Cal's hax dilemma

[Dragonmasterxyz]

A major issue with this and you is that you are looking into this from a Vs Battle standpoint. A plot does not require their characters to use their haxes off the bat.

Let me go into my own personal works. Xros Revolution. The characters are haxed yes. They have a ton of resistances, yes. They'd be considered OP, yes. Does that matter? No. Every character has a way to be defeated. Especially OP villains. My main villain Zavin is a huge example of this. Throughout the series he has been seen as this OP villain. And guess what he stays like that. Only reason he was defeated is because an equally OP character defeated him barely by getting the edge over him. It's called balance.

Back to Digimon. Lucemon was OP when he arrived, how to fix that? They made Susanoomon to counter him. Overly haxed villains usually win due to them having an overly haxed MC to balance them out.

Or you also have Mcguffins as well. Everyone should be familiar with these. Once again, I will go in more detail later. And I will also detail characterization.

 

[The_Everlasting]

There's also this to consider: Having a character use their most broken thing at every opportunity, especially if they're the protagonist, will get boring real fast.

Ben Tennyson, for instance, gains full control over Alien X after the events of Universe vs. Tennyso. This thing that can casually recreate universes, grow to the size of galaxies, and generally just do whatever the hell they want.

But does he use it in every episode? No, of course he doesn't, because that would not only make every fight end in seconds, but it would make the entire series seem like a chore if Ben can literally just change into Alien X, blink, and win.

Of course this will seem odd from a perspective like this, but to the average viewer, they probably won't think much of it, and even if they do, they'll probably (Hopefully) understand why it's the case: because it would make the entire series boring at best and a complete chore to watch.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

-Snip-

Couldn't agree more. At first I really wanted to write a Wizard character who had this complete arsenal of magic since I thought 'all powerful' Wizards were really cool (still do, but that's a different story). He could manipulate weather, temperature, gravity, everything. Then I realized that it clashed heavily with his character arc and was generally rather dull to write for, so I opted to make him a Telepath exclusively with some Mental/Perception Manipulation powers. Been much more fun to write for ever since.

I guess my advice is to come up with some interesting, fun to write power and go all the way with it. For example, I have a character who can ignore perspective. He's able to grab distant objects as if they were like pebbles and such. Kind of like this scene from Ed Edd n Eddy. A few unique, memorable powers goes a further way then a bajillion OP but boring powers.

 

[Promestein]

This is really just summed up well by focusing on the story and not the hax.

I only bring hax into play when it's convenient and doesn't **** things up. The more grounded abilities of a character are more interesting and easier to write, anyways.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean, not to be rude Cal, but in every thread with one of your character in, you end up pulling an argument like "Mario time travels and kills them in the past", or "Master Hand summons infinite captain falcons and wins". Yet most of those verses have good stories anyway, no?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

And there is the simple concept of characterization. If a character is interesting well developed (Assuming they need development in the first place. Not all characters need it and sometimes development can make a character worse instead of better) no matter their abilities they will be liked. You have to remember these abilities are only a plus. These walls of text are an irrelevant bonus that have nothing to do with the character's goals. They're cool and all, but what of the character that uses them? Are they some boring overpowered mess that just exists to be overpowered? Or are they a likable overpowered mess who exists to be a all around good and interesting character?

And does a character HAVE to use all their hax in a fight? No they don't. My own OC's don't just spam their hax every fight. They use it when they need to. You don't see Reinhard throwing Longinuslanzer every 5 seconds do you? You don't see Alphamon spamming Alpha Inforce constantly either. We don't see Bayonetta robbing people of their souls or Dante Quicksilvering every second they can. We don't see Erza using Nakagami Starlight or Link stopping time every second they get a chance. Why? Because that's boring. Like not fun in the slightest.

My whole situation with this has been summed up countless times on FC/OC. Hax is fine. Wanna overload a character with hax? Go ahead, but those character better at least show a good attempt at making them interesting. Writers aren't really thinking of "Oh my character must be the most OP", writers are thinking about how to make their story and characters interesting, or when discussing games, how to make it fun. This is why franchises like Masadaverse, Digimon, SMT, Saint Seiya, Pokemon, Warhammer 40K, Cthulu Mythos etc are so successful despite having (by our standards) some of the most "OP characters in fiction." (snrk) They aren't just known for how OP they are. (If at all) They are known for how well written and interesting they are.

Does this help?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

You don't see Alphamon spamming Alpha Inforce constantly either.

Yeah, Digimon almost never actually use their hax. I think the only time Jesmon used O.S. Generics was in Digimon Adventure TRI Abriged of all things

Characterization far, far outweighs hax in actually making stuff interesting. To this day, Charlie Brown is probably my favorite character in any medium because of how well he's characterized and how solid his character develoment is. Of course he lacks the ability to manipulate the very concept of crap and is barely strong enough to play Junior League Baseball, but that doesn't matter.

 

[Schnee_One]

I mean, not to be rude Cal, but in every thread with one of your character in, you end up pulling an argument like "Mario time travels and kills them in the past", or "Master Hand summons infinite captain falcons and wins". Yet most of those verses have good stories anyway, no?

SSB has a good story?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Storywise, I think it is almost always a very bad idea to give a character hax because doing so harms the character and story more than it enriches them. If a character has some hax card up their sleeve but rarely uses it, that prevents fights from getting short and boring, sure. But then that character is made into an idiot for not just taking the safe route and spamming the hax at every turn, and fights get frustrating because they don't just end it. The obvious solution is to just introduce some sort of drawback to the hax, but at that point, you've made it clear that the hax is there to prevent writing the haxxed guy into a corner.

A lot of series with lots of hax are very bizzare in that the story must grind to a complete halt just so characters can spout exposition about how some guy can do some thing that has no real bearing on events and doesn't develop anyone's character. How many times have we seen a fight scene in which someone pulls an ability out of nowhere, some character goes "WHAT?!" or "IMPOSSIBLE!" and then the scene wastes time to talk about how some ability works and give the audience enough time to remember that there's something better to do? This, in turn, hurts characterization because no human being starts spouting exposition at random. Next time you watch a series with a lot of hax, pay close attention to the dialogue and ask "Would a real person in that situation talk like that?"

Ulitimately, hax falls into a broader writing category: "What can a character do?" If a character is too capable of certain things, we end up asking why the idiot doesn't just wrap everything up. Not capable enough, and we ask how his idiotic oppostion hasn't wrapped everything up. And like any other writing device, if things are too complicated or poorly executed either way, we ask why time is being wasted on this when there are more streamlined alternatives to write things.

I really don't care for the plots of most series with lots of hax (sans Doctor Who, but even then I almost always can't help but wonder why the Doc doesn't just do some time travelling and stuff to deal with half the stuff in his way most of the time, pacifist or no), so they have to fall back on other strengths. Most video games have plots that are hurt by hax (why doesn't Bowser just turn Mario into a brick?) but have good enough gameplay and atmosphere to make you care about the game in spite of the plot. Haxxed stories of most other mediums rely on strong characterization (although I mentioned earlier how hax can hurt that), technical prowess, or atmosphere.

Bottom line of my opinion: hax usually does more harm than good to a story, characters, and certain scenes, but, while they can't fix such a problem, other qualities of the work can make this less of an issue if executed well. It's aaaaall in the execution/presentation.

@Gargoyle One

Solid Snake teams up with Meta Knight. 'Nuff said. jk

 

[Schnee_One]

Ah shit! Doctor Freeman in the house!

Did you see the DMC stuff?

 

[PaChi2]

"How many times have we seen a fight scene in which someone pulls an ability out of nowhere, some character goes "WHAT?!" or "IMPOSSIBLE!" and then the scene wastes time to talk about how some ability works and give the audience enough time to remember that there's something better to do?"

Bleach's last arc in a nutshell.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You guys are right that I'm looking at everything at a VSBW standpoint. Gonna point that out.

@Saik. I mean, MH is basically in the SSE just to get stomped by the haxless Tabuu, and didn't appear in-person until then, with his only appearance prior just pointing at Ganondorf. We don't even fight him. And when we do in Classic Modes, it's said that he's keeping his power hidden, and when he uses those haxes, it's not even to fight him, but to create a challenge/stadium match/special match. Mario's time travel is from his ("canon") cameo at the very end of Yoshi's New Island.

I understand that's not your point, but I'm a man of semantics (who also likes justifying himself, even if it's just a little)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That's the first thing you have to do then. Vs Battles is not what the series is going for.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If you want a more direct example, I got my good old white faced pal. Despite the fact that this character is 99% hax (Only ever attacking directly ONCE, and it was held back anyway), the game still manages to have an interesting plot. Mostly because it makes the conflicts more thought out and more mental than a simple brawl.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I do want more answers like that, @Saik and everyone else who mentioned concepts and story and character. My dilemma is about such a brawl though. I could give Rachel Green from Friends the hax of Lucemon, Lavos, White Face, and 682 combined, and easily not have it derive from any of the episodes by having her not use them because of the nature of the series.

And how could you write a main and prevalent character--or better yet, characters--with a ton of hax without doing these things?

• Devolving into stereotypes (like being a Saitama expy)
• Making the fights between them interesting without being noticeable PIS
• Taking too much time to explain the ability.

And other things that would make a series not dip in quality.

 

[Schnee_One]

Good. Writing.

It's this simple.

Through your own lore you can find and write away around said hax and abilities, which can also develop the characters as smart and make them more likeable.

Adding tons of hax can make a story and characters more interesting if done right, again, Dies Irae

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

1) Give them good characterization. Balance the hax between Main cast and main villain.

2) PIS is just natural. Even in haxless versions. But answer, once again, balance.

3) Who said each time you see a new ability, you have to go through an entire scene detailing it. "Ooh he hit him with that move, what was that?" "He hit him with an attack that damages you conceptually." Simple as that.

To be blunt, good writing.

 

[Schnee_One]

3) Is perfectly true, do I need to explain a time stop or Mind Manipulation?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Can't ya just make character bios explaining powers opposed to taking time away from the narrative to explain.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Many abilities can be explained is a sentence or two. Heck, databooks exist for a reason as well.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Another idea: Give the powers some kind of interesting reasoning

To use DI again

Don't just have it "this character can transform into lightning, the end"

Have it "this characer wants to be the light bringing hope and guidance to their comrades, and that desire manifests itself as literally becoming lightning"

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

so basically motive to bring out their powers no? like "i don't want touch = Faster than u"

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Less a motive, more an interesting character attribute that reflects itself in the power.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

A good motive can help too, more so for abilities rather than powers though. I.E "I want to become a great explorer to discover the secrets of Tiwanaku and better mankind" or something.

 

[SITHISIT]

Zeed, Lucemon, and Zeed's prior forms are mountanous in hax, however theyre very likable characters, and both are very deep in their own right.


(to be fair Zeed and Lucemon are perfect examples of haxxy characters that are written correctly)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@J-Man and @Dragon. Why would guidebooks for powers that won't be used matter? If anything, it would infuriate those who read the guidebooks and then never see say, the ReCreation attack in action, or again, they'd say "what BS that [power xyz] is never used."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I know Lucemon is (because of the anime), but Zeed? Why for Zeed?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I was mostly referring to how Jojo uses bios in between chapters to explain the power in greater detail if it wasn't touched upon that much in story, Kira is an example, it never goes that far into his limitations and such but it does in between chapters.

Basically if ya dont wanna detract from the narrative due to power exposition stuff like that is an option.

Games do it too, with menu descriptions for powers.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@ SITHISIT

I dunno man, Zeed was a pretty flat villain across the entire Akiyama Saga. At first he didn't really do much other then resurrect the (far more interesting) villains like Etemo and Devimo to fight Ryo. In the last three games, he was a pretty generic "take over the world" type villain who didn't really do much until the last acts of each game. Really, i it wasn't for her sheer power level, he wouldn't be memorable at all. Outside of a few good one liners, nothing else about him really stands out.

Lucemon was pretty good though. He's a rare example of hax actually making a character more interesting because he was just so unstoppable for the heroes.

@Cal

Maybe have cool hax, but have some sort of limitation on them? That way, fights can be more tense and strategic as characters have to set up there powers and work around there flaws while also avoiding and planning against their enemies, while also explaining why they don't just use the powers whenever they're helpful. Kind of like early Naruto. Watch some fight scenes like Shikamaru vs Temari, Choji vs Jirobi, Kiba vs Sakon and Lee vs Gaara for some good examples.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@J-Man and @Dragon. Why would guidebooks for powers that won't be used matter? If anything, it would infuriate those who read the guidebooks and then never see say, the ReCreation attack in action, or again, they'd say "what BS that [power xyz] is never used."

Who said these abilities were never used. Guidebooks can be used to explain what something does more in detail in order for the story to move on without having to explain what Pot of Greed does every Yu-gi-oh duel. Or explain what Dead or Alive does, or explain what Limbo does or explain what the Ancient Arrow does. Over and over again.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree Zeed was pretty flat. He's basically your generic evil destructive being. There may be a reason he isn't as popular as Lucemon or even Myotismon or Devimon.

 

[PaChi2]

I agree Zeed was pretty flat. He's basically your generic evil destructive being. There may be a reason he isn't as popular as Lucemon or even Myotismon or Devimon.

because he is from an obscure videogame saga.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree Zeed was pretty flat. He's basically your generic evil destructive being. There may be a reason he isn't as popular as Lucemon or even Myotismon or Devimon.

because he is from an obscure videogame saga.

True, that helps as well.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To sum everything up.

1) Stop thinking from a Vs Battle perspective.

2) Just because a character has a ton of hax doesn't mean they have to use it all the time.

3) If you are worried about PIS. Create write arounds or failsafes. That's what I've done, it has worked for me very well.

4) If you are worries about an OP villain. Make it so your MC's actually has something to counter them. And build it up so that it just doesn't come out of nowhere.

5) You focus to much on what critques say. Make your series how you want to make it. It's not going to be perfect. No series is. Even if this hax thing is still criticized, you should still have good writing to basically make it non-existent.

6) If you don't want to explain something over and over again. Create guidebooks to go into detail into what this attack does. Simple as that. Don't draw explanations out. A simple sentence explaining what say move does is enough.

7) Get that Hax = Quality mentality out of your head. A ton of hax =/= a bad character.

 

[Schnee_One]

In response to Dragons 7th statement, Reinhard, Alphamon, and many other Digimon and Masada characters nod in agreement.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm not a great writer, so my opinion doesn't count much.

But if you're that worried about powers breaking your story in half, you can follow the My Hero Academia route where EVERYONE has a limitation on their power.

All Might has a time limit on how long he can use his exceptional super speed and strength due to a grievous injury. Izuku Midoriya can't use his full power without shattering the bones in his arms. Shoto Todoroki can't use his preferred ice side constantly without risking frostbite. All For One's eyes are all but nonexistent due to his last bout with All Might, forcing him to use low-grade infrared senses to see and interact with the world.

This will force you to think of creative ways to use your characters' powers rather than just throw this and that attack at everything.

 

[PaChi2]

@Cal

Dont look at it from a Vsbattles point of view. Plot doesnt need to revolve around fights. Or the protagonist doesnt need to step in at all because he/she doesnt care about the conflict or something far deeper. You can have an uber powered character, have him oneshot in every single battle he is in (which shouldnt be many if you dont want to go the saitama route).

Either because the character is not the fighting type and are the others from the main cast the ones who fight.