Apostle vs Kumoko

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Top strongest 2nd spot in 7-A :

Apostles of God

The Apostles of God are beings created by the god, Ehitorujue. They follow Ehito's instructions, and have been instrumental in causing wars between nations in the past, and slaughtering those who go against god's will. There are thousands of them and they all receive power from Ehito, and as...

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Kumoko (Web Novel)

Kumoko is the Protagonist of "Kumo desu ga, Nani ka?" A girl who lost her memories after the dimensional magic released by a fight between the Hero and Demon Lord of another world killed her and her entire class in modern day Japan. Kumoko and her classmates were then reborn on this alternate...

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Apostle :

Kumoko : @deonment

Inconclusive : @Artorimachi_Meteoraft

 

[Deonment]

Aight, so Kumoko just starts off the battle by jumping into a pocket dimension and camping out from there, she is entirely able from acting within there and using her entire kit, especially her evil eyes

She has sight based matter manip and deconstruction, paralysis that affects both body and mind, HP, Stamina and MP drain, magic and anti-magic breakdown and absorption, fear and empath manip, along with the ability to mess with teleportation and portals, in addition to being able to use them herself to send people into other pocket dimensions or interstellar distances, along with a clone and spider army that grows at an exponential rate and low godly

I do not think the apostle can just deal with this all, and at worst I think this just becomes an inconclusive on both sides because Kumoko will never be leaving that pocket dimension if she doesn't need to, especially if the other person can deal with a good chunk of her kit as she works on ways to try and kill the apostle, ie dropping abyssal magic and killing them on the spot that way

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Incon fra

 

[Deonment]

I don't really think this is incon since I do just think one of the evil eyes (either extinction, grudge or static) does just either incap or outright kill the apostle (however grudge will likely take time to kill)

 

[Deonment]

Yeah, I think Kumoko takes this since from what I've read of the Apostle's profile I don't think they can deal with Kumoko's kit

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

You haven't seen the other side wincon, but ok.

you can say fra if you see someone has good arguments.

But if kumoko takes this I’m switch to Kumoko fra

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Aight, so Kumoko just starts off the battle by jumping into a pocket dimension and camping out from there

The same for the apostle

she is entirely able from acting within there and using her entire kit, especially her evil eyes

How is this gonna work inside a pocket that required CM type 1 dimensional travel to enter it ?

She has sight based matter manip and deconstruction

This could probably work

paralysis that affects both body and mind,

How does it work ?

They don't have a soul and their mind is abstract.

HP, Stamina and MP drain

How is this a problem for a machine that have an inexhaustible source of power ?

magic and anti-magic breakdown and absorption

They resist magic null, and the absorption won't be a probelm(check their stamina).

fear and empath manip

Again abstract mind

along with the ability to mess with teleportation and portals

CM type 2 based portals and teleportation

in addition to being able to use them herself to send people into other pocket dimensions or interstellar distances

Her aura distort space

along with a clone and spider army that grows at an exponential rate and low godly

How is the number a problem ?

Mana interact with souls and damage them.

I do not think the apostle can just deal with this all, and at worst I think this just becomes an inconclusive on both sides because Kumoko will never be leaving that pocket dimension if she doesn't need to, especially if the other person can deal with a good chunk of her kit as she works on ways to try and kill the apostle, ie dropping abyssal magic and killing them on the spot that way

Yeah, the apostle are not so stupid to waste time energy fighting her.

I think this is a tie.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The same for the apostle

How is this gonna work inside a pocket that required CM type 1 dimensional travel to enter it ?

Does she do that consistently as first move?

Also, am I missing something? I don't see her have the CM that you say is required to do that.

How is this a problem for a machine that have an inexhaustible source of power ?

I mean, for one, Kumoko will start outgrowing them stat wise if she just gets to stockpile energy indefinitely. Exponential growth and all.

They resist magic null, and the absorption won't be a probelm(check their stamina).

Takes a breath
Alright, powernull scaling chain time.

Weakest powernull skill is Reverse Scale. Goes Level 1 to 10, each getting stronger (level up system and all).
Above that is the Dragon Barrier skill (again, 10 levels).
Above that is the Divine Dragon Barrier skill (again 10 levels of increasing null).
The Gluttony skill nullifies above the Divine Dragon Barrier. In fact, in chapter 179 it nullifies 6 Divine Dragon Barriers, although it's said to take some time.
The Anti-System Field Potimas uses negates Gluttony.
Kumoko's Evil Eye of Gluttony nullifies the Anti-System Field.
Kumoko uses the Evil Eye of Gluttony skill using 80k eyes, layering it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Does she do that consistently as first move?

No, but if there is no enemy she won't just sit down and wait for an attack.

She is also the type that use stealth to one shot her opponent.

Also, am I missing something? I don't see her have the CM that you say is required to do that.

The pocket dimension that she enter is created by this guy, and it required the MC CM type 1 just to pass through the portal.

mean, for one, Kumoko will start outgrowing them stat wise if she just gets to stockpile energy indefinitely. Exponential growth and all.

She has AD too, and she's not tha stupid to just keep feeding her energy.

She is the type that focus on swordsmanship and disintegration while using magic when it's necessary.

Weakest powernull skill is Reverse Scale. Goes Level 1 to 10, each getting stronger (level up system and all).
Above that is the Dragon Barrier skill (again, 10 levels).
Above that is the Divine Dragon Barrier skill (again 10 levels of increasing null).
The Gluttony skill nullifies above the Divine Dragon Barrier. In fact, in chapter 179 it nullifies 6 Divine Dragon Barriers, although it's said to take some time.
The Anti-System Field Potimas uses negates Gluttony.
Kumoko's Evil Eye of Gluttony nullifies the Anti-System Field.
Kumoko uses the Evil Eye of Gluttony skill using 80k eyes, layering it.

Some of these look just like multiplier, were they accepted in the layer thread ?

 

[OriginFox]

Cheering for best Spider

 

[Deonment]

How is this gonna work inside a pocket that required CM type 1 dimensional travel to enter it ?

Kumoko is entirely capable of just, stopping attempts at using dimensional travel or portals using her own mastery of dimensional magecraft, either by just outright negating the attempt, or by changing the coordinates that either the portal or the teleportation leads to, or just outright stopping the attempt in the first place

This could probably work

Well her abusing her evil eyes is just her first or second in character move, and is something she is entirely capable of doing while she moves into her pocket dimension because of her omnidirectional vision

How does it work ?

Stops the target from moving or thinking

How is this a problem for a machine that have an inexhaustible source of power ?

Magical power sure, however what she is draining is physical stamina along with health, which will just result in their death (and yes even machines have HP and SP in verse)

They resist magic null, and the absorption won't be a probelm(check their stamina).

Kumoko's magic null is as DT said, layered, in how potent it is, what you are describing is something already done by Anti-Magic Zones, which rather than increasing the cost of magic, entirely shuts it down, something which Kumoko's Evil Eye of Gluttony is entirely capable of negating and is even more so for a God Zone, in which not even her own Evil Eye works to affect another God in it

Her aura distort space

Kumoko is entirely capable of functioning in and messing with distorted space, so this doesn't mean much

How is the number a problem ?

Because it means she can be working on shit in her pocket dimension while like 50 of her bombard the apostle in real time with magic and evil eyes, esp for the statistic-based ones like Grudge

Mana interact with souls and damage them.

1)Resisted to an obscene degree
2)Get that shit on the profiles

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Kumoko is entirely capable of just, stopping attempts at using dimensional travel or portals using her own mastery of dimensional magecraft, either by just outright negating the attempt, or by changing the coordinates that either the portal or the teleportation leads to, or just outright stopping the attempt in the first place

Unless she can null Law and CM based space manipulation, there is nothing she could do to the apostle. They even resist the same type of spatiale manipulation.

Well her abusing her evil eyes is just her first or second in character move, and is something she is entirely capable of doing while she moves into her pocket dimension because of her omnidirectional vision

How does omnidirectional vision work ?

Stops the target from moving or thinking

Is it status effect ?

Magical power sure, however what she is draining is physical stamina along with health, which will just result in their death

Well they don't have HP or stamina just magic power, and they're not even alive (immortality 7) and they will just ressurect but it depend on Ehit.

(and yes even machines have HP and SP in verse)

Is this caused by the system ?

How do we equalize this ?

Kumoko's magic null is as DT said, layered, in how potent it is, what you are describing is something already done by Anti-Magic Zones, which rather than increasing the cost of magic, entirely shuts it down, something which Kumoko's Evil Eye of Gluttony is entirely capable of negating and is even more so for a God Zone, in which not even her own Evil Eye works to affect another God in it

Get this accepted here, before using it.

Kumoko is entirely capable of functioning in and messing with distorted space, so this doesn't mean much

I can't find anything about this, scan ?

1)Resisted to an obscene degree
2)Get that shit on the profiles

1)The profile doesn't give any detail about it

2)It wasn't added yet
no magic

「I’ve got no time to care of this!」

Hyun, the streak of a sword flash ran through the bloody wind. Right after that, Kousuke’s figure appeared a few meters ahead. His pose with one hand pushing up his sunglasses while staying unmoving was truly striking. Even though he still hadn’t fully entered the Abyss Lord mode.

The result was naturally……

All of the attacking “somethings” ――bloodshot dark red eyes, hair, and teeth that grew sparsely, bizarrely long limbs, a thin and ashen body that had a deficit here and there, and yet only their stomach was strangely bloating up――had their heads tumbling to the ground without a single exception. It was as though they were monsters like ghouls.

And then, they got up as if nothing happened.

「No way!?」

Kousuke-san who entered Abyss Lord mode briefly reflexively returned to normal.

The ghoul-like things that he had definitely beheaded were regenerating their heads as the cut section began bubbling and swelling up.

with magic

The ghoul-like thing that was biting on the short sword, the one who attempted a pincer attack from behind, and not just them, but even the things below and above that were looking for a chance to attack were also dragged into the magic flame tornado altogether.

And then, PAN after the sound of wind bursting accompanied the disappearance of the flame tornado, the person who was pushing up his sunglasses meaninglessly……

That was, Kousuke……

No, starting from the irritation that the situation wouldn’t progress smoothly, his binding of the heart finally came off――it was the Abyss LordAbyssgate!

「Hou. It appears their regeneration is faltering before my abyssal skill, isn’t it?」

Lord Abyssgate was staying in midair with the power of the Air Force boots while narrowing his eyes behind his sunglasses in a striking pose.

Just as he said, the winged ghoul-like things which got hit by “Gouka Beni Senpuu” were turned into dust and carried by the wind without being able to regenerate.

Were they weak against flames? Or perhaps because it was an attack by magic? If it was the latter, then would physical attacks be effective as long as he coated them with magic power?

Because it means she can be working on shit in her pocket dimension while like 50 of her bombard the apostle in real time with magic and evil eyes, esp for the statistic-based ones like Grudge

Again unless she got some crazy dimensional travel hax, her attack won't the apostle inside their dimension.

 

[Deonment]

How does omnidirectional vision work ?

Her Fluoroscopy entirely removes blindspots from herself and allows her to use her evil eyes to affect stuff no matter what direction they come from

Is it status effect ?

Nope

Well they don't have HP or stamina just magic power, and they're not even alive (immortality 7) and they will just ressurect but it depend on Ehit.

Is this caused by the system ?

How do we equalize this ?

HP and SP are measures of what they say on the tin, however in the case of SP, its more a general measure of your body's physical energy levels, and when it bottoms out you either become incapable of acting because you have no stamina to do anything, or your push yourself and your HP and MP begin to be drained massively

I can't find anything about this, scan ?

Eh, can't find it rn and I can't be assed to check through the whole novel so I'll concede this point

1)The profile doesn't give any detail about it

It does though?

Corruption/Heresy Nullity: A skill that negates all negative influences on the user's soul, including attacks that influence the mind.

This being the evolved version of Heresy Resistance after 10 ranks + gaining a ruler skill, and Shiro's state as a God is beyond even that, since even with Abyssal Magic which could kill her through this, to kill a god takes hundreds of people spamming the strongest soul destruction magic ever to actually kill them

Again unless she got some crazy dimensional travel hax, her attack won't the apostle inside their dimension.

I'm not saying she is gonna attack them inside their dimension, I'm saying that she is going to attack them from inside her pocket dimension while they are still in the real world, especially as it seems they need a portal to move themselves, and considering how she typically changes the time scale between reality and her pocket dimension, she will very much have enough time to just evil eye the apostle down, especially as extinction is a one shot kill here

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Her Fluoroscopy entirely removes blindspots from herself and allows her to use her evil eyes to affect stuff no matter what direction they come from

What can she do against the apostle disintegration light ?

however in the case of SP, its more a general measure of your body's physical energy levels, and when it bottoms out you either become incapable of acting because you have no stamina to do anything, or your push yourself and your HP and MP begin to be drained massively

Then you can say that the apostle have infinite HP MP and SP, because they don't get tired, reach their physical limit or runout of energy.

If their machines go through this, then it's their weakness and not something that apply outside the verse.

Eh, can't find it rn and I can't be assed to check through the whole novel so I'll concede this point

Her profile need some work

This being the evolved version of Heresy Resistance after 10 ranks + gaining a ruler skill, and Shiro's state as a God is beyond even that, since even with Abyssal Magic which could kill her through this, to kill a god takes hundreds of people spamming the strongest soul destruction magic ever to actually kill them

This seems like it could protect from hax that target the soul, the apostle on the other hand will physical damage her soul by coating her blade in mana.

I'm not saying she is gonna attack them inside their dimension, I'm saying that she is going to attack them from inside her pocket dimension while they are still in the real world, especially as it seems they need a portal to move themselves, and considering how she typically changes the time scale between reality and her pocket dimension, she will very much have enough time to just evil eye the apostle down, especially as extinction is a one shot kill here

For this to happen the apostle should just stay still and do nothing and give Kumoko the first move, which is something against their character. Even with speed equalized the Apostle has a thought based stat amps(3×).

 

[DontTalkDT]

No, but if there is no enemy she won't just sit down and wait for an attack.

Well, Kumoko will send her clones in, so there are enemies around.

She is also the type that use stealth to one shot her opponent.

Don't see that doing her much good here.

The pocket dimension that she enter is created by this guy, and it required the MC CM type 1 just to pass through the portal.

So why did it require that for the MC but not for her?

She has AD too, and she's not tha stupid to just keep feeding her energy.

She can just suck energy from the planets around the universe via her clones instead.

From what I read Kumoko's AD is probably better. Like, the more energy she has, the more clones she can make and these clones can then work on gathering more energy to make more clones and on creating new magic.
So the stronger she gets the faster she gets stronger. Exponential growth and all.

Some of these look just like multiplier, were they accepted in the layer thread ?

The 80k thing is potency via numbers and not a layer thing at all for a start.
That aside I consider layer numbers alone a rather incomplete crutch for comparing potency. It's like saying "I have a scaling chain of 3 above 8-C, so I'm stronger than your scaling chain of 2" without checking for the actual quality of the steps in the chain involved. Not a great fan of wiring everything through that thread as a result.

If Apostle has feats to contend, I would prefer you name them so that we can do a less superficial comparison.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Well, Kumoko will send her clones in, so there are enemies around.

She won't even give her time to escape, and once she notice something wrong, she'll just retreat to Ehit dimension.

So why did it require that for the MC but not for her?

If you don't have permission from Ehit, you won't be able to enter.

The 80k thing is potency via numbers and not a layer thing at all for a start.
That aside I consider layer numbers alone a rather incomplete crux for comparison. It's like saying "I have a scaling chain of 3 above 8-C, so I'm stronger than your scaling chain of 2" without checking for the actual quality of the steps in the chain involved. Not a great fan of wiring everything through that thread as a result.

Quantity over quality

If Apostle has feats to contend, I would prefer you name them so that we can do a less superficial comparison.

Can't answere this, wait for another supporter.

 

[Deonment]

What can she do against the apostle disintegration light ?

Either regen or not get hit by staying well out of range

Her profile need some work

Yes but while I can basically get a citation for near everything I would need to, I am a lazy bastard

This seems like it could protect from hax that target the soul, the apostle on the other hand will physical damage her soul by coating her blade in mana.

That's what it does too?
Heresy attribute includes both hax and straight up soul damage or destruction, characters such as Reise can apply heresy magic to their attacks and attack the soul of others, or soul break, which outright destroys the soul of the target, so yes it would be resisted here

For this to happen the apostle should just stay still and do nothing and give Kumoko the first move, which is something against their character. Even with speed equalized the Apostle has a thought based stat amps(3×).

It's not just a matter of the apostle staying still, it's a matter of Kumoko doing both the evil eye stuff and leaping into her pocket dimension at the same time, because she can do that due to being able to do a bunch of things at once, the lowest of low balls being 4 at once, but the actual number is likely somewhere in the hundreds considering how she is controlling all of her clones at once as well, or she can have the clones that reside within her pocket dimensions do the evil eye stuff while she moves into her pocket dimension instead
Also that 3x amp is what put her in this tier so the apostle wouldn't be able to activate that since, well, its already active

She won't even give her time to escape, and once she notice something wrong, she'll just retreat to Ehit dimension.

Considering how each clone has her entire kit, including the Evil Eyes, especially considering how 1) They are sight based 2) The travel seems to be done using a portal, so Kumoko would just absolutely take the opening there to stop them from retreating, and thus they would die due to getting hit with all the evil eyes