tiger Shot would definitely scale someone to Tiger Shot. That's literally a no-brainer. Idk how you can even argue aganist that. Also, I literally told you how a blocking feat that should scale the character's durability to the shot would look like (Pierre blocking Tiger Shot).

Just now i noticed. In the manga, the official media, is unknown if Takasugi stood up against Hyuga's shot (Chapter 10, page 27).

The 2018 anime gives more detail to the scene so it's usable. Takasugi fell right after taking Hyuga's shot, he doesn't scale lmao.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

You're probably refering to the "Withstanding Attacks" section, but that would require Ishizaki to take smaller damage than what other characters took from Hyuga's shot, and he didn't.

If you have read the Durability page, you would know that surviving attacks are about endurance, not durability.

"[...] usually surviving with LARGE INJURIES that others on their scale usually wouldn't survive. This is because of endurance, as they can endure a certain amount of pain regardless if the attack has burned them or sliced off limbs."

The max Ishizaki got with Tiger Shot was a bruise in his forehead. Same with Nankatsu supporting characters (such as Iwami, Oda, Nagano, etc). They didn't got injuries like holes in their stomach

When you get damaged badly after taking an attack, it means that the attack broke through your durability. It's that simple really.

Exactly. I know that . That's why they scale to Tiger Shot. They didn't got injuried like "oh God, i need a doctor imediatelly!". They not only managed to withstand Tiger Shot but they continued playing the match incessantly aiming for the victory. It wouldn't scale if they couldn't play anymore, which is not the case here

Same thing for Sano. He withstood Drive Shot and still was able to play the final of the match perfoming bicycle moves and stuff like that

What? How does that mean that he supervised the game exactly? He could've just asked the producer of the game what the game's about.

Much probably he looked to the game and said: "Oh, that's accurate with the manga :like:". In the tecmo series and ps2 games, we didn't had game descriptions or large histories compacted in a story mode (we had in NES games but not that large compared to Rise of New Champions)

We have 1 (one, uno, ichi,) statement about the ball being on fire btw. Other statements are from characters being burned from air friction, which is not fire. And still, my points aren't even about Fire Shot not being on fire.

One?

• (Chapter 96, page 29) - It wasn't even Wakabayashi this time, but the narrator states that the ball "really looks like a fireball". For sure a fireball isn't a slight fire
• We have Wakabayashi explaining about this shot still in Chapter 96
• Just corroborating with his explanation, Ishizaki and Jito got bruised by air friction of this shot, which was listed as possibility to the shot being on fire
• Corroborating even more, the same happened with Margus during Germany's training
• You said the 2018 anime is more accurate and give us more info, right? In this same anime we don't see the ball colliding with Wakabayashi's cap, but beinging disintegrated by Fire Shot's fire. So??
• Fire Shot description on Rise of New Champions is "A shot kicked with such a force that the friction sets the ball aflame"
• Assuming that all of this doesn't exist, how the heck does people looks to his shot and says "that's Fire Shot"? Every shot has a characteristic which consequently turns into the technique's name. Example is Matsuyama shot being called Eagle Shot, due to its long range and low course, similar to a eagle flying and preying his victim. Drive Shot is called like that because it describes an arc in the sky. Now what about Schneider's shot? It's just a straight line shot. What differs this shot to a regular bullet shot ?? What's the reason he says "Fire" after shooting or why he calls this shot as "Fire Shot"?
• When we talk about the art, shots like Counter Drive Shot or Tiger Shot, the ball is still "visible" (we can see the outline of the ball). Fire Shot's design is literally a flash of light.

Fire Shot doesn't scale to Mach 5.

I just listed it as possibility. That

Schneider doesn't have Fire Manipulation because he burns the ball with raw strength.

When we talk about elemental manipulation, just the simple act of generating some of these elements qualifies to its ability. For example, for water, air, ice, light, etc. If a character achieve the feat of creating one of these elements, regradeless of the way, it automatically falls under element manipulation

"The user can create, shape and manipulate air"
"The user can create, shape and manipulate visible light"
"The user can create, shape and manipulate earth and "Earthen" elements including most solid objects"

It doesn't matter if it was with raw strength. Schneider did it. That's it

1. I'm not aganist an upgrade.
2. I already explained why they don't scale.
3. Casually trapping a Tiger Shot would definitely scale someone to Tiger Shot. That's literally a no-brainer. Idk how you can even argue aganist that. Also, I literally told you how a blocking feat that should scale the character's durability to the shot would look like (Pierre blocking Tiger Shot).

Blocking is also a way to scale their durability. But withstand the attack and manage to continue withstanding these attacks while running on a freaking field of 100 meters of length is also valid too

I'm calling a thread moderator. I don't want to continue this anymore

 

[Dinozxd]

The max Ishizaki got with Tiger Shot was a bruise in his forehead. Same with Nankatsu supporting characters (such as Iwami, Oda, Nagano, etc). They didn't got injuries like holes in their stomach

While Ishizaki didn't get too much damaged after taking a Tiger Shot, he didn't tank the whole KE of the ball either. About the other guys, none of them took and withstand a Tiger Shot on their own, they blocked them with multiple people which disperses the force (at least in the CT verse logic).

Exactly. I know that . That's why they scale to Tiger Shot. They didn't got injuried like "oh God, i need a doctor imediatelly!". They not only managed to withstand Tiger Shot but they continued playing the match incessantly aiming for the victory. It wouldn't scale if they couldn't play anymore, which is not the case here

That is about endurance, not durability. Even though the attacks went through their durability, they withstood the pain and played on.

Much probably he looked to the game and said: "Oh, that's accurate with the manga :like:". In the tecmo series and ps2 games, we didn't had game descriptions or large histories compacted in a story mode (we had in NES games but not that large compared to Rise of New Champions)

This is just an assumption.

(Chapter 96, page 29) - It wasn't even Wakabayashi this time, but the narrator states that the ball "really looks like a fireball". For sure a fireball isn't a slight fire

Flowery language is a thing.

We have Wakabayashi explaining about this shot still in Chapter 96

This is the only statement usable for the ball truly being on fire and that's why I said there was one statement about this. The ball could've burned slightly inthe air, but scaling that to Mach 5 is crazy.

Just corroborating with his explanation, Ishizaki and Jito got bruised by air friction of this shot, which was listed as possibility to the shot being on fire

I lowkey looked more at this and found out that air friction can't bruise someone because it's simply too weak and spread out over a large area. What Ishizaki could've gotten damaged by could be a shockwave, which suggests at least Mach 1 speeds for Fire Shot, but Tiger Shot is already scaled above that.

You said the 2018 anime is more accurate and give us more info, right? In this same anime we don't see the ball colliding with Wakabayashi's cap, but beinging disintegrated by Fire Shot's fire. So??

We literally do. The ball sends the cap flying where it gets torn apart.

Assuming that all of this doesn't exist, how the heck does people looks to his shot and says "that's Fire Shot"? Every shot has a characteristic which consequently turns into the technique's name. Example is Matsuyama shot being called Eagle Shot, due to its long range and low course, similar to a eagle flying and preying his victim. Drive Shot is called like that because it describes an arc in the sky. Now what about Schneider's shot? It's just a straight line shot. What differs this shot to a regular bullet shot ?? What's the reason he says "Fire" after shooting or why he calls this shot as "Fire Shot"?

This is literally a nonsensical argument btw. With this logic, why does Hyuga call his shot Tiger Shot; because tigers come out of his shot?

When we talk about elemental manipulation, just the simple act of generating some of these elements qualifies to its ability. For example, for water, air, ice, light, etc. If a character achieve the feat of creating one of these elements, regradeless of the way, it automatically falls under element manipulation

"The user can create, shape and manipulate air"
"The user can create, shape and manipulate visible light"
"The user can create, shape and manipulate earth and "Earthen" elements including most solid objects"

I know what elemental manipulation is. Going by one of the examples you gave me, would creating wind pressure with a punch via raw strength (which is really common in fiction) qualify as air manipulation? Ask this to literally every mod and they'll tell you the answer lol.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

While Ishizaki didn't get too much damaged after taking a Tiger Shot, he didn't tank the whole KE of the ball either. About the other guys, none of them took and withstand a Tiger Shot on their own, they blocked them with multiple people which disperses the force (at least in the CT verse logic).

That is about endurance, not durability. Even though the attacks went through their durability, they withstood the pain and played on.

Show me a single frame that they had serious injuries. When did the attacks bypassed their durability while it didn't happened? They got no serious injuries.

This is just an assumption.

Still makes sense

Flowery language is a thing.

A thing which is not related to the statament. Sorry, but don't come with this bullshit. This is literally the same thing which Wakabayashi stated. How it is flowery language??

This is the only statement usable for the ball truly being on fire and that's why I said there was one statement about this. The ball could've burned slightly inthe air, but scaling that to Mach 5 is crazy.

We are not even arguing Mach 5 anymore. We are talking about Fire Shot being Fire Manipulation, something obvious that we are stil discussing because your claims are trying to against what is explictely shown in the manga

I lowkey looked more at this and found out that air friction can't bruise someone because it's simply too weak and spread out over a large area. What Ishizaki could've gotten damaged by could be a shockwave, which suggests at least Mach 1 speeds for Fire Shot, but Tiger Shot is already scaled above that.

So now your claims > What Ishizaki felt and said? You're trying to convince me than you know better than Ishizaki what hurt him

We literally do. The ball sends the cap flying where it gets torn apart.

This is literally a nonsensical argument btw. With this logic, why does Hyuga call his shot Tiger Shot; because tigers come out of his shot?

No, but bc he's refered as a tiger by coach kira and bc his nickname is "Fierce Tiger"?

I know what elemental manipulation is. Going by one of the examples you gave me, would creating wind pressure with a punch via raw strength (which is really common in fiction) qualify as air manipulation? Ask this to literally every mod and they'll tell you the answer lol.

Air manipulation is one thing. Fire manipulation is other thing

 

[Dinozxd]

I just saw your reply and frankly, this debate is probably going to give me aids judging by the fact that I'd need to explain the concept of durability, endurance, hax and physics while also having to read an insult every 2 sentences. I ain't doin allat. Get mods to review the thread. I'll just list my main disagreements with this for the mods to see:

• Low tiers shouldn't scale to shots from High and God tiers.
• Subsonic travel speed for Kids' Dream Arc is an outlier.
• Fire Shot does not scale to Mach 5 at all.
• Schneider's Fire Shot doesn't qualify for Fire Manipulation as he uses raw power to slightly burn the ball, which wouldn't be hax.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Obviously. With you denying every single statament, even though heavily explicited, is minimally annoying as hell to deal with this.

For Fire Shot... Like, being called as "fireball", i wouldn't call this a "slight fire". Plus the game states clearly for it being on true fire

"A shot kicked with such a force that the friction sets the ball aflame." - Fire Shot's description in Rise of New Champions

That's literally the same thing stated on the manga. Why it would be different??? Furthermore, the evolved version of this shot, The High Fire Shot says: "An unbeatable shot that makes use of practical experience to add greater flames to the Fire Shot", implying than Fire Shot always was on fire. This "greater flames" comes from now Schneider's leg being on fire too.

I was also not arguing more for Fire Shot being Mach 5 due to my doubts

About Tiger Shot and its scaling, i just said to you list a single time of them getting Haemoptysis, large injuries or every single form of bruise (except for Ishizaki bruise) for harming Tiger Shot potency. So???? Characters like Sano got knocked down for a while, but he didn't get any bruise from Drive Shot (which is equal to Tiger Shot). Even though this don't scale their tier fully, it scales at least their durability. We have multiple cases of people getting knocked down or survivng an attack and then getting their durability scaled to that level

Endou (Inazuma Eleven):

At least Small Building level (Able to withstand multiple attacks from Teikoku Gakuen head on)

Kid Goku:

Building level+ (Survived a plane crash that only knocked him out)

Isagi:

At least Street level (Somewhat tanked a full power shot from Kunigami)

What our wiki says, is than it doesn't scale if the character is almost dying or one part of his body is ripped out

Many characters have been shown to survive attacks far above their durability, usually >>>SURVIVING WITH LARGE INJURIES<<<

• Examples
  • Meruem barely surviving Netero's Poor Man's Rose with major wounds.
  • Trafalgar Law surviving Doflamingo's string cutting off his arm.

So why are you still insisting on trapping = dura??

About Subsonic speed, as i said, they cannot maintain this speed for long distance. It's not like Nitta who can do 100 meters in 11 seconds consistently. Soda's Razor Tackle could disapear from Tsubasa's view, same as he did with Meiwa players.

That's all. If you really quit this, i think you will not reply to this

 

[Dinozxd]

That's all. If you really quit this, i think you will not reply to this

I wasn't going to but this lowk pissed me off so yeah. I'm here again.

For Fire Shot... Like, being called as "fireball", i wouldn't call this a "slight fire".

The link is broken.

Plus the game states clearly for it being on true fire
That's literally the same thing stated on the manga. Why it would be different??? Furthermore, the evolved version of this shot, The High Fire Shot says: "An unbeatable shot that makes use of practical experience to add greater flames to the Fire Shot", implying than Fire Shot always was on fire. This "greater flames" comes from now Schneider's leg being on fire too.

You can't use stuff from the game description to argue for the manga. You can make a game profile if you want. I don't have to respond to these unless you can prove that the game is canon to the manga.

About Tiger Shot and its scaling, i just said to you list a single time of them getting Haemoptysis, large injuries or every single form of bruise (except for Ishizaki bruise) for harming Tiger Shot potency. So???? Characters like Sano got knocked down for a while, but he didn't get any bruise from Drive Shot (which is equal to Tiger Shot). Even though this don't scale their tier fully, it scales at least their durability.

Sano literally got dragged and sent flying by the shot. Let's assume that Sano's durability actually gets scaled to that and he gets matched aganist a different character in a versus thread. Your value would suggest that Sano can tank the energy equal to a Tiger Shot without much problem, while in reality; he got sent flying by that. Which also means that an attack (punch, kick etc.) equal to a Tiger Shot would also send him flying which makes his value confusing and unreliable for a versus thread.

At best, I'd maybe be okay with an "At most" scaling, as he didn't actually get knocked out either.

We have multiple cases of people getting knocked down or survivng an attack and then getting their durability scaled to that level

Idk about Inazuma Eleven so can't answer that one. Kid Goku getting scaled to a value he got knocked out to makes no sense and Isagi's scaling is also wrong. Idk what made you think I'd change my mind after that.

What our wiki says, is than it doesn't scale if the character is almost dying or one part of his body is ripped out

I answered this above.

So why are you still insisting on trapping = dura??

Trapping a Tiger Shot is dura. Blocking a Tiger Shot (making the shot come to a full stop) is dura. I never said only trapping could be dura. You gotta have some kind of reading comprehension oml

About Subsonic speed, as i said, they cannot maintain this speed for long distance. It's not like Nitta who can do 100 meters in 11 seconds consistently. Soda's Razor Tackle could disapear from Tsubasa's view, same as he did with Meiwa players.

After some thinking, Subsonic short burst movement speed wouldn't really be an outlier for Boys' Dream arc. Though, I don't think that the "dissapearing" thing actually happens. Tsubasa and Soda gets out of their opponents' field of vision real quickly, and they tackle the ball or run past people from outside of their vision. It's not like Loki just dashing past Isagi as that requires raw speed. Tsubasa's and Soda's way of maneuvering outta their opponents' vision still requires some degree of raw speed, they don't need to do it faster than their opponents' perception. Those feats being more of manipulation of their opponents' fov than being raw speed is actually far more likely as Soda dissapeared out of Tsubasa's vision, even though he should at the very least be comparable to Soda, if not way faster.

 

[Lilybitdun]

the stonewalling is crazy

 

[TartaChocholate]

Whew, this is quite a lot of work. Great job! Though if I had to offer some general advice, it's better to make gifs from the anime scenes used as justifications and upload in image hosting sites the manga pages. This is because in case something happens to the linked vids or the manga sites the justifications won't be lost.

A minor thing I was thinking, but I could be wrong, but I recall when Tsubasa had his first match against Carlos Santana, I think, he was able not only he was able to imitate a the same feint he had used earlier (where Santana turned his back against Tsubasa and hid the ball as he made an overhead pass to himself), he actually used it to discover how Santana would counter his own maneuver, which actually worked.

I also think that Tsubasa's painkillers not working isn't so much an ability on Kojiro's part as much as Tsubasa straining himself too much in the match. Not only the shoulder injury was pretty nasty IIRC, the match against Kojiro's team kept getting more and more intense and Tsubasa kept pushing himself.

 

[Dinozxd]

the stonewalling is crazy

Same guy who agreed with Mach 5 Fire Shot btw

A minor thing I was thinking, but I could be wrong, but I recall when Tsubasa had his first match against Carlos Santana, I think, he was able not only he was able to imitate a the same feint he had used earlier (where Santana turned his back against Tsubasa and hid the ball as he made an overhead pass to himself), he actually used it to discover how Santana would counter his own maneuver, which actually worked.

This would be both a Technique Mimicry and a skill feat. Also, the move Santana uses is called the Santana Turn.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Same guy who agreed with Mach 5 Fire Shot btw

Just cause I believe in something you don't doesn't suddenly make everything I say invalid lol
Being able to ignite something on fire is textbook fire manipulation, being done via non-supernatural means doesn't suddenly invalidate (is a flamethrower suddenly not fire manipulation)

The justification of something being launched fast to ignite being mach 5 is something that's already been accepted for other verses

 

[Dinozxd]

Just cause I believe in something you don't doesn't suddenly make everything I say invalid lol

I never said that. Just pointed out the irony.

Being able to ignite something on fire is textbook fire manipulation, being done via non-supernatural means doesn't suddenly invalidate

Being able to set something on fire with pure strength is supernatural lmao. I never argued that Fire Shot was non-supernatural. The definition of hax are literally abilities that don't require AP or Durability to perform (also abilities that bypass durability but that's irrelevant to this discussion so whatever). Schneider can't use some kind of magical power to light the ball on fire, he has to hit it hard enough to do it. That's AP, not hax.

(is a flamethrower suddenly not fire manipulation)

Completely irrelevant.

The justification of something being launched fast to ignite being mach 5 is something that's already been accepted for other verses

It's literally wrong and I proved it. Unless a character throws or launches a human so fast the human gets turned into ashes, it doesn't scale the character to Mach 5 in any way.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Sano literally got dragged and sent flying by the shot. Let's assume that Sano's durability actually gets scaled to that and he gets matched aganist a different character in a versus thread. Your value would suggest that Sano can tank the energy equal to a Tiger Shot without much problem, while in reality; he got sent flying by that. Which also means that an attack (punch, kick etc.) equal to a Tiger Shot would also send him flying which makes his value confusing and unreliable for a versus thread.

At best, I'd maybe be okay with an "At most" scaling, as he didn't actually get knocked out either.

Hm... Acceptable

After some thinking, Subsonic short burst movement speed wouldn't really be an outlier for Boys' Dream arc. Though, I don't think that the "dissapearing" thing actually happens. Tsubasa and Soda gets out of their opponents' field of vision real quickly, and they tackle the ball or run past people from outside of their vision. It's not like Loki just dashing past Isagi as that requires raw speed. Tsubasa's and Soda's way of maneuvering outta their opponents' vision still requires some degree of raw speed, they don't need to do it faster than their opponents' perception. Those feats being more of manipulation of their opponents' fov than being raw speed is actually far more likely as Soda dissapeared out of Tsubasa's vision, even though he should at the very least be comparable to Soda, if not way faster.

If you notice, the players mentioned keep their eyes on they. Tsubasa moments before being hitted by Soda's Razor Tackle said than Soda vanished. Same with Tsubasa vs Sawaki and Hori. He simply disapeared even though they maintained their eyes glued on him. No proof this is perception manipulation

I never said that. Just pointed out the irony.

Being able to set something on fire with pure strength is supernatural lmao. I never argued that Fire Shot was non-supernatural. The definition of hax are literally abilities that don't require AP or Durability to perform (also abilities that bypass durability but that's irrelevant to this discussion so whatever). Schneider can't use some kind of magical power to light the ball on fire, he has to hit it hard enough to do it. That's AP, not hax.

Since when? Show me where is stated than set something in fire via raw power is not hax. Literally there are multiple cases of profiles giving abilities to characters because of their strength

Saitama:

• Shockwave Creation (Can create wind pressure of unimaginable power with his attacks)

Zoro:

• Air Manipulation (Can throw ranged slashes and tornadoes, composed of highly pressurized air) [Case similar to Schneider btw]

Sonic (Sonic X):

• Limited Water Manipulation (Can produce whirlpools with his speed)

Gouenji:

• Wind Manipulation (His movements and hissatsu are able to easily conjure strong gusts of wind)

This list was unnecessary, but i needed to do it so you can see than there's no problem of Schneider having Fire Manipulation. And as i said and you possibly didn't read or simply ignored, control a element is NOT the unique way of qualifying elemental manipulation. Creating or trigerring a tornado (example) qualifies to Air/Wind manipulation, and not only magically controling air just like Aang do

 

[Dinozxd]

If you notice, the players mentioned keep their eyes on they. Tsubasa moments before being hitted by Soda's Razor Tackle said than Soda vanished. Same with Tsubasa vs Sawaki and Hori. He simply disapeared even though they maintained their eyes glued on him. No proof this is perception manipulation

I didn't say that it's perception manipulation. I also never said Tsubasa and the other guys took their eyes of Soda or Tsubasa. I just said that they simply got outta their opponents' fov with high speed. That doesn't necessarily require Subsonic speed.

Since when? Show me where is stated than set something in fire via raw power is not hax.

Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant.

The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier,

Quoted from the hax page.

This list was unnecessary, but i needed to do it so you can see than there's no problem of Schneider having Fire Manipulation. And as i said and you possibly didn't read or simply ignored, control a element is NOT the unique way of qualifying elemental manipulation. Creating or trigerring a tornado (example) qualifies to Air/Wind manipulation, and not only magically controling air just like Aang do

Like I said, I don't agree with any of the abilities you listed there.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

I didn't say that it's perception manipulation. I also never said Tsubasa and the other guys took their eyes of Soda or Tsubasa. I just said that they simply got outta their opponents' fov with high speed. That doesn't necessarily require Subsonic speed.

Uh... Bruh?

You literally said: "Those feats being more of manipulation of their opponents' fov than being raw speed is actually far more likely as Soda dissapeared out of Tsubasa's vision, even though he should at the very least be comparable to Soda, if not way faster."

It need bruh. disapearing from human eye is a subsonic feat. It doesn't matter if he went left or right. He moved fast enough to make Tsubasa have no time to react or even percieve his tackle. Then im having a compression issue now

Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant.

The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier,

This absolutely doesn't mean every single power needs to be independent of the user's ap. If yes, what is the function of explosion manipulation then? This phrase just refers to haxes who can bypass conventional durability (mind manipulation, energy manipulation and etc). Hax is just a term to abilities that can take advantage in certain situation. Not because Schneider fire manip is magical than automatically he will not have fire manip. Not every ability/power is a hax in all of the cases

Like I said, I don't agree with any of the abilities you listed there.

So? What about you open a crt for every abilitiy i listed since you disagree with it? Let's see what others thinks about it. Because, why just Schneider will not have fire manip. via raw power while a bunch of characters has abilities for the same reason?

 

[Dinozxd]

You literally said: "Those feats being more of manipulation of their opponents' fov than being raw speed is actually far more likely as Soda dissapeared out of Tsubasa's vision, even though he should at the very least be comparable to Soda, if not way faster."

Manipulation of human perception isn't strictly a supernatural thing. The definition of the word "manipulate" is:

control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly or unscrupulously.

It need bruh. disapearing from human eye is a subsonic feat. It doesn't matter if he went left or right. He moved fast enough to make Tsubasa have no time to react or even percieve his tackle. Then im having a compression issue now

What Tsubasa and Soda does is essentially taking their opponents' fov into account and cleverly evading it without having to use raw speed. Tsubasa (in the anime at least) evades marking of other players by feinting with an off the ball movement and circling to their blindspot. Soda purposefully stays at the edge of Tsubasa's fov, circles back and tackles them from the other side. Both of these feats don't necesserily require raw speed like Loki's feat I gave as an example.

This absolutely doesn't mean every single power needs to be independent of the user's ap.

Literally going aganist the definition.

If yes, what is the function of explosion manipulation then?

That's actually a really good example. Let's take Bakugo as an example. While the explosions Bakugo creates have AP, he doesn't need AP to create the explosions. That's why his explosion manip is hax. Another example could be characters with Ice Manipulation, such as Todoroki and Esdeath. While their ice creation feats can be calculated for AP, they don't need AP to create the ice which fits the definition of hax.

Schneider needs AP to light the ball on fire, as the whole reason the ball catches on fire in the first place is him kicking the ball with his raw strength which causes the ball to friction in the air.

This phrase just refers to haxes who can bypass conventional durability (mind manipulation, energy manipulation and etc).

The part I bolded doesn't refer to that.

So? What about you open a crt for every abilitiy i listed since you disagree with it?

Your CRT haven't gotten accepted yet.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

What Tsubasa and Soda does is essentially taking their opponents' fov into account and cleverly evading it without having to use raw speed. Tsubasa (in the anime at least) evades marking of other players by feinting with an off the ball movement and circling to their blindspot. Soda purposefully stays at the edge of Tsubasa's fov, circles back and tackles them from the other side. Both of these feats don't necesserily require raw speed like Loki's feat I gave as an example.

Makes sense

That's actually a really good example. Let's take Bakugo as an example. While the explosions Bakugo creates have AP, he doesn't need AP to create the explosions. That's why his explosion manip is hax. Another example could be characters with Ice Manipulation, such as Todoroki and Esdeath. While their ice creation feats can be calculated for AP, they don't need AP to create the ice which fits the definition of hax.

Schneider needs AP to light the ball on fire, as the whole reason the ball catches on fire in the first place is him kicking the ball with his raw strength which causes the ball to friction in the air.

I understood your point, but Schneider can still use the fire from his shot to something. That's why i said about the possibility of listing it as "Limited". Even if it's not needed to create something via AP, they can still use this "ability" at their favor. Zoro (same from the example i gave) can create ranged slashes and tornadoes via air compression by using his swords. He does it by raw strength, but, above all, he can use the air at his favor, even if it is the unique thing he can do with the wind

And, like, why does all of these abilites that i listed as example should be incorrect, just because you disagreed with it, even if we take account all of these were accepted in a CRT (by following vsbw logic to create a page)?

The part I bolded doesn't refer to that.

The phrase starts with "The most common hax [...]". It's implicitly not every single existent hax

Your CRT haven't gotten accepted yet.

I meant, as you disagree, you should open a CRT to remove the abilities i listed as example for see what others think. I literally saw a lot of profiles going against your idea and no one talking about it.

 

[Dinozxd]

I understood your point, but Schneider can still use the fire from his shot to something. That's why i said about the possibility of listing it as "Limited".

Limited Fire Manip would be a fine middle ground.

And, like, why does all of these abilites that i listed as example should be incorrect, just because you disagreed with it, even if we take account all of these were accepted in a CRT (by following vsbw logic to create a page)?

Not every addition that gets accepted is correct, especially takink into account that most of the profiles you listed were profiles that have existed since the start of time lol.

The phrase starts with "The most common hax [...]". It's implicitly not every single existent hax

True but Fire Manip is a pretty common hax yk.

I meant, as you disagree, you should open a CRT to remove the abilities i listed as example for see what others think. I literally saw a lot of profiles going against your idea and no one talking about it.

I don't scale any of those verses so I don't wanna deal with em. I only make CRTs about verses I'm knowledgable on or have interest in.

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Fine then.
The unique thing i need to review is 9-B scaling to the characters in Junior Youth arc, as i remember Tsubasa and Hyuga adapted their shots into passes, which is strong as their shots (i remember a panel where Matsuyama's Eagle Pass is stated to be equally strong to his shot)

 

[David_Is_Goat]

As no staff appeared here yet, just wanted to show the page draft for Tsubasa

Tsubasa Ozora (Manga) - Page Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Bump again.
Just wanted to show something. I think im doing something wrong but here is it

• Passes Scaling: During Japan's play against Mexico, when Matsuyama's Eagle Pass was blocked by a mexican defender (World Youth hen, Chapter 52, pages 33-34), it's said than his pass is strong as a shot, which means shots that were adapted into passes has equal potency, or even higher, which is the case of Drive Pass (Golden-23 arc, Chapter 0, page 35). So, being capable of recieve, trap and even redirect is a way to scale to their shots. For example, Tsubasa adapted his Drive Shot into a Drive Pass, which Misaki could redirect it (ct manga, chapter 101), therefore Misaki should scale to at least Wall level

I pretend to use this in the verse page. I'm just using some stataments from the next arcs, not the full scaling of it

This is important cuz we have multiple cases of players redirecting shots, such as Misaki feat listed above, Bayern Munich's Dragon's Roar (Their circulating shot, combining Levin Shot, Superspeed Kickback Cannon and Fire Shot), Ryan Ortiz redirecting Blake Shot in order to create a perfect course for it (Justice Blake Shot), etc

 

[David_Is_Goat]

Bump (this crt is dead lol)