Ayanokoji Revision Thread

[DarkFracture]

Ayanokouji Kiyotaka & Ichika Amasawa Revisions
Hello everyone. I am opening this CRT to address some glaring issues with this accepted calc blog() which currently gives Ayanokouji Class 5 LS and Ichika Class 1 LS. (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._Feats_and_Statements:_Classroom_of_the_Elite)

The blog relies on flawed math, assumed timeframes, and a fundamental misunderstanding of our Lifting Strength standards.

Assumed Timeframe Fallacy
The blog calculates Ichika's falling speed based on the quote: "In a split second..."
The author arbitrarily assigns a timeframe of 0.08 seconds (peak human reaction).
Per our Cinematic Time and Calculation Guidelines, we cannot assign specific numbers to literary hyperboles like "in a split second" in static text (Light Novels) without a timer or explicit author statement.
Because the timeframe is completely assumed, the resulting speed (33 m/s) and the entire Kinetic Energy calculation are invalid.

Flawed Math
Even if we accepted the timeframe, the math calculation has a severe error.
The author calculates: 0.5 * 52.9 kg * (33.34 m/s)^2 = 29,400 Joules.
The author then writes the result as 29,400 kJ, mistakenly adding "kilo" and artificially increasing the result by 3 orders of magnitude.

Kinetic Energy cannot be converted to LS (Ayanokouji Class 5 Debunk)
The author takes the (flawed) kinetic energy of Ayanokouji throwing Ichika, divides it by distance, gets ~22,000 N, and slaps a Class 5 Lifting Strength rating on him.
Per our Lifting Strength page: "Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general and should be evaluated separately."
You cannot convert the kinetic energy of a combat throw (which uses leverage, momentum, and gravity) into static lifting strength (holding weight against gravity).

Torque ≠ Lifting Strength (Ichika Class 1 LS Debunk)
The author scales Ichika to Class 1 LS because she threatened to break Kushida's arm (requiring ~3300 N).
Breaking a bone/joint is Torque/Shear Stress (Striking/Impact), not static Lifting Strength.
Furthermore, the author states: "As Ichika was going to do it with a single hand, we can multiply this by two." This is textbook Calc Stacking. If her hand applies 3300 N, multiplying it by two arbitrarily is completely invalid.

Proposed Changes:
Ayanokouji Kiyotaka: Remove Class 5 Lifting Strength.
Ichika Amasawa: Remove Class 1 Lifting Strength.
Calc Blog: Void the speed and AP results from this specific blog due to assumed timeframes and flawed math.

Do you agree with these changes?

 

[Lilybitdun]

This should be a CGM thread since the OP is all calc issues

Assumed Timeframe Fallacy
The blog calculates Ichika's falling speed based on the quote: "In a split second..."
The author arbitrarily assigns a timeframe of 0.08 seconds (peak human reaction).
Per our Cinematic Time and Calculation Guidelines, we cannot assign specific numbers to literary hyperboles like "in a split second" in static text (Light Novels) without a timer or explicit author statement.
Because the timeframe is completely assumed, the resulting speed (33 m/s) and the entire Kinetic Energy calculation are invalid.

The 0.08 seconds comes from Ayanokouji blitzing her, it's not getting that timeframe from "split second"
The "in a split second" doesn't even refer to the feat, it refers the time it takes Ichika to let go of Kushida's arm and look at Ayanokouji

Flawed Math
Even if we accepted the timeframe, the math calculation has a severe error.
The author calculates: 0.5 * 52.9 kg * (33.34 m/s)^2 = 29,400 Joules.
The author then writes the result as 29,400 kJ, mistakenly adding "kilo" and artificially increasing the result by 3 orders of magnitude.

This is literally just a typo on the blog, the value used in the profiles is still only 29.4kJ
This is just a nitpick

So complete disagree on this AP/Speed section

I'm neutral on the LS stuff tho

 

[DarkFracture]

This should be a CGM thread since the OP is all calc issues

The 0.08 seconds comes from Ayanokouji blitzing her, it's not getting that timeframe from "split second"
The "in a split second" doesn't even refer to the feat, it refers the time it takes Ichika to let go of Kushida's arm and look at Ayanokouji

This is literally just a typo on the blog, the value used in the profiles is still only 29.4kJ
This is just a nitpick

So complete disagree on this AP/Speed section

I'm neutral on the LS stuff tho

You claim the 0.08s comes from him 'blitzing her'. That actually makes the calculation even more flawed. 0.08 seconds is the accepted Peak Human Reaction Time on this wiki. Reaction time is a neurological process (eye processing a stimulus and sending a signal to a muscle to twitch).
Ayanokouji moving his entire body behind her, grabbing a 52.9 kg human, and physically forcing her mass to the ground is a complex mechanical grappling action, not a simple reaction twitch. Equating the time it takes to perform a full-body judo/wrestling throw to a literal 0.08s reaction timeframe is the textbook definition of an Assumed Timeframe. You cannot arbitrarily divide a throwing distance by a reaction timeframe just because it was described as a 'blitz'. Without an explicit timer, this is completely invalid.

Okay, let's assume the 29,400 kJ in the blog was just a typo and the profile correctly uses 29.4 kJ. It literally does not change the core issue.

The Kinetic Energy is calculated using the velocity formula (E_k = 0.5 x m x v^2). Because the velocity (33 m/s) was derived from the illegal and assumed 0.08s timeframe, the entire 29.4 kJ yield is built on a fictional number.
Invalid Timeframe = Invalid Speed = Invalid Kinetic Energy. You can't use an assumed speed to calculate a legitimate AP.

Glad you are neutral on the Lifting Strength, as the Calc Stacking there is indefensible. However, the AP and Speed sections of this blog are entirely built on dividing a grappling throw by a peak human reaction timeframe. The resulting KE must be voided."

 

[Lilybitdun]

You claim the 0.08s comes from him 'blitzing her'. That actually makes the calculation even more flawed. 0.08 seconds is the accepted Peak Human Reaction Time on this wiki. Reaction time is a neurological process (eye processing a stimulus and sending a signal to a muscle to twitch).
Ayanokouji moving his entire body behind her, grabbing a 52.9 kg human, and physically forcing her mass to the ground is a complex mechanical grappling action, not a simple reaction twitch. Equating the time it takes to perform a full-body judo/wrestling throw to a literal 0.08s reaction timeframe is the textbook definition of an Assumed Timeframe. You cannot arbitrarily divide a throwing distance by a reaction timeframe just because it was described as a 'blitz'. Without an explicit timer, this is completely invalid.

You are arguing against the principles of all blitz calcs with this

 

[DarkFracture]

You are arguing against the principles of all blitz calcs with this

Fair enough. I concede on the AP and Speed sections. If the 0.08s timeframe is derived strictly from the blitz methodology rather than the 'split second' hyperbole, then it aligns with the wiki's current standards. I also acknowledge the kJ issue was just a typo in the blog and the profile's 29.4 kJ value stands.

However, since there is a mutual agreement regarding the Lifting Strength portion, the core issue remains: the KE to LS conversion and the arbitrary multiplier stacking for Ichika are fundamentally flawed.

I suggest we proceed with the revisions we agree on:
Remove Class 5 Lifting Strength for Ayanokouji.
Remove Class 1 Lifting Strength for Ichika.

Thanks for the clarifications on the blitz calc.

 

[Lilybitdun]

You need two staff votes before proceeding with any revisions

 

[XxZetsuxX]

The reaction speed doesn't even come from the split second part

It's the fact that Ichika has narrative like the white room which pushes humans to their physical and mental peak at a young age hence why she has 0.08

 

[Zefra3011]

Kinetic Energy cannot be converted to LS (Ayanokouji Class 5 Debunk)
The author takes the (flawed) kinetic energy of Ayanokouji throwing Ichika, divides it by distance, gets ~22,000 N, and slaps a Class 5 Lifting Strength rating on him.
Per our Lifting Strength page: "Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general and should be evaluated separately."
You cannot convert the kinetic energy of a combat throw (which uses leverage, momentum, and gravity) into static lifting strength (holding weight against gravity).

Torque ≠ Lifting Strength (Ichika Class 1 LS Debunk)
The author scales Ichika to Class 1 LS because she threatened to break Kushida's arm (requiring ~3300 N).
Breaking a bone/joint is Torque/Shear Stress (Striking/Impact), not static Lifting Strength.
Furthermore, the author states: "As Ichika was going to do it with a single hand, we can multiply this by two." This is textbook Calc Stacking. If her hand applies 3300 N, multiplying it by two arbitrarily is completely invalid.

I mean, we do consider pushing weight as LS, it's not just holding weight against gravity. For breaking bone we consider also tearing to be LS. And there are accepted calculation that find LS from character crashing something. Or even freeing themself from restrains.

Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words, it measures the amount of upward force a character can produce. As such, pushing and pulling feats are also considered part of this statistic as long as they have proper calculations to account for the difference from lifting. The weight of something pulled across a horizontal surface often needs to account for the appropriate friction coefficient after finding the mass of the object. Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be separated from physical strength when used in a lifting feat. Tearing also falls within this category, but it is unreliable for calculating overall lifting ability most of the time, as the force used in a tearing motion is much lower than a lift, as a tearing motion uses much fewer muscle groups and is an awkward application of force compared to other movements. Likewise, throwing an object a certain height upwards can be used as a lifting feat, as doing so would require greater strength than merely lifting the object.

Also, about the x2 part. I'm not a fan of it myself. But I've seen it accepted many times. The logic is simply that since you can apply X force with only one arm, you can apply twice as much using both arms. It's not really arbitrary. I also don't think it's calc stacking since you're calcing everything under the same feat, while calc stacking is more using calced numbers to calc other feats. By your logic, every multiplier in fiction is calc stacking, because it's a multiplication over a calced feat.

The rest's already been replied to by others.

 

[DarkFracture]

However, applying those specific rules to these feats reveals why the current ratings are fundamentally flawed.

While throwing an object upwards can be used to calculate LS, scaling the Kinetic Energy of throwing a ~50 kg human to Class 5 (1000 to 5000 kg) is a biomechanical and mathematical false equivalence. Even if we treat the combat throw as a forceful translation of mass to the floor, you cannot extract static Lifting Strength (Force) from Kinetic Energy without knowing the exact contact time and acceleration phase. By fundamental physics, Force requires the change in momentum over time (F = Δp / Δt). A martial arts throw utilizes leverage, shifting center of mass, and momentum. Simply dividing the KE of a moving body by an assumed distance to find raw Force (Newtons) ignores the time variable and joint mechanics completely. It absolutely does not prove he can statically deadlift 2.2 tons.

You correctly cited the rule for Tearing, but the very quote you provided states: "Tearing also falls within this category, but it is unreliable for calculating overall lifting ability most of the time..."
Furthermore, breaking or threatening to break an arm relies on joint manipulation and leverage. An average human BJJ practitioner can easily snap a joint using an armbar or a kimura lock due to leverage, but they obviously do not possess Class 1 Lifting Strength (1000 kg). Translating martial arts leverage/torque directly into static deadlift capacity is inherently flawed.

I will concede on the Calc Stacking point—you are right that a simple x2 multiplier for using both arms isn't technically calc stacking by wiki definitions. My mistake on the terminology there. However, the core issue remains: multiplying a fundamentally flawed base calculation (using joint leverage/torque as static LS) by 2 still yields a flawed Lifting Strength

I mean, we do consider pushing weight as LS, it's not just holding weight against gravity. For breaking bone we consider also tearing to be LS. And there are accepted calculation that find LS from character crashing something. Or even freeing themself from restrains.


Also, about the x2 part. I'm not a fan of it myself. But I've seen it accepted many times. The logic is simply that since you can apply X force with only one arm, you can apply twice as much using both arms. It's not really arbitrary. I also don't think it's calc stacking since you're calcing everything under the same feat, while calc stacking is more using calced numbers to calc other feats. By your logic, every multiplier in fiction is calc stacking, because it's a multiplication over a calced feat.

The rest's already been replied to by others.

result.

 

[Zefra3011]

While throwing an object upwards can be used to calculate LS, scaling the Kinetic Energy of throwing a ~50 kg human to Class 5 (1000 to 5000 kg) is a biomechanical and mathematical false equivalence. Even if we treat the combat throw as a forceful translation of mass to the floor, you cannot extract static Lifting Strength (Force) from Kinetic Energy without knowing the exact contact time and acceleration phase. By fundamental physics, Force requires the change in momentum over time (F = Δp / Δt). A martial arts throw utilizes leverage, shifting center of mass, and momentum. Simply dividing the KE of a moving body by an assumed distance to find raw Force (Newtons) ignores the time variable and joint mechanics completely. It absolutely does not prove he can statically deadlift 2.2 tons.

Sounds like you're way overcomplicating and talking abstract. Ayanokouji simply pinned her down from a standing position, it doesn't even read like a martial art throw. You could calc this with F = ma and you'll get the same exact result, sicne you talked about time variable.
a = 33.34 / 0.08 = 416,75
F = 52.9 x 416,75 = 22.046,075 N

Also, to be fair no character should be assume to translate his own LS to all situation (except for UES). Like IRL how much I bench press is irrelevant to how much I can squat. So "It absolutely does not prove he can statically deadlift 2.2 tons." works for anything that's not a deadlift feat. It's a very weak argument.

 

[Doggo]

Koji deadlifting a truck is funny tho

 

[DarkFracture]

F = ma and KE/d arrive at the exact same number because they share the exact same foundation: the assumed 0.08s timeframe. Changing the formula doesn't fix the assumption underneath it — it just takes a different route to the same invalid result.
More importantly, the VSBW Lifting Strength page explicitly states that throwing an object upwards can be used as a lifting feat. Ayanokouji threw Ichika downward into the floor — a slam/pin that uses gravity as an assist. The upward throw rule does not apply here by definition, and the actual muscular output required is lower than what the calculation assumes.
Finally, your own bench ≠ squat point actually works against the calc. If LS cannot be freely transferred between different movement types in real application, then a gravity-assisted downward slam is even less valid as a basis for static vertical lifting capacity than a standard throw would be.
The Class 5 rating remains unsupported

Sounds like you're way overcomplicating and talking abstract. Ayanokouji simply pinned her down from a standing position, it doesn't even read like a martial art throw. You could calc this with F = ma and you'll get the same exact result, sicne you talked about time variable.
a = 33.34 / 0.08 = 416,75
F = 52.9 x 416,75 = 22.046,075 N

Also, to be fair no character should be assume to translate his own LS to all situation (except for UES). Like IRL how much I bench press is irrelevant to how much I can squat. So "It absolutely does not prove he can statically deadlift 2.2 tons." works for anything that's not a deadlift feat. It's a very weak argument.

 

[Zefra3011]

Yeah but then no one would have a LS rating because all the feats would be only for specific movements.

And throwing upwards being valid doesn't invalidate people slamming things on the floor. Gravity would have nearly zero impact with a 0,08s timeframe. It wouldnt make her move even 0,1 m/s faster. Most energy would still come from Ayano.

Anyway if gravity has so much impact om the calc (it doesnt), just subtract it from the equation. But the result would be nearly the same as it is now.

Edit: for a 70 kg body the costant gravitational force is around 700 Newton. It basically has no influence over the result. It would make it 20 newton instead of 21 at worst.

 

[DarkFracture]

Yeah but then no one would have a LS rating because all the feats would be only for specific movements.

And throwing upwards being valid doesn't invalidate people slamming things on the floor. Gravity would have nearly zero impact with a 0,08s timeframe. It wouldnt make her move even 0,1 m/s faster. Most energy would still come from Ayano.

Anyway if gravity has so much impact om the calc (it doesnt), just subtract it from the equation. But the result would be nearly the same as it is now.

Edit: for a 70 kg body the costant gravitational force is around 700 Newton. It basically has no influence over the result. It would make it 20 newton instead of 21 at worst.

I’ll concede the point on gravity. You are mathematically correct that 700N is negligible compared to the total. I drop that argument.

However, focusing on the gravity math completely sidesteps the two fatal flaws that still invalidate this Class 5 rating.

The formula F = ma is entirely useless if the acceleration (a) is built on a fabricated timeframe. 0.08 seconds is the wiki's standard for Peak Human Reaction Time — the neurological process of seeing a stimulus and twitching a muscle.
Ayanokouji performed a complex mechanical action: moving his body, grabbing a 52.9 kg person, shifting momentum, and physically forcing them to the floor. You cannot logically use a reaction timeframe as the duration for a full-body grappling maneuver. Because the 0.08s duration is entirely assumed for this specific physical action, the resulting acceleration (416.75 m/s²), and therefore the Force (22,000 N), is fundamentally invalid. You can't calculate a real force using a fictional timeframe.
Even if the 0.08s timeframe were miraculously true, calculating the force required to accelerate a body into the ground gives you the dynamic kinetic output — which falls under Striking Strength / Attack Potency, not Lifting Strength.
The VSBW Lifting Strength page explicitly allows upward throws because the character must statically overcome the weight of the mass to lift it. A downward pin/slam is an entirely different biomechanical action. Using F = ma to find the force of a slam measures the kinetic impact (or grappling leverage), not how much static weight Ayanokouji can actually deadlift.
Since the timeframe for the throw is completely assumed, and the feat itself is a dynamic slam rather than a static lift, it cannot be used for Lifting Strength. The Class 5 rating has no valid foundation and must be removed

 

[Zefra3011]

I already replied to it not being LS because it doesnt prove Ayano can deadlift it.

About 0,08 s, that's what the wiki use, and it's there to be used. Most calcs do already.

I think I've said what I had to say, put me on disagree for everything.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Disagree FRA

 

[Lilybitdun]

After Zefra's arguments, I'm disagree on the LS stuff too

 

[Pyro9278]

Is OP using AI? The way everything is written seems odd to me, and it's ironic that OP is pointing out the time period issue when it's so standardized on the wiki, and he's aware of it...

 

[DarkFracture]

I already replied to it not being LS because it doesnt prove Ayano can deadlift it.

About 0,08 s, that's what the wiki use, and it's there to be used. Most calcs do already.

I think I've said what I had to say, put me on disagree for everything.

Saying "that's what the wiki uses" doesn't actually answer the problem. Yes, 0.08s is the wiki standard, but it's the standard for reaction time (twitching a muscle after a stimulus), not for the duration of a full-body wrestling throw. You can't just take an accepted number and plug it into a completely different physical action.
Also, calculating the force of slamming someone into the ground is literally calculating impact/Attack Potency, not static Lifting Strength.
Since we are just going in circles and getting "Disagree FRA" votes, I’ll drop the back-and-forth here. I'd like to wait for a Calculation Group Member (CGM) or Staff to take a look at the methodology

 

[DarkFracture]

Is OP using AI? The way everything is written seems odd to me, and it's ironic that OP is pointing out the time period issue when it's so standardized on the wiki, and he's aware of it...

No, I'm not using AI to generate my arguments. English isn't my first language, so I've been using translators and grammar tools to make sure my points are clear and formatted correctly. I just didn't want my arguments to get lost in translation, so if it sounds a bit stiff or overly formal, that's why, yandex.translate(keyboard) has its own built-in gramator and translator, I try to communicate constructively, anyway, we are waiting for the admins about the rules, so nothing can be decided anyway

 

[Zefra3011]

Saying "that's what the wiki uses" doesn't actually answer the problem. Yes, 0.08s is the wiki standard, but it's the standard for reaction time (twitching a muscle after a stimulus), not for the duration of a full-body wrestling throw. You can't just take an accepted number and plug it into a completely different physical action.

The calc argues Ichika got blitzed for the entire movement, that's why it's used.

 

[DarkFracture]

The calc argues Ichika got blitzed for the entire movement, that's why it's used.

Even if we accept the entire throw was a 0.08s blitz, that only calculates his kinetic impact.
Slamming someone into the floor at high speed is Striking Strength / Attack Potency. It does not prove how much static weight he can deadlift. You cannot use a dynamic combat slam to scale Lifting Strength. The tier still needs to be removed