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Android 17 temporarily downgrade.

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Steel_Justice

Steel_Justice

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I think that Android 17 as Gohan should be degraded temporarily or at least until it starts tournament of force between the 12 universes. Or since he fought with Goku we could situate as 4-B until they have more evidence regarding their power. Obviously in temporary.

Sorry for my English xd
 
What's the use of downgrading him to 4-B when he was clearly seen fighting evenly with SSB Goku, while both were holding back.
 
I'm not opposed to the Android 17 upgrade, but it is clearly inconsistent with how we're treating Roshi, Gohan, etc.
 
Ryukama said:
I'm not opposed to the Android 17 upgrade, but it is clearly inconsistent with how we're treating Roshi, Gohan, etc.
Click to expand...
I mean the Goku vs Gohan Fight and the Goku vs Android 17 fight were quite different.

Goku vs Gohan has Gohan hit SSB Goku like twice.

17 vs Goku had 17 match SSB Goku evenly, and neither was going full power.
 
That's arguably worse, since Goku explicitly stated he isn't going full power against 17 unlike Gohan where that's not stated.

Like I said, I don't mind 17 being upgraded. But the consensus was to hold off on DBS upgrades until the tournament. No matter how seemingly obvious some of them may be. This is clearly going against that.
 
But we don't know how much they held back at all. Also you have to remember his upgrade was long '''before''' we made that rule and long before the whole Gohan fiasco. Plus we agreed to leave 17 be on that whole Gohan Downgrade thread awhile back.
 
But we don't know how much they held back at all.
This only makes scaling 17 to a restrained Goku even worse. We know he held back, but don't know by how much. Making this feat seem more unquantifiable.

Also you have to remember his upgrade was long before we made that rule and long before the whole Gohan fiasco.
Yeah. So we now change 17 to be consistent with the rule change.
Plus we agreed to leave 17 be on that whole Gohan Downgrade thread awhile back.
When did other staff say 17 staying was fine? I don't remember seeing that after rereading those god awful threads. And again, it seems very off when we have adamantly agreed to hold off on Roshi, Gohan, etc. To the point where even a rule was going to be made on it.
 
I don't care if people agreed on the 17 upgrade before we made that rule.

We have now made a rule to keep from upgrading DBS characters until the tournament starts. Others have not gotten upgraded yet, nor will be upgraded yet even if their upgrade was rather obvious.

Keeping 17 is clearly inconsistent with this new rule.
 
Let me ask you then. How many have already had an accepted upgrade beforehand. Are we gonna downgrade Bergamo, Toppo, Caulifla and Kale as well? Those are now also in violation of this rule.
 
This rule is clearly referring to upgrading the U7 fighters before the tournament. Also, at least by your own statements, 17's upgrade isn't much more solid than Gohan's at the moment.
 
I feel as though if 17 already has an accepted thread, he can keep the stat change. Whether you care or not if he had a thread or not doesn't change my point. Not trying to be rude btw. We'll let the others decide. This'll cause another huge mess over something so small.
 
I don't care about this "accepted thread", because it doesn't have relevance to how things are now.

Me simply not caring isn't what I claim to change your point. I didn't try to dismiss your argument on the grounds that "I don't care." It's my actual reasons that change your point.

  • We have made a new rule to not upgrade U7 fighters until after the tournament.
  • Other U7 fighters have not been upgraded due to this rule.
  • Therefore, 17 keeping this upgrade is inconsistent with this rule.
  • Plus your arguments for keeping the upgrade have only made this look worse. Such as pointing out that Goku explicitly held back to an unknown degree.
I agree with letting others decided though.
 
We upgraded Roshi, "At least Planet level (Matched and defeated Tien Shinhan when brainwashed and devoid of morals)"

U guys can downgrade 17 if u want.
 
Oh. I thought we agreed not to upgrade Roshi. Kinda seems like this new rule is useless if we're only applying it to Gohan then. But regardless I'm fine with what the rest of staff decides.
 
-The rules says characters in general and thus the likes of Toppo, Kale, Caulifla, Basil and Lavenda also need to be placed at unknown

-Roshi has

-So does everyone else that isn't from U7.

-Using the same arguments everyone else supported. May not be right. That's for them to decide. So I'll wait. Also no hard feelings if I sounded aggressive.
 
  • The semantics of the rule itself aside, when this rule was proposed and supposedly enforced, it was with the intent of only not changing the U7 fighters like this.
  • Like I said then, fine. But why even have this rule when it applies to one character.
  • Read first point.
  • Appeal to popularity or "everyone else supported this" doesn't work. Those arguments you used make the 17 upgrade seem worse.
 
17 "forced" Goku to become SSB , which Goku directly implies. No mentioning of him needing to because of 17's stamina & SSJ1's stamina issue ( This is inconsistent .Yes, someone hit me with that argument before. ) . He is SSB Level, but to what degree is unknown, as both held back . 17 has the most implications of being on this level, even more than Gohan during episode 90 . I am fine with the others being rated as Unknown until the tournament reaches it's conclusion, but i personally feel like Gohan & 17 should be left alone due to Dragon's and Radical's reasons .
 
-But then the rule should specify this otherwise by what you've said every character introduced should be downgraded to be consistent. -I dunno. I didn't do the upgrades.

-I literally said these arguments may not be right and that is for them to decide and that I'll wait.
 
Technically, we shouldn't upgrade/downgrade any DBS character until the ToP ark is finished. Also, wouldn't upgrade Roshi from that fight, he received a temporal boost due to witchcraft, similar way how the other disciples received it.
 
Alright. Others can decide. But I still feel this is inconsistent with how people claimed this new rule was going to be enforced. And if everyone but Gohan can get an upgrade, then why even have this rule? Just don't upgrade Gohan for now and take off the unnecessary rule that isn't really being applied.

That's all I really have to say about this.
 
I agree this only seems to be a burden on Gohan(I support 3-A Gohan btw)
 
Bergamo and Toppo cases are totally different, since the first managed to reach that level by their ability, and the second is a candidate to take the post of destroyer-God, Caulifa and Kale, I totally agree with the range have now since it is logical.
 
But no matter how obvious it is, it shouldn't be allowed. That was a big argument for no 3-A Gohan.
 
"Also, wouldn't upgrade Roshi from that fight, he received a temporal boost due to witchcraft, similar way how the other disciples received it"

Ive watched the fight multiple times, this was never implied.
 
I think it was implied and also showed the disciples being stronger than before, don't see why that wouldn't work in Roshi, also, a DBS writer "comfirmed" this in twitter.
 
Well people update Roshi's key if they wont but the fact he said "'''I think'''" is weird as well as the fact no one said it on the episode.
 
Really!? 17 got downgraded... Oh well, I still think there was no point but its been change now so there's nothing I can do about.

This thread might as well be closed then.
 
@Steel Even though I agree with this downgrade, this has not been decided upon by staff yet. Please don't go making major changes to huge pages like that on your own without a consensus being made.
 
It's fine. Thanks for understanding.
 
17 has been training, he was capable of forcing Goku into SSB proven when Goku stats he didn't intended to use that form, he then proceeded to equally fight Goku until they stopped and both stated the other was holding back and before their fight while Denda was bringing Goku to 17 he stated that if 17 was still evil he would still be a threat to them.

17 in my opinion is 3-A for sure.

The rule states to not create any DBS upgrades until after the Universal Survival Arc is over but 17 was upgraded before this rule was even created. So he wasn't effected by it but if you guys want to downgrade him like Gohan and wait be my guess.
 
Well, we decided to upgrade Android 17 before we decided to wait with any further upgrades. In addition, he is an extremely clear-cut case, so I think that his profile should stay as it is.
 
I know 17 was decided upon before this rule. I was saying since the rule was changed, to change 17's profile to be consistent with the rule.

And from the way others were describing it, with Goku supposedly explicitly holding back to an unknown degree, that made it seem less sold than say, with Gohan.

I'm also unsure why we have this rule when so far out of the 3 times it's been applicable, twice we made exceptions. Though I suppose it's fine to just wait for the most part and perform upgrades if they're more obvious.

But regardless, I'm fine with keeping it as it is if others are as well.
 
Well, as far as I remember, Android 17 was able to hold his own against SSB Goku for an extended period of time, and we simply decided to wait with any further character upgrades, not to reverse previous ones.
 
Alright. Should this thread be closed then?
 
That may be best, yes.
 
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