Battle for the 3rd Strongest Non-Smurf for 3-A - Soul King vs Greeza

[Deceived3596]

Both 3-A
Speed Equalized
SBA
------------------------

Vs

Soul King: Yomi_Schwarz, Peter1129 (Leaning)

Greeza: YungManzi

Incon: Mr Cutlery (Leaning)

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Deceived3596]

I believe this fight to be inconclusive given the fact that Soul King can't even interact with Greeza in the first place given his Type 1 Abstract Existence but i also believe Greeza has no way of actually killing Soul King given his abilities can't resist getting Powernulled/Taken from him by Soul King's Almighty (Which is Passive and can Powernull Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation that works on a Universal Level) nor can he bypass Soul King's regeneration via The Miracle.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

well, when op has to suggest the potential scenatio, that's a oof for me especially since I've been following

But at least it answers an internal question of how Reiō could interact with Greeza, as well as if there'd be anything countering Greeza's abilities.

So going by this, I'm also leaning towards Incon with a side of neutral until more input comes around.

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I believe this fight to be inconclusive given the fact that Soul King can't even interact with Greeza in the first place given his Type 1 Abstract Existence

Correct me if i'm wrong but, didn't the Soul King technically "affect" conceptual things? I mean, he created life and death itself.

According to the abstract existence profile, you would need to affect an abstraction itself to interact with those that have type 1.

Is that not sufficient in this case?

 

[LordGinSama]

Gremmy with the visionary was able to effect Lee who's nonexistent. I'm not sure if this means that he can affect abstracts but that could possibly help, along side conceptual Manipulation.

 

[Deceived3596]

Correct me if i'm wrong but, didn't the Soul King technically "affect" conceptual things? I mean, he created life and death itself.

According to the abstract existence profile, you would need to affect an abstraction itself to interact with those that have type 1.

Is that not sufficient in this case?

Honestly i have no idea, possibly? i mean it makes sense that if he can interact with Conceptual "Laws" like life and death then he should be able to interact within Conceptual beings like Greeza but i guess it properly depends on what level of that Type 1 Abstract Existence is, is his Abstract Existence based around Type 3 Concept's because if it is then Soul King should be able to interact with Greeza. Same thing with Type 2 Concept's.

But honestly the best thing you could do is ask a moderator who know's more about this stuff then me because i don't really know either.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Honestly i have no idea, possibly? i mean it makes sense that if he can interact with Conceptual "Laws" like life and death then he should be able to interact within Conceptual beings like Greeza but i guess it properly depends on what level of that Type 1 Abstract Existence is, is his Abstract Existence based around Type 3 Concept's because if it is then Soul King should be able to interact with Greeza. Same thing with Type 2 Concept's.

But honestly the best thing you could do is ask a moderator who know's more about this stuff then me because i don't really know either.

Then the thread is dead, I guess.

 

[Deceived3596]

Then the thread is dead, I guess.

Why?

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I believe that Soul King being able to create abstract concepts such as life and death as well as having a hax that can extend to beings of nonexistence would be sufficient grounds to assume that he would indeed be able to interact with Greeza.

By that point, Soul King would just use the Almighty to neg every abilities and resistances he has and hax greeza to oblivion.

I vote soul king (If we agree that the aforementioned feats are valid enough to affect type 1).

 

[YungManzi]

SK isn't accepted as being able to affect type 1 abstracts, so just incon them and have them share a spot.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

SK isn't accepted as being able to affect type 1 abstracts, so just incon them and have them share a spot.

Well greeza is not an abstract entity, he's just an abstraction and lacks a true physical form.

SK created abstract concepts within the bleach verse (Life and Death) and the requirement to bypass type 1 as per the wiki rule is to be able to affect an abstraction and SK is listed to be Type 2 conceptual manip. with his creation feat.

So, we know how far his hax can reach. Is that still not sufficient in this case?

 

[Deceived3596]

SK isn't accepted as being able to affect type 1 abstracts, so just incon them and have them share a spot.

He can? he doesn't need "Feats" when its just an inherent function of Conceptual Manipulation. Soul King can interact with and manipulate Abstract Concepts like Life and Death that don't posses a Physical form by any-means and since Greeza's Abstract Existence is similar to the state of Life and Death within Bleach (Lacking Physical Form/Embodying Concepts) Soul King should be able to interact with him given how easily he can interact with the Concepts of Life and Death within Bleach.

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Peter1129]

So overall it seems like Soul King might take the win if he can affect Greeza but I’ve still got a few questions I want to ask.

On Soul King’s profile it says he can nullify any abilities he sees in the future via information analysis through the future. But Greeza was specifically stated in series to have absolutely zero information and cannot be analyzed whatsoever which is why he has resistance to Information Analysis and Information Manipulation on its profile. So would Soul King be able to power null Greeza if he can’t understand Greeza due to it lacking any form of information and thus is resistant to Information Analysis which is what gives Soul King the ability to nullify abilities?

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

On Soul King’s profile it says he can nullify any abilities he sees in the future via information analysis through the future. But Greeza was specifically stated in series to have absolutely zero information and cannot be analyzed whatsoever which is why he has resistance to Information Analysis and Information Manipulation on its profile. So would Soul King be able to power null Greeza if he can’t understand Greeza due to it lacking any form of information and thus is resistant to Information Analysis which is what gives Soul King the ability to nullify abilities?

1.) The Almighty's Information Analysis is based on the ability it has to "understand all powers he sees in the future". The power null is based on "All powers that Yhwach sees in the future will be incapable of harming him or defeating him". The power null is based on Fate Manipulation rather than Information analysis.

2.) What is the specific mechanics of his resistance to information analysis? Cause if it is resistance to technology-based information analysis (which i assume is the case) then that would not be enough. The Almighty's information analysis is time based, specifically future based since it can understand the nature of things based on its future.

For you to be immune/resistant to the Almighty's information analysis you would have to be a being that is acausal and/or a being that "has no future" rather than being resistant to information analysis.

 

[Peter1129]

Ahh I see.

It’s basically the whole thing about Greeza being nonexistent and the void itself that gives it resistance. Space-time technology can’t sense or analyze it and characters with Extrasensory Perception that can sense energy and souls and all that other stuff also couldn’t really make sense of it since it’s 0 nothingness itself. The quote on its profile sums it up nicely.

“If there was a space energy reading of zero, then there's nothing in front of Space Musketty. Literally nothing, I mean. Zero, a void. That light shown is our senses trying to perceive a total lack of information.”

Also I’m guessing Soul King doesn’t care about the AP gap even when Greeza is tens of thousands of times stronger than him right?

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

It’s basically the whole thing about Greeza being nonexistent and the void itself that gives it resistance. Space-time technology can’t sense or analyze it and characters with Extrasensory Perception that can sense energy and souls and all that other stuff also couldn’t really make sense of it.

I assume he's still a being with a future? If so then he is still affected since that is what the almighty's precog is based on.

You need to be completely immune to precog (Like the mimihagi, which is a part of the SK) or just a being that only exist in the present.

Also I’m guessing Soul King doesn’t care about the AP gap even when Greeza is tens of thousands of times stronger than him right?

Nope. SK relies on Hax that ignores the AP gap and hax that keeps him from dying (Regen manifested from fear of those around him, resurrection based on his own future, Reactive evolution that makes him stronger etc.)

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah it still has a future. It’s also the whole reason why it lost in series. The Xlugger that Daichi’s mom found 15 years ago was able to change the original outcome of the future where Greeza won and erased all life on Earth into one where it was defeated by X and XIO.

I see though to be fair most of Soul King’s hax which comes from the Sternritters and Fullbringers don’t really work on Greeza because of it’s nonexistence granting it invulnerability so it mostly just comes down to Almighty. But yeah Greeza also has Mid-Godly Regen, Resurrection, and Reactive Power Level so it’s not like Soul King is the only one that will evolve as the fight goes on.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I see though to be fair most of Soul King’s hax which comes from the other Sternritters and Fullbringers don’t really work on Greeza because of it’s nonexistence granting it invulnerability to most 3-D stuff so it mostly just comes down to Almighty. But yeah Greeza also has Mid-Godly Regen, Resurrection, and Reactive Power Level so it’s not like Soul King

Well if you believe that SK being able to create abstract concepts such as Life and Death (listed as type 2 concept manip) would be sufficient enough to affect Greeza. Then that would mean SK being the one to utilize Fullbring and Sternritter hax should be able to use them at such a level.

And since we have established that the almighty should work just fine on Greeza, it should null Greeza's non-existence which would allow SK to use his other hax on him (Not that he would need it, Almighty should be sufficient).

 

[Peter1129]

Meh I’m no expert on conceptual manipulation stuff so no comment on that. But still some hax like Biological Manipulation won’t work either way since Greeza doesn’t even have a biology. But yeah you’re right about other stuff working if they are brought onto the nonexistent lvl.

Also you guys gonna try and make Soul King take on Yang Qi after this for 1st place of non Smurf 3-A? Don’t really recommend doing a match with Dark Schneider since the thread will probably just be abandoned as nobody really cares to debate a character they don’t know about.

 

[Rabbit2002]

I don't think abilities to create concepts also mean you could interact with concepts or destroy it as physical things. Creation is a thing, it is also explain in CM page
"All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the use of the power. A character who embodies a concept cannot create, manipulate, or destroy it unless otherwise shown. A character who can create a concept cannot destroy it unless otherwise shown, and vice versa"

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I don't think abilities to create concepts also mean you could interact with concepts or destroy it as physical things. Creation is a thing, it is also explain in CM page
"All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the use of the power. A character who embodies a concept cannot create, manipulate, or destroy it unless otherwise shown. A character who can create a concept cannot destroy it unless otherwise shown, and vice versa"

Greeza isn't really a concept. He's just am abstraction that lacks a physical form.

Based on this,

"Yeah it still has a future. It’s also the whole reason why it lost in series. The Xlugger that Daichi’s mom found 15 years ago was able to change the original outcome of the future where Greeza won and erased all life on Earth into one where it was defeated by X and XIO."

It seems that Greeza is still susceptible to Fate Manipulation which means he is susceptible to the Almighty's powernull (which would not conflict with Greeza's abstraction).

The almighty could just null his resistance at such a level where his other hax can harm him (Almighty alone should do the trick tho).

 

[Deceived3596]

This honestly feels like a stomp in Soul King's favor since from re-looking at Greeza's Profile its AE isn't based around a Concept but rather "Embodying the Void" which can be affected by Soul King through abilities like The Almighty or The Visionary, Completely discounting his Conceptual Manipulation.

All of his hax's would get passively negated through The Almighty's Powernull/Reactive Evolution or The Almighty's Fate Manipulation consistently changing the future so that Greeza can't use its powers.

Greeza doesn't really have a Win-Con given these reasons so i personally believe this is a stomp in Soul King's favor.

 

[YungManzi]

Creating concepts is not the same as destroying an abstraction. I thought that was obvious.

There's also NEP and invulnerability via not existing to consider (Unless SK has feats suggesting he can effect them). SK can't do anything to him. Nothing he does will be effective; not almighty, not any fullbring abilities, nothing. Unless you make the bold assumption that because he can create concepts, he can also destroy them.

I'm not voting Inconclusive @Deceived, I'm voting for Greeza as it just absorbs SK and it's GG.

All of his hax's would get passively negated through The Almighty's Powernull/Reactive Evolution or The Almighty's Fate Manipulation consistently changing the future so that Greeza can't use its powers.

Whatever power he uses has to be proven that it can work on NEPs and type 1 abstracts. If it can't be proven then it can't work. The only possible exception to this is plot manipulation (Because of its meta nature), and even that's an argument.

 

[Deceived3596]

Creating concepts is not the same as destroying an abstraction. I thought that was obvious.

There's also NEP and invulnerability via not existing to consider (Unless SK has feats suggesting he can effect them). SK can't do anything to him. Nothing he does will be effective; not almighty, not any fullbring abilities, nothing. Unless you make the bold assumption that because he can create concepts, he can also destroy them.

While true it does mean that person that can create Concepts can interact with Conceptual Beings inherently (not that really matters in this situation since Greeza's AE isn't tied to any-form of Concept.)

He can interact with NEP via the Visionary since it can create and bestow NEP as shown with Lee. The Almighty would effect him since being an abstract doesn't mean you don't posses a fate, especially Greeza's form of Abstract Existence. That isn't my argument anymore, my original argument was that if Soul King can create Concepts that lack physical-forms via their Conceptual Abstraction then Soul King would inherently be able to interact with Greeza since his physiology was similar to those Concepts (Now this was wrong since Greeza's AE isn't Conceptual at all but the main-point does still stand tho but it isn't needed for Soul King)

Whatever power he uses has to be proven that it can work on NEPs and type 1 abstracts. If it can't be proven then it can't work. The only possible exception to this is plot manipulation (Because of its meta nature), and even that's an argument.

The Visionary can interact with NEP as explained above and Soul King ability to effect Type 1 Abstracts is entirely dependent on the Abstraction which in Greeza's case is one that Soul King can interact with.

Having Type 1 AE doesn't inherently mean someone needs the ability to interact with Type 1 AE in general to interact with you, it's completely dependent on what your Abstraction is based around.

 

[YungManzi]

It's not that being abstract/NEP means you have no fate, it's that beings of that nature are completely irregular in every aspect.

Manipulating the fate of something that exists isn't the same as manipulating the fate of something that doesn't exist. Same with abstraction.

Those abstracts/NEP also technically have things like minds, memory, luck, laws, causality, ect. So that means all those manipulations should work on them right? Wrong.
Being an abstraction, they don't interact with the universe in the same way a non-abstraction would. For example; Death, as an abstract concept, is not in any way effected by any event or happening in the universe beyond its destruction.
Fate Manip as defined on our wiki is the manipulation of destiny and events;

Definition of Destiny: "the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future."

Abstractions aren't people, nor are they things/objects (We can go into what exactly constitutes as "thing" but the philosophical definition says it's something external to the thinking mind, which an idea/abstraction isn't; even the definition of abstraction itself says it's an idea separate from events)

^^^I say all that to say, yes, you need feats of affecting abstracts/NEPs with your powers when it comes to pretty much everything and this especially includes Fate Manipulation. Except like higher dimensional stuff and meta powers

____________________
CM is also limited to it's showings and feats as said previously, in which case, was SK's CM even done on screen?
If not, you can't use him being stated to have created concepts without additional context to say all of his powers can affect concepts.
More questions for SK...

Do we even know what Prime SK would start with? Would he even use The Visionary? Is it even in-character to spam fate manipulation like Yhwach?

Beyond those, what you said about the visionary isn't proof of interactions with NEPs. It just means it can create neps, which literally anyone with normal EE can do. Although Lee being able to bring himself in and out of existence is a cool idea; it's also entirely possible the visionary is just reacreating Lee and erasing him every time rather than bringing Lee from nonexistence. The Visionary is a weird power like that, and based on Gremmy's profile even he's not 100% sure how it works.
Even supposing your visionary argument is true, that's one ability.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Do we even know what Prime SK would start with? Would he even use The Visionary? Is it even in-character to spam fate manipulation like Yhwach?

That doesn't matter. His abilities are literally his body parts and the almighty's precog is passive.

Again, Greeza is susceptible to Fate Manipulation despite his abstract nature.

"Yeah it still has a future. It’s also the whole reason why it lost in series. The Xlugger that Daichi’s mom found 15 years ago was able to change the original outcome of the future where Greeza won and erased all life on Earth into one where it was defeated by X and XIO."

Greeza is absolutely susceptible to the Almighty here. Idek why we are discussing The Visionary here when the Almighty is enough.

Also the argument that SK gets absorbed is dumb. Aside from the fact that it'll just get negged by the Almighty, The Miracle makes it so that he can just reform his body out of the reishi everywhere (Plus almighty has resurrection).

 

[Peter1129]

Well I’m not sure if this matters to the topic but the thing that changed the future in which Greeza won was actually a weapon that has nonexistent interaction created using the Space Needle that is found within Greeza the void itself. Basically it was something that was born from Greeza’s own power that was shown to affect it.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Well I’m not sure if this matters to the topic but the thing that changed the future in which Greeza won was actually a weapon that has nonexistent interaction created using the Space Needle that is found within Greeza the void itself. Basically it was something that was born from Greeza’s own power that was shown to affect it.

But that means he's susceptible to fate manipulation despite being type 1?

That means fate hax works on him just fine.

And given the fact that the Almighty can be used to understand the nature of things by viewing their future, the SK can use that same method to neg Greeza.

 

[Peter1129]

Hey I’m just here to fill in some info on how Greeza lost in series. I really don’t understand how all this fate manipulation and conceptual manipulation thing affects nonexistent physiology. There’s a reason why I rarely make matches between characters with hax like these. It’s just way too confusing for me as I have no idea how they interact with each other. So you guys just decide how it works yourself. I’m only here to fill in the missing information and stuff.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Hey I’m just here to fill in some info on how Greeza lost in series. I really don’t understand how all this fate manipulation and conceptual manipulation thing affects nonexistent physiology. There’s a reason why I rarely make matches between characters with hax like these. It’s just way too confusing for me.

it's aight, thanks for filling in the gaps anyways~

 

[Deceived3596]

It's not that being abstract/NEP means you have no fate, it's that beings of that nature are completely irregular in every aspect.

Manipulating the fate of something that exists isn't the same as manipulating the fate of something that doesn't exist. Same with abstraction.

Those abstracts/NEP also technically have things like minds, memory, luck, laws, causality, ect. So that means all those manipulations should work on them right? Wrong.
Being an abstraction, they don't interact with the universe in the same way a non-abstraction would. For example; Death, as an abstract concept, is not in any way effected by any event or happening in the universe beyond its destruction.
Fate Manip as defined on our wiki is the manipulation of destiny and events;

Definition of Destiny: "the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future."

Abstractions aren't people, nor are they things/objects (We can go into what exactly constitutes as "thing" but the philosophical definition says it's something external to the thinking mind, which an idea/abstraction isn't; even the definition of abstraction itself says it's an idea separate from events)

^^^I say all that to say, yes, you need feats of affecting abstracts/NEPs with your powers when it comes to pretty much everything and this especially includes Fate Manipulation. Except like higher dimensional stuff and meta powers

That's something you have to prove because i don't believe the wiki itself believes in such notions. Also being they type of "Abstraction" that Greeza's is isn't one that's Conceptual at all. It's through embodying the Void which is completely different to say embodying the Concept of Time or the Concept of Darkness.

Greeza's is embodying something "Non-Existent" not something that is "Conceptual", big difference and one you have to prove grants him inherent resistances against Fate Manipulation which already manipulates something that is "Non-Existent" as well like Fate/Destiny.

---

This is just a sentimental argument and the Wiki itself doesn't aligned with this type of reasoning. This is why being able to Fate Manip abstract beings (Especially one's like Greeza) don't grant you inherently better Fate Manipulation then some one else, Being able to Fate Manip Acasual beings is the thing that grants higher-forms of Fate Manipulation.

Especially given the fact that Fate itself is inherently Abstract. So being able to manipulate the "Abstract" Fate of an Abstract Being grants your some-form of higher Fate Manipulation is a Double Negative. Also that isn't the Philosophical definition of what "Abstract" is, the definition your talking about is the basic Oxford definition which is possesses an entirely different Context then the Philosophical one.

Oxford:

Philosophical Definition:

CM is also limited to it's showings and feats as said previously, in which case, was SK's CM even done on screen?
If not, you can't use him being stated to have created concepts without additional context to say all of his powers can affect concepts.
More questions for SK...

Do we even know what Prime SK would start with? Would he even use The Visionary? Is it even in-character to spam fate manipulation like Yhwach?

Beyond those, what you said about the visionary isn't proof of interactions with NEPs. It just means it can create neps, which literally anyone with normal EE can do. Although Lee being able to bring himself in and out of existence is a cool idea; it's also entirely possible the visionary is just reacreating Lee and erasing him every time rather than bringing Lee from nonexistence. The Visionary is a weird power like that, and based on Gremmy's profile even he's not 100% sure how it works.
Even supposing your visionary argument is true, that's one ability.

Yes he did it in the Novel Can't Fear Your Own World. Also the entire argument regarding Conceptual Manipulation was that Soul King can interact with Conceptual "Iaws" like Life and Death which lack physical-form inherently and then comparing them to Greeza's Abstract Existence, then proceeding to make the rational conclusion that if Soul King can interact with things that lack Physical-Form on a Conceptual-Level with his Power then he should be able to do the same with Greeza since both "Existence" are similar to each-other.

Not really but he would mostly likely use the abilities that allow to interact with Greeza because he would've seen the Future countless times and "understand" everything within said futures. (Similar to Novel Kars Ability to "Understand" everything he sees)

Now i personally believe every power within Soul King's arsenal can interact with Greeza since their powered by his Reiryoku which was the thing that Separated/Manipulated the Concepts of Life and Death which i already explained above why that would allow him to harm Greeza.

---

If you can create the ability of NEP you can inherently interact with NEP. that's just basic logical deduction. EE doesn't grant inherent interaction with NEP since said EE has to interact with the being that posses NEP which said EE needs feats of doing. While being able to create and grant the ability of NEP grants your the inherent ability to target beings with NEP since your actually creating NEP itself. that "analogy" isn't analogis because of those reasons.

The Visionary isn't "Recreating" Lee at all, we're directly stated by Lee himself that his ability is to "Erase" aspects of himself. Ranging from his Appearance to his very Existence itself. So that assertion is completely head-canon and proven by Lee to be factually wrong. Gremmy's does know how the ability works given the fact he was the one that created and bestowed the ability onto Lee after he created him, Also how does his Profile give that impression?

And it's literally the only ability he needs offensively since Greeza's powers would be nulled by The Almighty and Soul King would be consistently hitting him with Thought-Based Reality Warping to the point of in-capping him. Thus granting Soul King the win.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Again just to clear things up since this is also way beyond my normal scope, but it's kind of wrong to say Greeza embodies something nonexistent. Greeza is the void, the physical form he manifests in is just his own existence forcing people to perceive him. This is further reinforced by the fact attacks just go through him, because he isn't actually there. In short, he is actually a propagation of the void overtaking a universe.

Dunno how this would affect things, but by the mechanics of the verse, Greeza would is an entity completely devoid of space-time given how he, as the void, has been described as being "the other side" which more or less hints to him being completely outside the confines of any universes. A universe that already encompasses its own history by virtue of being a continuum. This of course, opens up a can of worms of its own because it implies a retcon on Greeza's nature that we ourselves hadn't yet considered, so don't take my word.

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump