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Cal's hax dilemma

The_real_cal_howard

The_real_cal_howard

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I feel like I've made a thread his before...

Anyway, it's no secret that I'm...different, to say the least, when it comes to verses with a bunch of main characters having a crazy amount of hax. As a writer, to me it looks like you're just trying to stuff a character(s) you like, or if not, you're gonna write yourself in a hole. Because either every fight would either be bulls*** or uninteresting. It also creates a lack of tension when your main character can regen from anything, or can screw with 25 different concepts, etc.

I'm aware that is a flawed view set. and I wish it to change. Obviously stuff here doesn't make a character (even though we treat hax like that sometimes. I'll get to that another day), so most writers don't care about it. But then, why do critics, who don't care at all what's going on here, bring up some of those points?

So, I ask (probably for like, the third time), how would someone get around to writing good stories and characters for a crazy amount of hax in the verse in general? Like, where does Reinhard succeed where Yhwach fails, because people like the former. How would you do it?
 
i think well...in reinhard's case he has to be more likable i guess in terms of character development morality and philosophy's that are also something that gives a wow factor i suppose rein is that kind of guy even if the situation is reversed on him he will remain calm and collected even happy unlike the generic IMPOSSIBLE kinds that normally villains get when the protag is beating them
 
Rein was more of an example than anything else. People like his character set. That much I get. But what about say, his wife BB? Or a Digi Demon Lord (even him)? And even with Reinhard, how come people aren't saying that if everyone can do xyz and way beyond, then why is there even a conflict of both sides can win in a nanosecond?

I've seen this critical argument when it's just one powerful person, and that person doesn't even have hax or a tier above 8. Imagine if that argument existed against tier 5 concept manipulators? Emphasis on the plural.
 
No clue about BB honestly. I just saw her one day on this wiki, thought she had a cool powerset, and used her in a match. Then she got a bunch of upgrades to make her OP and became all the rage to use.

As for how to make there be a threat when everyone can mess with concepts and regenerate from anything ... weaknesses, equal opponents with resistances, threats to the world/loved ones rather than the character? That's kinda what I'm going for at least in my story. idk. Or maybe just have the powers be more in the background and let character relationships and development be the main focus?
 
it's should be something unique (in a good way) and in my stories i often put concepts on the line, ppl with resistence, resistence negation and philosophy's that make people understand what that character represents (like rage, chaos, sadness, hate, death to name a few) at least to me
 
Before anyone says I'm a hypocrite because of the fact that there are haxxed characters I like (just a precaution. Not directed to you, Red, or anyone)

  • Lavos: Barely shows up in his games. Main villains are other people with ties to him. Mostly exists as a sense of dread, and prep is used heavily against him. And unlike my OP states, he's the only super hax in his verse. Plus, he wins.
  • Link (Composite): Doesn't exist. A purely hypothetical character of if all Links were one. No single Link is even close to as hax
  • Kirby (Character): All of his hax doesn't come in one game, and game mechanics stops a lot. Plus, it's not near as impressive.
 
I have a verse where the main character has an ability that basically lets him regenerate from anything. So that drama isn't lost though, the limitations are:

A) only as long as he has the will to live, which isn't much of a threat seeing as its the protag, but it does lead to some horrible moments where he's being tortured to break his will to live.So more of a "to the pain" than a "to the death" scenario

B) Changes which he subconsciously desires stay and don't get restored - this screws him over several times, as he has a very strong belief in how the world works, and doesn't think Regenerationn is possible, so he subconsciously desires the wounds to stay. Or he thinks a crippling wound is making him a better person in someway, so he doesn't regenerate from it,

C) Most other characters in the verse have some form of weapon or power than can negate his Regenerationn.

That way, there is still drama despite there being an extremely strong power.

Though I suppose rather than "how can I make these guys have strong powers but keep the tension" I should think more along the lines of "how can I keep the tension, but also hve powerful characters"... hmmm.
 
@Monarch. Two stories I have include someone with a godly Regenerationn or resurrection.

The first doesn't get it right away, and has Mid-Low for a long period of time, going up gradually to Mid-Godly eventually. And even then, incap comes up and he cares about the survival of his friends.

Second gets revived by a tier 0 whenever he dies, but he has to die (he can't regenerate) and he has an incredibly strict set of restrictions to be able to keep his power.
 
Also, I'll just put forward my theory on Reinhard

As well as being a interesting and compelling character, from what I've seen his power is never extra blatant.

Everyone is terrified of him, but I (having not done any routes except Kasumi's where he doesn't even return) didn't actually ever see any feats that were played as "look how powerful this guy is, he could destroy you with one hit, woah". A lot of it comes from his "power of the subordiantes" ability, which, similar to characters like Rimuru Tempest and Yhwach (though he is blatant with Almighty I guess...) lets them have a lot of strong powers without making them ever seem overloaded in the plot

Here, where we can see all the powers they have written on their page, it looks like a lot, but during the plot, its a lot less blatant.
 
mine has regen, immortality and resistent negation while the characters have like extremely hax regen and a lot of haxes but due to negations well...also willpower and the themes come up (Main protag is the embodiment of rage and is a person who can kill without issues main antag is chaos and often owns the protag a lot in power and hax to name a sample) Though in lore everyone (even regular people) are actually mentally diseased :p
 
At the same time, Marvel in particular has gone too far in the other direction. The matchup results are recurrently so unbelievably illogical that it detracts from my enjoyment of the stories.

Regardless, yes, focus on the story and writing interesting characters. Making the plot coherent is also important. Way back when I wrote a story, I simply dumped hundreds of ideas into the pot and stirred, then let it take me where it took me without any particular planning involved.
 
Focus on the plot sure, but if an author/audience wants there to be power, there's going to be power. Dragonball could have 99% the same plot if they just scaled it all down, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

But yeah, if your plot is being thrown out the window just to get more powerful characters, then you've screwed up as an author. Something I am trying very hard not to do.
 
same here @monarch i try to put power but I have to add lore and concepts to my story too early drafts were cringy i tell u
 
While I get the point, DB is haxless, tho when compared to hax verses, don't think that works as a comparison.
 
I made that mistake once. And I'm actually glad my computer got wiped so I didn't have to see that again.

My characters were wall level and subsonic by episode 4 at first. Then I had to buff them up after seeing stuff here. And while that turned out for the better, it was still a shameful thing to do.

Heck, I don't even know how to write serious hax for a main character. Even something like combat applicable reality warping. How do you even visually demonstrate that if you're trying to put up a non-cosmic fight?
 
Fair enough about DBZ

Well, I don't really know any other superhax verses other than DI so I don't really know...

Except maybe Skulduggery Pleasant. Darquesse is probably one of the most haxxed 7-Bs, on par with Tatsuya Shiba and equal if not superior to most of the normal LDO, but despite that it never seems that way. There is a legitamate threat, but her personality and relationships with the heroes makes her less likely to immediately kill them, and she tries to save them for last, so there is both a sense of "oh shit she's powerful" but also "heroes do have a chance". Which is good.

Or are you more looking for verses where the hero is superpowerful and how they maintain drama in that case?
 
By my experience it is harder to get away with writing extremely overpowered characters in books than in comics or animation, due to that you have to go more in-depth in the former medium. Even comparatively small scale powers give a massive existential advantage that are difficult to properly explore in terms of how it affects perceptions and circumstances.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Fair enough about DBZ
Well, I don't really know any other superhax verses other than DI so I don't really know...
Click to expand...
I think Warhammer40k is turning out to be my favorite OP haxxed verse, the more I read about its books and lore. And that's saying a lot about execution since I usually prefer the low ~ mid tier more moderate stuff.
 
@Ant I don't entirely understand the second part, but I completely agree with the first. Reading about an amazing feat leads to a lot less Suspension of Disbelief than seeing it.

So yeah, suspension of disbelief would also be a major thing. When you read about someone destroying a mountain, it's like "well how the hell did they do that?" while when you see it in a tv show its more believable because it's right there, and when it's in an anime it's even more believable because it's clearly not real, but that lets you enjoy it more rather than thinking "that can't happen"

Although, on the other side of the spectrum, certain more abstract powers would be easier to write than show. Hard to show that someone has rewritten causality / concept. Easier to write (though by the same token as above, harder to get away with unless it reads well and fits in with the rest of the story)

@Fate, well what does Warhammer do? How does it have OP characters but maintain drama?
 
If the narrator isnt your typical omniscient guy, but someone close to the op protagonist, you can get away with it easier.
 
Well, I just mean that when I wrote a story long ago, I tried to explore how having superhuman abilities would affect some of the characters in terms of practical everyday advantages and personal psychological perceptions.

If you overpower them too much, they would realistically turn completely alien in this regard.
 
@PaChi2 Yeah, that can work for bigger events.

Also, having the events be realistic is always a big thing in literature. Like in Eragon, Galbatorix can convert his body to energy in a suicide attack that gives off more power than a nuke, but because people are still thinking "oh, energy to mass, that makes sense" it doesn't seem like the author just decided "I want my charater to be superpowerful"

@Ant oh I see.
 
I wanna see something where the main character is superhuman but he's not magically human tier in every day life and only superhuman in combat.

No I mean if he wants to open a door that door is being dusted or taking a step is gonna propel him into a building and everything is in slow motion.

Don't think that's been taken that far before.
 
Probably because it couldn't be taken that far

He'd either learn to adjust and it'd be "magically normal" again, or it would be the story of a man crashing through buildings / sitting around never moving a muscile
 
@Monarch Galbatorix is kinda weak tho. ovo

And doesnt show up until the very end.
 
Nah dude, that's the point.

We all seen Berserker's First Errand, that but even further.

I don't mean in a serious setting, that probably won't go anywhere anytime soon.
 
@Monarch They have a massive ammount of lore, and the hax is deeply embedded in said lore. Plus, there are massive philosophical questions in the series to the point where you wonder much about the universe, each of its species and the numerous clashes between each faction - and those are not always shown from the perspective of the stronger beings, either.

For example, in the Last Church which I listened to recently there's not even a single battle save for one in a flashback, told from the perspective of a normal human.

It's a very deep and philosophical story of the past, and has most of its focus on a perfectly normal human being, a priest of old age (Uriah), who is nonetheless portrayed with attention and turns out to have much more personality than many other super powerful characters would come to have.

In other words, the verse does an extremely good balance in terms of story and hax - it doesn't force either side to the reader. Rather, both the hax/battle side and the story/lore side combine and flow perfectly together to the point they just make the verse overall better, in both senses.

It's really great. It's not just power clashes happening - there are many different types of conflict and ideologies clashing.
 
Also, regarding Yhwach, he fails as a villain because he was made so OP that literally no one could even hope to come close to kill him. Then, he got killed with 0 foreshadowing using a PIS arrow.

You can create a OP character, lets say, Ganondorf, but if there is a stated weakness for said character (Master Sword), defeating the villain isnt PIS depending on the context.
 
Talking about hax characters a dude from a new anime beats his opponents by activating a spell called "slip" and then makes it a loop so, his opponent simply keeps slipping and is unable to fight or this dude just uses the occasion and once they slipped he just charges towards them and that's it.

Also, as pachi said Yhwach was simple made so haxed no one can touch him within his verse and then got killed because a random power nullification arrow.

To put it simple he is hated simply because of the way he was defeated. (Just like my friends Zeref and Acnologia)

Moral of the story if you make a haxed villian you must have a super haxed MC and couple of other characters as well that can somehow deal with your villian.
 
Or, if you really really want a haxed OP main char, you can go the anti-hero route and make the story revolving around his/hers not-so-righteous moral and how he/she may or may not become a villain.

Bad guys can be the winners for once, lol.

As an example of this, Darshe.
 
If you want to focus on having overpowered characters, you can write a good book. But, it will be very hard to create a masterpiece. It is practically impossible to fully develop every aspect of your work. If you focus on developing powers, you'll probably spend less time developing the characters or creating a complex story. You should write whatever and however you want because it is you work after all. My advice, read stories that have extremely haxed characters and see what authors do to accomplish that while still having extremely good stories and characters.

On the topic of BB. She is introduced in Extra CCC and I immediately saw that she is powerful. But, I didn't think for a second that she is an unbeatable villain. That's because I was focused on another important character who I knew from before, Gilgamesh. Nasu managed to achieve this uncertainty as to who is more powerful. On one hand you had Gilgamesh who we all knew and we understood how poweful he was. He has that aura of a powerful being around him every time he talks. But we were introduced to BB who could toy with reality as if it was nothing. In one moment you think he is going to win and then you think she is more powerful. Seeing as Gilgamesh is my favorite character, I knew he was going to win. That thought in my head was at its strongest when the two confronted and BB was scared. Her words: "Do you understand what you've done? This Servant should never be awakened.". That was absolutely brilliant.

Also, BB had that big weakness. Immeasurable love for Hakuno. Everything she did was for Hakuno, the entire story of Extra CCC was created because an AI loved a human being named Hakuno. I liked that part and I didn't mind their broken abilities at all.

Of course, it depends what you are writing. A book, a story for a visual novel or a comic. I think books are very strict when it comes to powers and you can't just throw hax like you would in a visual novel. It has to be well incorporated into a story and even then you have to tone it down a bit so it doesn't feel forced.
 
It doesn't matter....

The hax a character has, or how powerful they character himself is, is irrelevant. In your example you compare Yhwach to Reinhard, in my opinion, this isn't fair, you are comparing a character who was rushed in at the very end and was given abilities he didn't even use, to a character with multiple routes to really show and develop his character. These resulted in one rushed and boring antagonist from Bleach, and an entertaining badass from Dies Irae.

Hax or just power, can add to the entertainment of a fight scene, atomizing a city sized monster in Fate Zero? Fun! A gorgeous blue hair able to literally freeze time itself in AGK? Cool! Erasing someones concept of life with a spear that ignores the concept of distance? Damn son! Frming a bunch ch of Mech's together to make a Universe sized mech battle another Mech and gain the ability to throw Galaxies at each other? HOLY ******* SHIT!

....A character that gains abilities that he should be able to use but doesn't and gets killed in a PIS fashion? Lame....

A badass character has to have a particular set of skills or abilities to make him look badass, but that comes far after focusing on his development.
 
Let's go into this.

Lucemo : Lucemon is more than just you average main villain with a ton of hax, matter of fact the majority of his hax comes from countless appearances and expansions of lore. Hell, I loved Lucemon waaaay before I came to this site due to how he was portrayed. Lucemon's lore itself is a good indication to why I love him.

The strongest of the "Seven Great Demon Lords", it is an ultimate Demon Lord Digimon which possesses both the divine and the diabolic. It instigated a rebellion in the far-flung past, and so it was sealed in the Dark Area along with many other Demon Lord Digimon. Its power exceeds that of Ultimates, and is said to rival that of the existence called "God" as well. It has a contradictory existence, in that one side of it loves all things, as God does, while the other is trying to destroy the whole world, as the Devil does. Hence, once it destroys this world, it intends to create a fresh new world.
As this shows, Lucemon is more than a villain that wants to rule the world, he truly loves the world, but he also wants to destroy it. Essentially having conflicting wants. And he most famous quote makes him even more likable.

I can't help, but love all those who live in this world. I'm not lying, I really love them. I can't help loving them more and more. So I will give them happiness. Happiness to live obeying my command, under my established order. Is there a greater happiness than that? Discussing this with you is pointless, it's not even a discussion to begin with. Whatever a perfect being like me tells imperfect creatures like yourselves, it would just be meaningless. My eyes can clearly see what is correct and what is not. I also have the knowledge to know what should be done. There's no one more suitable to rule over this world! How foolish, but I am too kind. So I forgive you.
~ Lucemo​
Lucemon has been detailed to neither be good nor evil. In fact he created those very concepts. He is neutral with his own set goals in mind. Matter of fact his other two forms are symbolic in a way.

Kid Lucemon represents his angelic side and the concept of good. This can be seen in his "good and cute little boy" design. And why he has all angel wings. This is when he's embracing the side that loves the Digital World.

Satan Mode Lucemon represents him demonic side as evident by him become the Dragon from the Book of Revelations and holding Gehenna. He has embraced his want for destruction and as such all his wings have become demonic.

Yes, Lucemon got popular due to all his hax, but at the same time, that doesn't define who he is. Not in the slightest, and the franchise never treats it like that either.

I will go more in depth in a bit.
 
The real cal howard said:
Rein was more of an example than anything else. People like his character set. That much I get. But what about say, his wife BB? Or a Digi Demon Lord (even him)? And even with Reinhard, how come people aren't saying that if everyone can do xyz and way beyond, then why is there even a conflict of both sides can win in a nanosecond?
I've seen this critical argument when it's just one powerful person, and that person doesn't even have hax or a tier above 8. Imagine if that argument existed against tier 5 concept manipulators? Emphasis on the plural.
Click to expand...
To answer the characters you mentioned, SPOILERS

BB suceeds in the way that she isn't trying to get in the way of the protagonist, she just wants to be happy with him and lead him to safety where the two can live a happy life while removing Hakuno's curse, you don't find this out until the end of the game.

BB still has a weakness with her divinity, which is explained through some rather interesting lore, and can be taken away with having more divinity, which the character soon get. BB herself has far more development then one expects.

People like any set as long as it's interesting, and when a character is apparently very haxed, people want to see if they can beat the haxxy ones, such as BB or 682
 
A main thing to consider is that, regardless of the character's power set, the story doesn't require they use it at every possible opportunity. I feel as though you're looking at this from a vs. battle perspective, where the character will always go with their broken thing first and that's that. In most of fiction, however, that is not the case.

For example, in World of Final Fantasy, the Exnine Knights have the ability to bend reality to their whim within their thresholds (Where the entire final dungeon takes place) and invalidate a being's existence entirely. In spite of that, they never display direct use of it in the fight with the heroes, because they don't need to. The story isn't enhanced or lessened by this, especially to someone not looking at this as a power/hax game.

Alternatively, Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts has the ability to extract/split a person's heart on a whim, or remove his own to possess his enemy. However, this is not in his character to use on any opponent, as he has a more articulated plan that does not require the use of it. He's only used possession in one battle, and that's because he saw his enemy a worthy vessel when his frail old body wasn't working for him anymore.

Or in another case, Hit has the ability to stop time for 0.5 seconds, but he doesn't just spam this over and over to ensure he always gets his enemies frozen in time and pelt them without any limits. Rather, he uses it strategically, ensuring he can use it to catch the enemy off-guard and deliver the attack when he needs to.

So, overall, ask yourself these questions:

"Does using it actually affect the plot, especially to a casual reader?"

"Does it relate to the villain's plan?"

"Would they ever want/need to use it at any possible chance?"
 
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