Captain Cold rework (+ additions)

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Captain Cold's page is an utter travesty and is missing literally dozens of his powers, including his most famous abilities. To combat this, I made a reworked version of his page in my sandbox. All powers and feats are sourced, so hopefully that should answer any questions for why I included them, but if not, let me know and I'll expand on them.

Here is the rewritten page.

Quick edit: All versions of Captain Cold should have Analytical Prediction. It's how he fights speedsters reliably.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

bymp

 

[Armorchompy]

keys aren't listed, seems good otherwise

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Fixed.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Bump

 

[Confluctor]

Agreed

 

[Armorchompy]

Considering he has only one resistance I think that should be fine to just put in the "by himself" category, but that's more of a personal thing

 

[DarlingAurora]

I agree with this.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Everything looks good tho I will say that “Absolute Zero (As seen here[10]” is missing the second ).

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I fixed all the broken bracket stuff I could find. I have a bad habit of leaving those..

 

[PsychoWarper]

Nice, then yeah should be good then.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Since Captain Cold's page is currently so poor and becase the rework has no resistance so far, I'l apply it in about an hour unless anyone objjects.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me as well. Should I close this thread?

 

[Greenshifter]

Cold’s combat speed and reactions should be at least speed of light https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/103530/2248766-27.jpg

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

No. He fights Flash because he's good-ish at predicting his movements, locations, and because he can uses an AoE speed-lowering attack (and even then usually loses because if he beats Flash, he could pretty easily kill him) His page actually lists multiple instances of how he 'fights' Flash (#1, 2, 3, 4). As you can see, he mostly fires where he thinks Flash will be and often just fires randomly, as illustrated by this cover. Non-canon yes, but it still shows that he doesn't fight Flash because he's comparable in speed.

That said, he m i g h t be Massively Hypersonic given how Batman was sincerely worried that he could easily defeat Catwoman in one of their (surprisingly plentiful) outings together, so take from that what you will.

Edit: Also that is from a storyline where he was hyping himself up a lot in order to scare the dude who killed his sister.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense to me. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Greenshifter]

No. He fights Flash because he's good-ish at predicting his movements, locations, and because he can uses an AoE speed-lowering attack (and even then usually loses because if he beats Flash, he could pretty easily kill him) His page actually lists multiple instances of how he 'fights' Flash (#1, 2, 3, 4). As you can see, he mostly fires where he thinks Flash will be and often just fires randomly, as illustrated by this cover. Non-canon yes, but it still shows that he doesn't fight Flash because he's comparable in speed.

Well he obviously doesn’t scale to Flash’s full speed. Hence why the SoL speed + predictions come in handy. For him to even think while the Flash is fighting him, he’d need to be somewhat relative to his casual speed in order to do literally anything. I don’t know when the Cold Field is introduced but sometimes he needs to actively use that by shooting a beam first.

Edit: Also that is from a storyline where he was hyping himself up a lot in order to scare the dude who killed his sister.

He wasn’t “hyping himself up though”, he was calmly telling the boss that he’d massively outspeed everyone in the room and the boss believed him. As a matter of fact, because of his sister being killed he’d definitely be motivated to go all out and do exactly what he described he would.

Hence why I’d only scale him to the SoL, since that’s based on what he perceives to be a casual Flash which he can react to. Also it makes sense for him to be able to react to his fellow Rogues’ attacks such as Weather Wizard’s lightning and Mirror Master’s lightspeed beams.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm sorry but you do realize that you're suggesting that this non-powered, middle aged scientist is hundreds of times faster than Batman? Like, contextually, that makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Armorchompy also makes sense. He is a threat to Flash because of plot convenience, not due to power level.

 

[Confluctor]

Also the fact that the story itself doesn't treat Wally at being light speed most of the time anyway. They consider it much much much lower. So the SOL stuff don't make sense.

 

[Greenshifter]

I'm sorry but you do realize that you're suggesting that this non-powered, middle aged scientist is hundreds of times faster than Batman? Like, contextually, that makes absolutely no sense.

Yes, he said so himself to a Batman villain if I’m not mistaken. Also it’s not like I agree with Batman’s speed rating. You’re also acting as if he’s a regular human, while his current stats don’t support that.

Armorchompy also makes sense. He is a threat to Flash because of plot convenience, not due to power level.

I mean he’s a threat due to his hax, reactions and Flash holding back to like lightspeed.

Also the fact that the story itself doesn't treat Wally at being light speed most of the time anyway. They consider it much much much lower. So the SOL stuff don't make sense.

That depends from story to story mate. Lightspeed Flash when facing Cold is a pretty good and consistent intermediary option between his lower showings and his higher showings.

 

[Confluctor]

Can you send at least 10/15 different instances where cold takes on a Flash and the story treats it beyond light speed.

 

[Greenshifter]

Can you send at least 10/15 different instances where cold takes on a Flash and the story treats it beyond light speed.

Explicitly, or by scaling to people who we treat as MFTL+?

Cause I did mean in relation to who or what else the Flash has to face in the same comic.

 

[Confluctor]

I know which is why I pointed out that some stories don't treat Wally and co as fast as they actually are...

 

[Greenshifter]

I know which is why I pointed out that some stories don't treat Wally and co as fast as they actually are...

You know what? Anyways SoL isn’t how fast Wally actually is, so I’m obviously aware of that. It’s just that’s it is a good estimate of what speed Flash is holding back to, to fight Cold due stuff like Flash dodging Mirror Master’s gun (or Weather Wizard’s lightning) and then getting tagged by a beam from Cold for instance.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, he said so himself to a Batman villain if I’m not mistaken.

Scans?

Also it’s not like I agree with Batman’s speed rating. You’re also acting as if he’s a regular human, while his current stats don’t support that.

By DC standards he is a normal human yes. Also a casual Flash is >>>>>>>>>>> Batman anyway so it's not like the rating matters to this, you're just ignoring context.

 

[Greenshifter]

Scans?

The one I posted.

By DC standards he is a normal human yes. Also a casual Flash is >>>>>>>>>>> Batman anyway so it's not like the rating matters to this, you're just ignoring context.

Here’s the thing though, Captain Cold has always been a Flash villain and Ant said before that we shouldn’t scale Batman to Cold’s feats because they have different comic lines. So you’re ignoring context here because Captain Cold will have obviously grown to match a casual Flash over the years, making a comparison to Batman as another “DC Superhuman” null and void.

Also in Rebirth a casual Thawne fought Batman so yeah… although I’m not gonna involve myself in Batman scaling to say what his most consistent speed is, all I know is that Cap Cold isn’t limited by Batsy’s speed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think that this part

Wall level (Took hits from Manhunter, though he clearly wasn't trying to hard[27][28])

Shouldn't be used. MMH not killing Cold is not a durability feat. Its just MMH not killing Cold.

Also is there a reason why freezing Kid Devil is important enough to be noted? Like is he really hot or something?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Sorry if Necro, Mirror Master once said that fighting anyone who isn't a flash is like they're in slow motion. Cap Cold can keep up with Evan

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also, Flash got upgraded, so Pre Crisis Snart should get 2-C for summons

Captain Cold (Pre-Crisis)

Once just a run-of-the-mill thief, Len Snart managed to get his hands on the 'Cold Gun', a piece of strange, futuristic technology capable of freezing seemingly anything it fired at, from people to buildings, from energy constructs to New Gods. With weapon in tole, Snart donned the identity of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

Also, what do the rest of you think about Lunge's suggestions?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Considering there are a handful of instances of Captain Cold and co getting getting blitzed by Batman characters (two of which are actually on his page), no. That quote likely means that they don't have to do as mch planning and analysis, which is how they fight Flash.

And no. Giving everyone in Pre-Crisis 2-C because of a feat the strongest people in the verse performed is a no-go. Flash varies and holds back; even though he is willing to kill unlie most other heroes, it's still an ultimate last-resort and thus, his 2-C should only scale to people who push him to his absolute limits, like Reverse Flash.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ameilia. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Considering there are a handful of instances of Captain Cold and co getting getting blitzed by Batman characters (two of which are actually on his page), no. That quote likely means that they don't have to do as mch planning and analysis, which is how they fight Flash.

And no. Giving everyone in Pre-Crisis 2-C because of a feat the strongest people in the verse performed is a no-go. Flash varies and holds back; even though he is willing to kill unlie most other heroes, it's still an ultimate last-resort and thus, his 2-C should only scale to people who push him to his absolute limits, like Reverse Flash.

I mean, Flash was large country, Snart scaled to Flash personally via one of his summons. Flash got upgraded. Flash's no longer large country. If Flash being upgraded means Snart no longer scales to him with that specific attack for some reasons, there's no reason for Snart to have a large country key. And the Rogues pretty consistently keep up with other street tiers.

 

[Confluctor]

Why was his base tier 6 key removed in the first place?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm gonna do a revision for mid end characters like Cold tomorrow I guess to where to put them at. Most people seem to think 5-B is fine scaling off of minor Green Lanterns.

This would also affect Black Hand, I believe.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you very much for helping out. Please inform me after you have created the thread.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I'm gonna do a revision for mid end characters like Cold tomorrow I guess to where to put them at. Most people seem to think 5-B is fine scaling off of minor Green Lanterns.

This would also affect Black Hand, I believe.

Amelia, would you mind showing me when was Cold blitzed? Cause from what I've seen, Rogues can keep up with street tiers alright (some of the Rogues are probably herald though). Also, keep in mind that Cold's summons didn't match Barry in power, they damaged him. You can't exactly hold dura back. Maybe pre crisis Barry oughta be wall or something while still, low multi while moving in dura, just like his post crisis counterpart

 

[Armorchompy]

Amelia, would you mind showing me when was Cold blitzed? Cause from what I've seen, Rogues can keep up with street tiers alright (some of the Rogues are probably herald though)

"Would you mind showing me" and "from what I've seen" in the same sentence show one hell of a double standard here mate.

Also, keep in mind that Cold's summons didn't match Barry in power, they damaged him. You can't exactly hold dura back.

That counterargument would apply to literally all of our "holding back" ratings for Comic Book characters, we just assume their durability goes down with their AP somehow, for the sake of making the scaling a little more sane.