Celestial_Scaler25
He/Him- 614
- 497
This thread will focus on some additional abilities for minor and major characters of the Ben 10 franchise.
• Upgrade:
- Weapon Creation
Created weapons out of his arms in his fight against Kenko.
- Resurrection
Resurrected Ishiyama after Kenko killed him.
- Elasticity
Was stretched to unreasonable levels by Dr. Animo's giant squid monster.
- Subjective Reality
Was able to take himself and Gwen into a video game and bring them back. Repeatedly implied to be able to bring video game characters into the real world. Kanko wanted Upgrade's power to take him into the real world and was about to trick Ben into taking him there.
- Durability Negation and Explosion Manipulation
Could go right through Kenko's armor and explode it from the inside out.
- Resistance to Explosion Manipulation
Was completely unaffected by Kenko's armor imploding on itself. Comparable to Ba-Zel, who was fine after being engulfed in a large explosion.
- Resistance Negation to Technology Manipulation
Could manipulate Robo Rojo's armor despite it resisting his prior attempt.
- Resistance to Electricity Manipulation
Was unaffected by Victor's electrical attacks and the electricity that came of Robo Rojo's armor.
- Space Survival
Could effortlessly survive in space when he flew to the space station with Victor. Galvanic Mechamorphs have also been seen effortlessly surviving is space.
- Additional Limbs
Could bring an additional limb out of his chest in his fight against Otto. This ability should also be added to Malware's profile as he could do the same in his fight against Canonbolt.
- Flight
Could fly to the space station when fused with a rocket and could allow Kevin's car to fly when he fused with it.
- Hacking
Could hack the Plumber's computors to stop a transmission.
Upgrade's upgrade!
Upgrade's tier should be upscaled to '5-A, up to at least 4-B, possibly 4-A when merged with technology' due to being able to match a Meched Otto in a fight despite him tanking a blast from a charged up Eatle. This is rather consistent as an army Galvanic Mechamorphs could damage and defeat Malware[Fourth Form].
• Ben Tennyson:
- Weapon Mastery
Was skilled with a samurai sword and could defeat multiple enemy robots at once. Could match Pierce in his human form.
• Alien X and Celestialsapiens
- Levitation
Levitates above Asmuth's floor after transformation.
- Conceptual Manipulation [Type 3]
Should be comparable to the mother Celestialsapien. Who could create a new Celestialsapien, which as Abstract Existence like Alien X.
The reasoning behind it being a mere type 3 Conceptual Manipulation is due it not directly being stated the nature of these concepts the Celestialsapiens embody.
Quote;
"Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon...."
[Edit: I have received additional evidence and arguments in regards to Conceptual Manipulation in Ben 10 from fellow VSBW members]
Argument 1:Conceptual Manipulation [Type 2]
Ben 10 has Transtemporal Metaphysics. Transtemporal has a multitude of meanings ranging from trancendance over time to timetravel. All of which still refers to time regardless but in context of the episode, it mainly refers to timetravel. Metaphysics however is a far more broad topic but is defined as "the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, identity, time, and space".
How does this relate to Ben 10? Time and causality is the highest level of creation, as a higher time-axis in the Space Beyond, in Ben 10 as destroying time and causality will destroy all of creation. Implying that time governs reality. Celestialsapiens would have this ability as they can 'change the very nature of space and time' and as the Forge of Creation and Celestialsapiens are the very origin of the Universe, not Annhilarrgh Universes as they are created by the Contumelia and Celestialsapiens aren't allowed to create Annhilarrgh Universes as they violate the The Multiverse Preservation Act. So Celestialsapiens and the Forge of Creation are the origin of the verse as a whole.
This would qualify for [Type 2 ] Conceptual Manipulation as time governs all of the higher space-time causality of the Space Beyond and due to these metaphysical concepts exist within the Omniverse as the Forge of Creation, a trancendant realm of the Celestialsapiens, is devoid of time due to the Chrono Randomization Barrier and supported by 2 writer[1] statements[2].
Only the Celestialsapiens would have this ability as nobody else has this level of influence of the Universe. Not even Paradox, as his ability to destroy existence is based off destroying time and causality directly.
Argument 2:Conceptual Manipulation [Type 3]
The Forge of Creation and the Celestialsapiens are the origin of the Verse as explained prior. But not just the mere Universe but the very fundamental idea of the Universe as claimed by Paradox.
Paradox:"It is the source of the Universe's greatest power. Where ideas become real."
In context provided by the Map of Infinity, we know that the Universe is created from Forge of Creation. So all of creation is merely an idea created and governed by Celestialsapiens dual contiousness, explaining the level of control they possess over reality similarly to the Cosmic Imagination existing conceptually based of those perceiving in and granting Conceptual Manipulation to those capable of destroying/manipulating it.
This would qualify for Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation as Celestialsapiens and their trancendant plane of existence, the Forge of Creation, exist separately from existence and that they're mere thought's can become/alter the very idea of reality.
Argument from @Hellformer:
1. Creation of Abstract Beings:
Serena and Bellicus are not just powerful entities but embodiments of abstract ideas—love and rage. These concepts exist independently of any physical form. They are part of Alien X’s essence, making Alien X not just a powerful alien but an avatar of these deeper forces. The fact that Serena and Bellicus exist as representations of concepts rather than as beings bound by physical laws(Celestialsapiens exist separately from all of reality) shows that the Mother Celestialsapien can create entities that align with these higher-order abstractions.
2. Independent Universal Concepts: In the framework of conceptual manipulation, Type 1 involves manipulating Independent Universal Concepts, which are abstract principles that shape the structure of reality itself. These concepts (like love and rage) are not bound to any specific object, person, or universe. Rather, they govern aspects of existence across multiple dimensions and realities. The creation of such beings by Mother Celestialsapien implies she has the ability to manifest and manipulate concepts that affect all of reality, not just physical objects or beings.
3. Existence Beyond Physical Reality: Since Serena and Bellicus are tied to abstract concepts, they cannot be killed or destroyed by conventional means. They exist in a conceptual form beyond space, time, and dimensional boundaries(The FoC and Celestialsapiens are origin of the Verse as explained prior. Alien X's HDE will soon be extanged for BDE, making them unbound by dimensionality, and it's been established that Celestialsapiens exist outside the higher space-time causality of the Space Beyond). To truly affect or destroy them, one would need 1-B level range or higher—someone who can manipulate or destroy concepts themselves, not just physical forms. This further supports that the creation of these abstract entities involves a high level of conceptual control that only beings with advanced Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation would have.
4. Alteration and Influence on Reality: By creating abstract beings(Celestialsapien personalities), Mother Celestialsapien indirectly influences reality on a fundamental level. Concepts like love and rage have universal implications—they can alter the nature of space, time, and causality depending on how they manifest. This indicates that by manipulating these concepts, she has the ability to affect reality on a scale that encompasses not just physical phenomena but the conceptual underpinnings of existence itself.
5. The Forge of Creation: The Forge of Creation, where Celestialsapiens are born, exists outside the normal universe and has been described as a place where even Professor Paradox and those with the Map of Infinity can navigate. Given that Celestialsapiens are born here, it supports the notion that this realm operates beyond the limitations of standard dimensions and that beings created here are tied to conceptual or abstract forces rather than mere physical entities.
Conclusion:
Mother Celestialsapien’s ability to create new Celestialsapiens like Serena and Bellicus, who embody abstract concepts, aligns with Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation. She can manipulate Independent Universal Concepts, which are the highest level of conceptual manipulation, affecting the fabric of reality itself by creating beings who embody essential, abstract principles like love and rage. This power places her in a category of characters who can alter reality not just through brute strength or reality warping, but through manipulating the very concepts that govern existence.
• Clockwork, Looma and Terraspin's lifting strength
Clockwork could temporarily resist Looma's attempt to lift/move him. Looma is comparable, likely superior, to Fourarms. So both Clockwork and Looma should have Class P lifting strength.
Terraspin's lifting strenght should be 'Class 5 physically (Should be comparable to Galapagus, who easily threw a car), up to Class P with Air Manipulation (Could push back Looma Redwind.)'
• Trombipulor and Armodrillo's lifting strength
Trombipulor is comparable to both Fourarms and Humungousaur and has wrestled with the both of them.
Armodrillo is comparable to Trombipulor and he should scale to Andreas, who could shake free from Gwen's mana shield like Big Chill did.
Agree: @Ben_10_Stick_Nodes @GeneralSol16 @Spectral69420 @REX9097 @Hellformer
Disagree:
Neutral: @Ben_10_Stick_Nodes(Conceptual Manipulation) @Spectral69420(Conceptual Manipulation) @REX9097(Conceptual Manipulation)
• Upgrade:
- Weapon Creation
Created weapons out of his arms in his fight against Kenko.
- Resurrection
Resurrected Ishiyama after Kenko killed him.
- Elasticity
Was stretched to unreasonable levels by Dr. Animo's giant squid monster.
- Subjective Reality
Was able to take himself and Gwen into a video game and bring them back. Repeatedly implied to be able to bring video game characters into the real world. Kanko wanted Upgrade's power to take him into the real world and was about to trick Ben into taking him there.
- Durability Negation and Explosion Manipulation
Could go right through Kenko's armor and explode it from the inside out.
- Resistance to Explosion Manipulation
Was completely unaffected by Kenko's armor imploding on itself. Comparable to Ba-Zel, who was fine after being engulfed in a large explosion.
- Resistance Negation to Technology Manipulation
Could manipulate Robo Rojo's armor despite it resisting his prior attempt.
- Resistance to Electricity Manipulation
Was unaffected by Victor's electrical attacks and the electricity that came of Robo Rojo's armor.
- Space Survival
Could effortlessly survive in space when he flew to the space station with Victor. Galvanic Mechamorphs have also been seen effortlessly surviving is space.
- Additional Limbs
Could bring an additional limb out of his chest in his fight against Otto. This ability should also be added to Malware's profile as he could do the same in his fight against Canonbolt.
- Flight
Could fly to the space station when fused with a rocket and could allow Kevin's car to fly when he fused with it.
- Hacking
Could hack the Plumber's computors to stop a transmission.
Upgrade's upgrade!
Upgrade's tier should be upscaled to '5-A, up to at least 4-B, possibly 4-A when merged with technology' due to being able to match a Meched Otto in a fight despite him tanking a blast from a charged up Eatle. This is rather consistent as an army Galvanic Mechamorphs could damage and defeat Malware[Fourth Form].
• Ben Tennyson:
- Weapon Mastery
Was skilled with a samurai sword and could defeat multiple enemy robots at once. Could match Pierce in his human form.
• Alien X and Celestialsapiens
- Levitation
Levitates above Asmuth's floor after transformation.
- Conceptual Manipulation [Type 3]
Should be comparable to the mother Celestialsapien. Who could create a new Celestialsapien, which as Abstract Existence like Alien X.
The reasoning behind it being a mere type 3 Conceptual Manipulation is due it not directly being stated the nature of these concepts the Celestialsapiens embody.
Quote;
"Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon...."
[Edit: I have received additional evidence and arguments in regards to Conceptual Manipulation in Ben 10 from fellow VSBW members]
Argument 1:Conceptual Manipulation [Type 2]
Ben 10 has Transtemporal Metaphysics. Transtemporal has a multitude of meanings ranging from trancendance over time to timetravel. All of which still refers to time regardless but in context of the episode, it mainly refers to timetravel. Metaphysics however is a far more broad topic but is defined as "the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, identity, time, and space".
How does this relate to Ben 10? Time and causality is the highest level of creation, as a higher time-axis in the Space Beyond, in Ben 10 as destroying time and causality will destroy all of creation. Implying that time governs reality. Celestialsapiens would have this ability as they can 'change the very nature of space and time' and as the Forge of Creation and Celestialsapiens are the very origin of the Universe, not Annhilarrgh Universes as they are created by the Contumelia and Celestialsapiens aren't allowed to create Annhilarrgh Universes as they violate the The Multiverse Preservation Act. So Celestialsapiens and the Forge of Creation are the origin of the verse as a whole.
This would qualify for [Type 2 ] Conceptual Manipulation as time governs all of the higher space-time causality of the Space Beyond and due to these metaphysical concepts exist within the Omniverse as the Forge of Creation, a trancendant realm of the Celestialsapiens, is devoid of time due to the Chrono Randomization Barrier and supported by 2 writer[1] statements[2].
Only the Celestialsapiens would have this ability as nobody else has this level of influence of the Universe. Not even Paradox, as his ability to destroy existence is based off destroying time and causality directly.
Argument 2:Conceptual Manipulation [Type 3]
The Forge of Creation and the Celestialsapiens are the origin of the Verse as explained prior. But not just the mere Universe but the very fundamental idea of the Universe as claimed by Paradox.
Paradox:"It is the source of the Universe's greatest power. Where ideas become real."
In context provided by the Map of Infinity, we know that the Universe is created from Forge of Creation. So all of creation is merely an idea created and governed by Celestialsapiens dual contiousness, explaining the level of control they possess over reality similarly to the Cosmic Imagination existing conceptually based of those perceiving in and granting Conceptual Manipulation to those capable of destroying/manipulating it.
This would qualify for Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation as Celestialsapiens and their trancendant plane of existence, the Forge of Creation, exist separately from existence and that they're mere thought's can become/alter the very idea of reality.
Argument from @Hellformer:
1. Creation of Abstract Beings:
Serena and Bellicus are not just powerful entities but embodiments of abstract ideas—love and rage. These concepts exist independently of any physical form. They are part of Alien X’s essence, making Alien X not just a powerful alien but an avatar of these deeper forces. The fact that Serena and Bellicus exist as representations of concepts rather than as beings bound by physical laws(Celestialsapiens exist separately from all of reality) shows that the Mother Celestialsapien can create entities that align with these higher-order abstractions.
2. Independent Universal Concepts: In the framework of conceptual manipulation, Type 1 involves manipulating Independent Universal Concepts, which are abstract principles that shape the structure of reality itself. These concepts (like love and rage) are not bound to any specific object, person, or universe. Rather, they govern aspects of existence across multiple dimensions and realities. The creation of such beings by Mother Celestialsapien implies she has the ability to manifest and manipulate concepts that affect all of reality, not just physical objects or beings.
3. Existence Beyond Physical Reality: Since Serena and Bellicus are tied to abstract concepts, they cannot be killed or destroyed by conventional means. They exist in a conceptual form beyond space, time, and dimensional boundaries(The FoC and Celestialsapiens are origin of the Verse as explained prior. Alien X's HDE will soon be extanged for BDE, making them unbound by dimensionality, and it's been established that Celestialsapiens exist outside the higher space-time causality of the Space Beyond). To truly affect or destroy them, one would need 1-B level range or higher—someone who can manipulate or destroy concepts themselves, not just physical forms. This further supports that the creation of these abstract entities involves a high level of conceptual control that only beings with advanced Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation would have.
4. Alteration and Influence on Reality: By creating abstract beings(Celestialsapien personalities), Mother Celestialsapien indirectly influences reality on a fundamental level. Concepts like love and rage have universal implications—they can alter the nature of space, time, and causality depending on how they manifest. This indicates that by manipulating these concepts, she has the ability to affect reality on a scale that encompasses not just physical phenomena but the conceptual underpinnings of existence itself.
5. The Forge of Creation: The Forge of Creation, where Celestialsapiens are born, exists outside the normal universe and has been described as a place where even Professor Paradox and those with the Map of Infinity can navigate. Given that Celestialsapiens are born here, it supports the notion that this realm operates beyond the limitations of standard dimensions and that beings created here are tied to conceptual or abstract forces rather than mere physical entities.
Conclusion:
Mother Celestialsapien’s ability to create new Celestialsapiens like Serena and Bellicus, who embody abstract concepts, aligns with Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation. She can manipulate Independent Universal Concepts, which are the highest level of conceptual manipulation, affecting the fabric of reality itself by creating beings who embody essential, abstract principles like love and rage. This power places her in a category of characters who can alter reality not just through brute strength or reality warping, but through manipulating the very concepts that govern existence.
• Clockwork, Looma and Terraspin's lifting strength
Clockwork could temporarily resist Looma's attempt to lift/move him. Looma is comparable, likely superior, to Fourarms. So both Clockwork and Looma should have Class P lifting strength.
Terraspin's lifting strenght should be 'Class 5 physically (Should be comparable to Galapagus, who easily threw a car), up to Class P with Air Manipulation (Could push back Looma Redwind.)'
• Trombipulor and Armodrillo's lifting strength
Trombipulor is comparable to both Fourarms and Humungousaur and has wrestled with the both of them.
Armodrillo is comparable to Trombipulor and he should scale to Andreas, who could shake free from Gwen's mana shield like Big Chill did.
Agree: @Ben_10_Stick_Nodes @GeneralSol16 @Spectral69420 @REX9097 @Hellformer
Disagree:
Neutral: @Ben_10_Stick_Nodes(Conceptual Manipulation) @Spectral69420(Conceptual Manipulation) @REX9097(Conceptual Manipulation)
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