Arceus tier question

[Sniper670]

Why does Arceus only have "Likey 2A" and "possibly type 4" Acausality. He fits both categories without question

1. The Pokémon multiverse is infinite, as even Masuda said its an infinite time and space. It's also ever expanding with countless worlds, the Ultra wormholes, and ever expanding multiverse. No beginning, and no end

2. The Distortion world is basically the opposite of the Pokémon reality. There's no time, space, no direction, the laws of cause and effect are distorted. No sense of direction, temperature. It operates on fundamental different principles compared to the Pokémon reality. And Giratina is the Distortion world itself

3. It's a world of nothingness, as Masuda explained, it exists but it doesn't, what humans see are basically an illusion. Dialga and Palkia created matter(physical aspect) , Lake trio created spirit(soul aspect) , and Giratina is basically the opposite of those(nothingness) . With Arceus transcending all of them. Doesn't Giratina at least qualify for Nep?

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. Infinite time and space could also refer to singular universes, it by itself was not enough for a full rating.

Countless is just 2-B

2. No idea

3. I think this is being discussed, something about it's portrayal being inconsistent

 

[Sniper670]

1. Masuda was referring to the multiverse. We already know that there are millions of universes in the Pokémon world. Each copy of the game being its own cosmology. So why would Masuda's statement be referring to just one universe. Masuda was talking about Dialga and Palkia. If I take what you said, then it means Dialga and Palkia can only affect one universe, which is false.

2. Sure. Hopefully I get more input on this soon

3. Why is it inconsistent tho? As Masuda explained it exists but doesn't exist at the same time.

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. He never said "multiverse" in that sentence nor he referenced it, he just said "infinite space and time" that's vague enough for both interpretations, and he never acknowledges the whole "each catridge is a universe" thing either.

3. I don't remember, i said what was the original consesus, idk what it is now, giratina might get paradoxial existence from it.

 

[Sniper670]

1. He never said "multiverse" in that sentence nor he referenced it, he just said "infinite space and time" that's vague enough for both interpretations, and he never acknowledges the whole "each catridge is a universe" thing either.

3. I don't remember, i said what was the original consesus, idk what it is now, giratina might get paradoxial existence from it.

1. He never said multiverse but he was referring to Dialga/Palkia. Unless you mean to tell me they have dominion over just one universe. Pokémon has never explicitly mentioned "multiverse" in literal terms, but it is a multiverse. Take Team Rainbow rocket, all coming from different universes where they succeeded in their plans. As stated in the games, it's ever expanding, and infinite by Masuda's statement. Ultra wormhole leading to countless worlds. Link cable really is used to connect 2 universes together. It's not vague. The link cable was going to be used to open a portal in ultra sun and moon to transfer the incoming meteorite to another dimension/universe. The mirror cave is even said to connect universes, without beginning and an end.


3. Shouldn't it be material or possibly Idealistic Nonexistence instead. The scenario Masuda gave was about a lake, where mountains exist on the lake through human eyes, but it's only a reflection and doesn't exist. As Cyrus said, it is a place of nothingness, lacking the concept of spirit, time and space.

 

[theultimate5105]

wouldn't infinite time and infinite space combined with MWI make it by default infinite

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think it's important to take into account when the statement was made (2009).

At the time there wasn't any real stuff with MWI, alternate universes, or whatever. Assuming it can only refer to that when it didn't even exist at the time seems like a leap in logic.


Also regarding Distorsion WOrld litteraly everything else contradicts it. It has clearly existing water, rocks, etc...

 

[theultimate5105]

Legends Arceus has infinite space statements as well
No everything else doesn’t actually contradict it Everything other then the water and rocks supports it

 

[Sniper670]

Eh, but it started to get more context in later releases, expanding on the idea of an infinite space/time and introducing the multiverse. With further evidence supporting it as I said earlier.

Masuda literally says they don't exist. What we see isn't actually there, but we see it anyway. It's only a reflection. He was trying to explain the very nature of the Distortion world. I see no contradiction when the very things you say contradicts it, doesn't actually exist at all. Distortion world is literally the opposite of the original Pokémon reality. It's a world of nothingness. It's a distorted world, literally in the name.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Eh, but it started to get more context in later releases, expanding on the idea of an infinite space/time and introducing the multiverse. With further evidence supporting it as I said earlier.

Masuda literally says they don't exist. What we see isn't actually there, but we see it anyway. It's only a reflection. He was trying to explain the very nature of the Distortion world. I see no contradiction when the very things you say contradicts it, doesn't actually exist at all. Distortion world is literally the opposite of the original Pokémon reality. It's a world of nothingness. It's a distorted world, literally in the name.

Eh, but it started to get more context in later releases, expanding on the idea of an infinite space/time and introducing the multiverse. With further evidence supporting it as I said earlier.

Masuda literally says they don't exist. What we see isn't actually there, but we see it anyway. It's only a reflection. He was trying to explain the very nature of the Distortion world. I see no contradiction when the very things you say contradicts it, doesn't actually exist at all. Distortion world is literally the opposite of the original Pokémon reality. It's a world of nothingness. It's a distorted world, literally in the name.

Which is still vague in itself.

Yet is litteraly shown to be existing. It's not a litteral reflection since people can exist inside, enter it, it has clear influence, clear physical contents, etc...
Also how do you even get "distorded"=nothingness? For something to be distorded means it has to exist.

 

[Sniper670]

What do you make of what Masuda said. He's lying? He was literally explaining exactly what the place was like.

"Yes. It exists but it actually doesn’t. It doesn’t exist but it does"....... Masuda's statement

People being able to go there doesn't disprove anything at all

Thing sounds like NEP to me. Unless you think he's lying, cos this was after the games release, so it's not as if it got retconned somewhere. And as Cyrus said, it's a place of nothingness, lacking concept of space, time and spirit. What you think you see looks like it's there, but it's actually not. Your argument for "physical things" is basically what Masuda was trying to clarify.

 

[QuasiYuri]

What do you make of what Masuda said. He's lying? He was literally explaining exactly what the place was like.

"Yes. It exists but it actually doesn’t. It doesn’t exist but it does"....... Masuda's statement

People being able to go there doesn't disprove anything at all

Thing sounds like NEP to me. Unless you think he's lying, cos this was after the games release, so it's not as if it got retconned somewhere. And as Cyrus said, it's a place of nothingness, lacking concept of space, time and spirit. What you think you see looks like it's there, but it's actually not. Your argument for "physical things" is basically what Masuda was trying to clarify.

So everyone in Pokémon has NEP now?

You just can interpret what one guy say in a way other than just being a 100% litteral machine. Though if you say that it wasn't actually there, why can you surf on some surfaces and not other? Why isn't our protagonist just walking in the void since it should be the same as the rest? Why are other sources considering this "lack" as just time/space/gravity/etc... being distorded?

 

[Sniper670]

It's been consistently stated by the people who go there, that it is a place of nothingness.

Take the manga, there was no pain, no temperature, no sense of direction, irregular law of cause and effect, no feeling at all. Not even the concept of space and time. So why does everyone in Pokémon have nep when they can't interact with anything in there.

Cyrus who lived there consistently pointed to the fact its a place of nothingness and chaos.

Tbh I don't know what more evidence you need at this point. As Masuda said, they're there but in actuality they're not.

 

[Sniper670]

Legends Arceus has infinite space statements as well
No everything else doesn’t actually contradict it Everything other then the water and rocks supports it

True. Someone made a crt for nep, transduality and HGR but it kinda just fizzled out.

 

[Thelastmlg]

The interview itself only gives possible 2-A due to the time released, legends is the one that'll probably make them fully 2-A and people like necrozma high 3-A

Idk about giratina and nep

 

[QuasiYuri]

So why does everyone in Pokémon have nep when they can't interact with anything in there.

Did you like, play the games ? You litteraly need to interact with stuff to reach Giratina.
Also anime shows people clearly interacting with the elements in it or how it works.