Another Simple MG CRT

[Dereck03]

So. Here we are again, but this time this CRT will be like the first 3, it will be minor and hopefully uncontroversial.

For Anos (and those who use Anti-Magic)

I would like to propose the following.

Resistance to Pain Manipulation, Greater Curse Manipulation & Madness Manipulation (Type 3; Able to endure being driven to madness by the voices of the curses that tormented his source and the pain of dying over and over again)

If you are wondering why the “Greater” in Curse, it is because Anos already has resistance to Curse in the profile, but this is from a much more powerful user, maybe all those instances of “Greater” will be changed to layers in the future, who knows.

---

And for Graham

I would like to propose the following.

Resistance to Immortality Negation (Types 3, 4 & 8) & Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. Venuzdonoa, who is even capable of negating the immortality and regeneration of the gods. was unable to permanently destroy Graham due to his nothingness physiology whose is unbound of reason/logic)

In the case of Graham and Venuzdonoa, it can be argued that as much as Venuz being able to negate immortality and regeneration it should be able to bypass Graham, but Graham due to his physiology was able to resist these effects even with Venuzdonoa present and regenerate when Venuzdonoa withdrew due to its time limit.

It can be said that Graham could not regenerate when Venuz was present but what is shown is that Graham says that Venuz can keep destroying him and keep returning him to nothingness and he can keep and existing and only taking form of Graham when Venuz wasn't there.

So yeah, even this could be Immo and Regen layers, but I don't know, what do I think.

After a debate, I decided to change this proposal and added the scans to Graham's HGR to have the denotation.

Regeneration (High-Godly. Graham can regenerate from nonexistence even after his source (concept) is destroyed. Additionally, Venuzdonoa, who is even capable of negating the immortality and regeneration of the gods. was unable to permanently destroy Graham due to his nothingness physiology whose is unbound of reason/logic)

That's all.

Agree. (0,9) Daten_Naraku, Godsatoshi23, Tatsumi504, ROZAN-U, Success0906, EldemadeDityjon, Dark_Soul20189, Berga14, Ottavio_Merluzzo.

Disagree.

Neutral.

 

[Daten_Naraku]

I Agree with the downgrade.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Seems straightforward, I agree.

 

[Tatsumi504]

For Anos.

It's resisted with anti-magic so everyone gets it

 

[DemonKing021]

I agree but uncontroversial CRTs are kinda boring.

 

[Dereck03]

It's resisted with anti-magic so everyone gets it

In the scan it is seen that Anos uses Anti-magic but it is destroyed, so he lets the curse enter his source so.

 

[Tatsumi504]

In the scan it is seen that Anos uses Anti-magic but it is destroyed, so he lets the curse enter his source so.

Having to break through the anti-magic is proof though and Anos only used a minimal amount of power in it. The curse just overpowered it

 

[Dereck03]

Having to break through the anti-magic is proof though and Anos only used a minimal amount of power in it. The curse just overpowered it

The minimum for Anos may be the impossible for many, well, on second thought it makes sense due to the general properties of anti-magic, so it's okay I guess.

 

[ROZAN-U]

In the scan it is seen that Anos uses Anti-magic but it is destroyed, so he lets the curse enter his source so.

if he fully warded himself to be resistance with anti-magic the curse will be completely ineffective against him so it would go above and spread to other places , so by making the anti-magic weak he let the curse target only him

agree with the thread

 

[Success0906]

Agreed. Anos can handle the whispers, it seems....

 

[Berga14]

I would like to propose the following.
If you are wondering why the “Greater” in Curse, it is because Anos already has resistance to Curse in the profile, but this is from a much more powerful user, maybe all those instances of “Greater” will be changed to layers in the future, who knows.

Idk but that looks more like type 2.

It can be said that Graham could not regenerate when Venuz was present but what is shown is that Graham says that Venuz can keep destroying him and keep returning him to nothingness and he can keep and existing and only taking form of Graham when Venuz wasn't there.

(I guess you are arguing for a resistence here, you forgot to write it)
I can understand the resistence to immo neg but not regeneration neg, he isn't regenerating or anything, he just keeps getting destroyed which is countered by his nep souce.

 

[Dereck03]

Idk but that looks more like type 2.

Apart from driving him insane it even makes him feel the pain of dying continuously, if it wasn't for Anos' innate resistance he would have felt what Kaihilam would experience when dying many times, which fits the following in type 3.

More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

Since a normal person would have died just by contact with the curse.

(I guess you are arguing for a resistence here, you forgot to write it)

I can understand the resistence to immo neg but not regeneration neg, he isn't regenerating or anything, he just keeps getting destroyed which is countered by his nep souce.

He is regenerating, only Venuz keeps destroying him, Graham says it when he points out that if he keeps using Venuz he will continue to perish and at that point Graham had already been destroyed by Venuz. He simply did not find it plausible to regenerate only to be destroyed again.

 

[Berga14]

which fits the following in type 3.

Isn't this the main point of type 3?

Cognition: Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.


Just killing seams like a very strong madness but the main focus of the ability isn't just killing.

He is regenerating, only Venuz keeps destroying him, Graham says it when he points out that if he keeps using Venuz he will continue to perish and at that point Graham had already been destroyed by Venuz

I checked the scan you used in the previous crts but i can't find anything that support this. Maybe i missed something, can you send the scan here?
Edit: the things you underlined don't look like regeneration, yeah the order is regeneration but because the sword doesn't have effect anymore

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Point 1 - I agree with this, but I have to ask why Pain manipulation is included when it's a secondary effect. (When you get hurt you feel pain, so wouldn't that just be an Endurance feat?) Also, why is it "Greater" Curse manipulation, instead of just normal curse manipulation? While I understand that the user is stronger, can it not just be due to the effect combination? (Having 2 hax instead of one) Also, would you be willing to explain why Madness manipulation wouldn't be limited or type 3, since it appears to require direct contact with the source?
- I agree with the rest of it.


Point 2 - I am honestly not seeing the resistance, since it appears to me that it's just Graham's NEP being much deeper than what Venuz can properly affect in the case of preventing regeneration. So it's not overcoming the immortality/regeneration negation through blocking it, but simply Venuz not being able to affect the entirety of Graham. So to conclude he is not resisting Venuz effect, but rather due to his nothingness, he is simply deeper than what it can affect.

 

[Dereck03]

Isn't this the main point of type 3?

Cognition: Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.


Just killing seams like a very strong madness but the main focus of the ability isn't just killing.

The point lies in the fact that Type 2 focuses on driving the target insane through mental manipulation, while here Anos lets the curse envelop his source (concept), the voices of the curses try to drive him insane, yes, but it is the pain of experiencing death many times that makes the curse overcome that and kill the user. So I don't see how that falls into Type 2.

I checked the scan you used in the previous crts but i can't find anything that support this. Maybe i missed something, can you send the scan here?

Venuzdonoa destroyed Graham's nothingness but Graham is still there, focusing that even though Venuzdonoa is capable of destroying everything, even logic unravels, it could not permanently destroy his nihility. And Graham saying that if Anos keeps using Venuz, he will only continue to perish and that after Venuz withdrew Graham would reform again.

It can be seen that on the 2 occasions Graham had already been destroyed by Venuz, but he still existed and had regenerated from the first destruction, that is why he said that he could continue to be destroyed but not forever which is the same I said here.

He simply did not find it plausible to regenerate only to be destroyed again.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Also, Isn't order restored when Venuzdoana is put away? Or has that changed?

Sorry, it's been a long time since I read it.

My point with this here is that Venuz prevents it from regenerating, but is unable to completely completely destroy Graham for the reasons mentioned above. This leads to him being able to regenerate after the swords have been put away, and Order is restored. So it's not him resisting it.

 

[Dereck03]

Point 1 - I agree with this, but I have to ask why Pain manipulation is included when it's a secondary effect. (When you get hurt you feel pain, so wouldn't that just be an Endurance feat?) Also, why is it "Greater" Curse manipulation, instead of just normal curse manipulation? While I understand that the user is stronger, can it not just be due to the effect combination? (Having 2 hax instead of one) Also, would you be willing to explain why Madness manipulation wouldn't be limited or type 3, since it appears to require direct contact with the source?
- I agree with the rest of it.

Pain Manipulation is there, well to denote that he is capable of resisting that kind of pain, since anyone can say that Anos is not capable of resisting a superior kind of pain to death or blah, blah.

About “Greater” to denote a clear difference, such as the difference in power of Anos' mauve eyes with his eyes of chaotic destruction, unless you want me to make this layers.

And lastly, this does not require contact with the source, since as such Anos said he would let the curse trap his source and not his body, so it would work for both types.

Point 2 - I am honestly not seeing the resistance, since it appears to me that it's just Graham's NEP being much deeper than what Venuz can properly affect in the case of preventing regeneration. So it's not overcoming the immortality/regeneration negation through blocking it, but simply Venuz not being able to affect the entirety of Graham. So to conclude he is not resisting Venuz effect, but rather due to his nothingness, he is simply deeper than what it can affect.

This point I have already considered, but that is the point of a regeneration negation, to be able to overcome and bypass the physiology and resistance of the target. You can tell when he destroyed his normal source, his source of nothingness and the original nothingness that remains after that.

At least that somehow a denotation is made that Graham is able to come to resist those effects due to his lack of reason/logic, what do you propose?

 

[Dereck03]

Also, Isn't order restored when Venuzdoana is put away? Or has that changed?

Actually there was no order destroyed in the battle against Graham, the only thing that was destroyed was the reason that nothingness could not be destroyed, everything that has been destroyed by Venuz has always perished forever, with the exception of Graham.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Agree with the wank

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Pain Manipulation is there, well to denote that he is capable of resisting that kind of pain, since anyone can say that Anos is not capable of resisting a superior kind of pain to death or blah, blah.

About “Greater” to denote a clear difference, such as the difference in power of Anos' mauve eyes with his eyes of chaotic destruction, unless you want me to make this layers.

And lastly, this does not require contact with the source, since as such Anos said he would let the curse trap his source and not his body, so it would work for both types.

I am fine with that, though I am still not sure if I like the resistance for pan manipulation since it just seems like extremely good pain tolerance instead, which I personally consider to be an endurance feat.

This point I have already considered, but that is the point of a regeneration negation, to be able to overcome and bypass the physiology and resistance of the target. You can tell when he destroyed his normal source, his source of nothingness and the original nothingness that remains after that.

At least that somehow a denotation is made that Graham is able to come to resist those effects due to his lack of reason/logic, what do you propose?

Me being the brilliant mind I am, I made my argument into 2 posts, only to accidentally publish it early.

Actually there was no order destroyed in the battle against Graham, the only thing that was destroyed was the reason that nothingness could not be destroyed, everything that has been destroyed by Venuz has always perished forever, with the exception of Graham.

That's the thing though, wasn't that order restored when it was put away? Since it seems like that is the case from the scan presented no?

Here is my full argument, that I accidentally posted early.

Also, Isn't order restored when Venuzdoana is put away? Or has that changed?

Sorry, it's been a long time since I read it.

My point with this here is that Venuz prevents it from regenerating, but is unable to completely completely destroy Graham for the reasons mentioned above. This leads to him being able to regenerate after the swords have been put away, and Order is restored. So it's not him resisting it.

The wacky stuff here for me is that he can only be restored AFTER Venuz is put away.

Regarding what I propose, is hard to say, since at least from my perspective it doesn't seem like he is actually overcoming Venuz's effect, but circumventing it. But that said, I understand your view here though too. Since it's a wanky case. But one thing is clear, venuz can't fully erase Graham's nothingness as proven by the scans you sent. But at the same time, can't regenerate until it's put away, and order is restored...

Ah, just put me in disagree for it for now, but I would be fine with a limited version if the other staff agrees to it, and believe it qualifies... I have made my thoughts pretty clear on why I think as I do.

 

[Berga14]

but it is the pain of experiencing death many times that makes the curse overcome that and kill the user

I don't understand what you mean by this.

Except the fact that Anos experienced the pain of dieing i can't see any reason for type 3 (also the scan doesn't show people dieing from it so even less reasob for type 3). Even if this isn't outright mind manip i still think that the way this curse works isn't even near the definition of type 3.
So for me it should be type 2 just for the fact that it isn't either type 1 or 3 and the way it works resembs type 2. If you show people dieing from the madness (and not for the pain) i guess a "type 2 possible type 3" can be done.

Venuzdonoa destroyed Graham's nothingness but Graham is still there, focusing that even though Venuzdonoa is capable of destroying everything, even logic unravels, it could not permanently destroy his nihility. And Graham saying that if Anos keeps using Venuz, he will only continue to perish and that after Venuz withdrew Graham would reform again.

This scans do not say that Graham can regenerate while the sword is in use thought.
His nothingness is destroyed but another and deeper nothingness is left after the destruction, if he can regenerate is simply because he wasn't completely destroyed to begin with (his nothingness is still part of him).

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This will be my last message here for today, and possibly the thread length, but isn't order the combination of "laws, logic, reason, concepts" etc? In other words, what decides how the world functions?

Forgot to answer this so I will do it rq. I need sleep

At least that somehow a denotation is made that Graham is able to come to resist those effects due to his lack of reason/logic, what do you propose?

A separate idea, wouldn't it be smart to add a "notable feats" section on Anos/Graham's profile, since I feel like this definitely would be a good one, since I can see your point that it needs to be mentioned, but doesn't exactly meet the criteria for me.

 

[Dereck03]

I am fine with that, though I am still not sure if I like the resistance for pan manipulation since it just seems like extremely good pain tolerance instead, which I personally consider to be an endurance feat.

We do not have Pain Endurance

That's the thing though, wasn't that order restored when it was put away? Since it seems like that is the case from the scan presented no?

As I said, no order was destroyed in this battle. Order =/= Reason/Logic.

Regarding what I propose, is hard to say, since at least from my perspective it doesn't seem like he is actually overcoming Venuz's effect, but circumventing it.

It can be both, although in fact it can be said that it is overcoming it since venuz is still present in that case.

But that said, I understand your view here though too. Since it's a wanky case. But one thing is clear, venuz can't fully erase Graham's nothingness as proven by the scans you sent. But at the same time, can't regenerate until it's put away, and order is restored...

I would say that it is clearer to say that it would not regenerate because Venuzdonoa is still in the field, since Graham himself says that Venuzdonoa would continue to destroy him, which makes sense that he would not regenerate given the current context of the battle.

If you show people dieing from the madness (and not for the pain) i guess a "type 2 possible type 3" can be done.

The pain is caused by the madness, and that byproduct is what causes death, so.

This scans do not say that Graham can regenerate while the sword is in use thought.
His nothingness is destroyed but another and deeper nothingness is left after the destruction, if he can regenerate is simply because he wasn't completely destroyed to begin with (his nothingness is still part of him).

I already debated this point but Dark_Souls seems to understand it better.

This will be my last message here for today, and possibly the thread length, but isn't order the combination of "laws, logic, reason, concepts" etc? In other words, what decides how the world functions?

Order doesn't include logic within it. Logic or reason is something superior to order and to the verse as such, while everything in the verse follows the order, reason is detached from it, let's take as an example the case of Chief God Eques, who by using his order to stop Anos, Anos destroyed the reason of Eques' order, rendering it useless, you can see the description in Anos' MEOCD.

And the same with venuzdonoa, which is able to destroy everything by having the order of destruction, but it was the method of creation using MEoCD that gave it the power to destroy reason, that's why it is able to function in the deepest layers of the silver sea being an order of a layer 0 world. So while order that is laws and concepts govern the world and everything is governed under order, reason is capable of destroying order and what is governed by it. You can even see here what DT thinks Logic/Reason would be in MG.

A separate idea, wouldn't it be smart to add a "notable feats" section on Anos/Graham's profile, since I feel like this definitely would be a good one, since I can see your point that it needs to be mentioned, but doesn't exactly meet the criteria for me.

Like the one that already exists in the Venuz profile? Hmm, I honestly don't think it would serve the purpose, as it would not be different as such from P&A.

 

[Dereck03]

Okay, after a chat with MG Folks, I think I'd better drop the Regen Neg and add the justification to Graham's HGR to have the denotation.

So at the end it would be

Regeneration (High-Godly. Graham can regenerate from nonexistence even after his source (concept) is destroyed. Additionally, Venuzdonoa, who is even capable of negating the immortality and regeneration of the gods. was unable to permanently destroy Graham due to his nothingness physiology whose is unbound of reason/logic)

@Dark_Soul20189 @Berga14 does this is fine to you?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Type 1 Madness is from affecting the brain (biological), type 2 is using mental based powers to drive the person insane (mind manipulation), type 3 is what it is but at the same time every madness user on the wiki that causes it through some unknown means that doesn't fit type 1 or 2 always falls into type 3. That's the way it has always been.

On the issue of graham, yes once venuzdonoa is sheathed Logic is restored but the thing is even after it's put away, whatever Venuzdonoa destroyed (killed) stays dead. Graham is only unable to regenerate while Venuzdonoa isn't in play I guess so he still has resistance and Venuzdonoa gets 1 layer of immortality negation.

 

[Tatsumi504]

On pain manipulation, I'd say it is resistance too. Anos didn't feel the pain until the curse overpowered his anti-magic so it's both resistance and pain tolerance

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Okay, after a chat with MG Folks, I think I'd better drop the Regen Neg and add the justification to Graham's HGR to have the denotation.

So at the end it would be

@Dark_Soul20189 @Berga14 does this is fine to you?

Yeah, looks good, you can put me in agree now.

 

[Berga14]

Graham is only unable to regenerate while Venuzdonoa isn't in play I guess so he still has resistance and Venuzdonoa gets 1 layer of immortality negation

i guess there are some problems here

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Disagree FRB































Agree FRA