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Battle for 5th Strongest high 6-A: Kumoko vs Baba
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
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- 11,567
- Thread starter
- #2
For the record, I'm pretty sure Kumoko just dusts Baba, before it reaches the word blocks necessary to do anything.
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Maximum potential Baba / second key Baba is essentially Baba with prep. One reason behind making Baba with prep separate is due to the huge power difference that Baba gains with prep, but also how little prep Baba actually needs to get that powerful... In short the word blocks are already formed in a way that it would want.
This means that dusting the body "Baba" isn't enough to put it down for Baba could also be possessing all objects, the laws themselves, the void and his opponent, in addition to having abilities to replicate/create these things from nothing or other objects and means to reinforce the laws themselves.
Baba can attack characters without needing to have a word for said character through NOT and ALL keywords.
What does Kumoko have against being law haxed in all ways simultaneously and passively?
This means that dusting the body "Baba" isn't enough to put it down for Baba could also be possessing all objects, the laws themselves, the void and his opponent, in addition to having abilities to replicate/create these things from nothing or other objects and means to reinforce the laws themselves.
Baba can attack characters without needing to have a word for said character through NOT and ALL keywords.
What does Kumoko have against being law haxed in all ways simultaneously and passively?
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- Thread starter
- #4
"The word blocks are already formed" that seems not like a valid assumption, as that is saying that he is allowed to rewrite the laws before the battle. As the battle is taking place in a neutral place, rewriting the laws of it in advance isn't possible.
Baba needs to start as Baba, as he always does. Just all the word blocks he needs are present somewhere in the surroundings.
Baba needs to start as Baba, as he always does. Just all the word blocks he needs are present somewhere in the surroundings.
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There are no real differences between the two baba keys and it has been accepted that the second baba key is specifically a baba with more pre-formed rules. The first baba key isn't restricted in any way at all, except by simply not having any other laws formed in advance.
Considering that "Baba is you" has to be formed in advance anyway for baba to do anything and the levels themselves demonstrate pre-formed rules all the time.
You might as well use first key baba if you don't want him to have his abilities passively, as his second key says he has.
Considering that "Baba is you" has to be formed in advance anyway for baba to do anything and the levels themselves demonstrate pre-formed rules all the time.
You might as well use first key baba if you don't want him to have his abilities passively, as his second key says he has.
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- #6
The levels have pre-formed rules, but Baba hasn't formed said rules nor has it control over how they are formed.
The second key doesn't assume all the rules as pre-formed in my understanding. Otherwise it's tier wouldn't be Varies, as all the rules for reaching the higher tiers are already formed. In my understanding it's just the key with all the optimal rule blocks present, which usually isn't the case. (Which is why Baba's base key doesn't go to the same heights as its second key)
Tbh I would question the legitimacy of a key like you describe it, not at last because it is a non-existent version of the character.
The second key doesn't assume all the rules as pre-formed in my understanding. Otherwise it's tier wouldn't be Varies, as all the rules for reaching the higher tiers are already formed. In my understanding it's just the key with all the optimal rule blocks present, which usually isn't the case. (Which is why Baba's base key doesn't go to the same heights as its second key)
Tbh I would question the legitimacy of a key like you describe it, not at last because it is a non-existent version of the character.
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But it does assume that the rules are pre-formed.
Its tier variation doesn't come from the laws in most cases, but actually comes from the physical size of Baba, in which he can be the size of a rock to the size of a cluster of stars. Even taking over the level would vary with LEVEL IS YOU for the level could be a galaxy big or a house big.
Baba in his first key has access to all laws though, unless the match specifies that a certain law is restricted. The second key is exactly the same, just with the laws already formed being the only difference other than having potential access to the done key word.
The only reason Baba is on the strongest list is because of his second key having his abilities passively, earning him incons/victories against foes who have passives themselves and thought activated hax - much faster than taking 0.5 seconds to form a rule.
Its tier variation doesn't come from the laws in most cases, but actually comes from the physical size of Baba, in which he can be the size of a rock to the size of a cluster of stars. Even taking over the level would vary with LEVEL IS YOU for the level could be a galaxy big or a house big.
Baba in his first key has access to all laws though, unless the match specifies that a certain law is restricted. The second key is exactly the same, just with the laws already formed being the only difference other than having potential access to the done key word.
The only reason Baba is on the strongest list is because of his second key having his abilities passively, earning him incons/victories against foes who have passives themselves and thought activated hax - much faster than taking 0.5 seconds to form a rule.
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- Thread starter
- #8
The size of Baba is dependend on the rules and I don't see where the key states that the rules are pre-formed, instead of something it can form in battle. As said, by optimal laws at the start Baba would already be the level, which excludes the possibility of it being 9-B at any point in that key.
Heck, the second key even still has the "Baba needs to be able to physically reach and push the Text in order to manipulate it." weakness.
Baba in the first key doesn't have all laws. Otherwise that key would also be high 3-A by forming ALL IS DONE in battle, which it isn't. So that is for example one key one doesn't have, since it isn't a commonly available rule. Neither does it have the High 6-A stat via LEVEL IS BABA.
Then maybe it shouldn't be there? People misinterpreting how things work, when the supporters of the verse don't present it well is not uncommon.
Heck, the second key even still has the "Baba needs to be able to physically reach and push the Text in order to manipulate it." weakness.
Baba in the first key doesn't have all laws. Otherwise that key would also be high 3-A by forming ALL IS DONE in battle, which it isn't. So that is for example one key one doesn't have, since it isn't a commonly available rule. Neither does it have the High 6-A stat via LEVEL IS BABA.
Then maybe it shouldn't be there? People misinterpreting how things work, when the supporters of the verse don't present it well is not uncommon.
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The size of Baba is not dependent on the rules, the size of baba is dependent on the size of baba. I'm not sure what else to say other than baba's size being a pre-set thing... Either he's the size of a rock or the size of a star, no laws let him jump from rock size to star size... Some levels are tiny to further push down his minimum tier even with laws, possibly as small as 7x7 with no star sized objects in them, or smaller. However, the second key doesn't have ALL of his possible hax active at the same time; some laws would obstruct other laws, as described by the second key "All previous abilities, potentially in a passive way".
No, the second key says that his weaknesses vary because it's actually not clear or consistent, because he 'might' have laws preformed that take his weaknesses away or give him entirely new weaknesses. The weaknesses he does have are still applicable (if you can somehow destroy all YOU text, you have mostly, if not, entirely beaten him), but not necessarily equally exploitable as his first key.
It should be there because "note 2" says that his second key is himself with prep, otherwise, the way to beat second key would overlap the way to beat first key... Bring out a psychic type pokemon and hold baba still with psychic... We wouldn't even need the second key because LEVEL and DONE make up so little of his hax and it could just be add ons to the first/only key. Ex: One key, tier X with level is you, Tier Y with ALL IS DONE, matches themselves could just restrict specific laws, just as certain powers get restricted all the time if they cause tier jumps or stomps.
His earlier matches show this lose condition for his first key. Timmy Turner can sometimes threaten a foe with having his fairies freeze them in place while he tries to figure something out.
The separation between first and second key would otherwise become arbitrary at best as we would have to pin point a level or something that Baba has or hasn't seen.
The second key is made/designed to be a different foe in a way. You beat him by resisting law hax or having ways to come back, like his last two opponents: D and Xehanort, both law hax resisters... If not for the passively formed laws, D would've killed Baba by using his aura to freeze him before destroying anything he possesses, whether it's first key or second key.
If the second key weren't passive, there would be almost no opponents Baba can't beat in his first key that he could beat in his second key because all of his losses would be attributed to being frozen in place or being law resisted and all of his wins would be attributed to void haxing the opponent because they took two seconds to move.
This has been kept consisted in all of his matches so far.
While I'm typing a lot, I have no hard feelings.
I just want to clarify exactly what I have seen, known and been told.
No, the second key says that his weaknesses vary because it's actually not clear or consistent, because he 'might' have laws preformed that take his weaknesses away or give him entirely new weaknesses. The weaknesses he does have are still applicable (if you can somehow destroy all YOU text, you have mostly, if not, entirely beaten him), but not necessarily equally exploitable as his first key.
It should be there because "note 2" says that his second key is himself with prep, otherwise, the way to beat second key would overlap the way to beat first key... Bring out a psychic type pokemon and hold baba still with psychic... We wouldn't even need the second key because LEVEL and DONE make up so little of his hax and it could just be add ons to the first/only key. Ex: One key, tier X with level is you, Tier Y with ALL IS DONE, matches themselves could just restrict specific laws, just as certain powers get restricted all the time if they cause tier jumps or stomps.
His earlier matches show this lose condition for his first key. Timmy Turner can sometimes threaten a foe with having his fairies freeze them in place while he tries to figure something out.
The separation between first and second key would otherwise become arbitrary at best as we would have to pin point a level or something that Baba has or hasn't seen.
The second key is made/designed to be a different foe in a way. You beat him by resisting law hax or having ways to come back, like his last two opponents: D and Xehanort, both law hax resisters... If not for the passively formed laws, D would've killed Baba by using his aura to freeze him before destroying anything he possesses, whether it's first key or second key.
If the second key weren't passive, there would be almost no opponents Baba can't beat in his first key that he could beat in his second key because all of his losses would be attributed to being frozen in place or being law resisted and all of his wins would be attributed to void haxing the opponent because they took two seconds to move.
This has been kept consisted in all of his matches so far.
While I'm typing a lot, I have no hard feelings.
I just want to clarify exactly what I have seen, known and been told.
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