Alphamon vs. Odin (Fortissimo)

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

The fight takes place in a desolate planet.

Alphamo: 2

Odi: 1

Inconclusive: 1

Both are bloodlusted, otherwise Standard Battle Assumptions apply.

This is Digimon Adventure Tri Alphamon and Full Power Odin. Speed is equalized. Who wins?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Odin's lack of Acausality is his downfall here. Alpha Infoce will utterly destroy him. Same with Digitalize od Soul. I say Alphamon Low-Mid-Diff.

 

[PaChi2]

Tri Alphamon doesnt start out with Alpha Inforce, tho.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Neither does Cyber Sleuth Alphamon, yet we treat Digimon as character who will use any ability in character.

 

[PaChi2]

Okay, if anyone knowledgeable on Odin can explain how his Conceptual Manipulation and Law manipulation work, he may have my vote.

He may not be acausal, but those two abilities can counter Alpha Inforce if they are good enough.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I mean killing him in the past is literally listed as his weakness and he's have to know what Concept to destroy.

 

[PaChi2]

Law manipulation can get rid of such a weakness (if PIS/CIS isnt allowed). its effectively causality manipulation. And concept manipulation can make "past" disappear.

So, how good are they?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I dunno. I know nothing on Fortissimo.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Me neither. >.>

Let's wait for someone else.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

His strongest technique seems like Existence Erasure. In which Alphamon resists.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Well, maybe looking at his Notable Attacks/Techniques might help somewhat?

• Gungnir: Gives Odin the ability to control the four absolutes of the world: form/eternity, space, rules and power. Gungnir is the strongest conceptual weapon in the series, and is used mainly for creation.

• Die Walkuere: The absolute rule of space. Allows Odin to create and control space and dimensions. He can create parallel worlds, worlds that can rewrite the real one, killing anyone in the process, and completely new pocket universes such as Valhalla. He can recreate space that has been destroyed, teleport, divide pocket dimensions, and even create infinite space to trap his enemies, as nothing can travel through infinity. Odin can easily surround himself with a spatial barrier that teleports away attacks, and can make distance irrelevant through erasing it.

• Siegfried: The absolute rule of rules and laws. He can create new laws and change the old. In his own words, "I can drive a wedge between the universal gravitational pull of this world so that even the flow of time would change". He can use it to immobilize his enemy, manipulate time, control magic, stop others from using their abilities, negate immortality, and so on. This power works best in tandem with his abilities to create his own worlds, as anyone who breaks rules there will contradict their laws and be erased from existence.

I think those are the relevant things apart from his Regenerationn. If they don't, we'd probably have to wait for someone familiar with him.

 

[PaChi2]

He can, then, avoid getting AlphaInforce'd.

Voting for Odin due to incredible versatility.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Okay, so one for both.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Assuming he uses it and hits with it.

To counter Alphamon can use Alpha Inforce right away or seal him with Digitalize of Soul. Alphamon is also resistant to almost all of his hax. Note how he has no knowledge of Alphamon's ability and so he has no idea what concepts to hit since he won't even see Alpha Inforce.

Odin immoblizes Alphamon, Alpha Inforce automatically kicks in. Has to create the world to do so as well.

Time Manipulation Useless on a Royal Knight.

Existence Erasure. Useless on a Royal Knight.

Spatial Manipulation. Useless on a Royal Knight

Death Manipulation. Also useless on a Royal Knight

Matter Manipulation. Useless on a Royal Knight.

Soul Manipulation. Once again Useless on a Royal Knight

His Conceptual Manipulation only encompasses few concepts, most of which won't effect Alphamon.

My vote is still Alphamon low-mid diff.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Assuming he uses it.

Are you talking about Siegfried? If so, it doesn't say he has to necessarily create a world. Just that Siegfried's abilities work best in that situation. Though, I don't think Odin having to create a world would mean anything. He would likely do that effortlessly, I think.

 

[PaChi2]

Okay, dunno if this is in character for odin to do but:

Create a new world. Alpha inforce wont reset this world because Law Manipulation is there to prevent it, because Causality Manipulation and Law manipulation counter each other. And maybe its possible for him to counter Alpha Inforce even if its not a new world, dunno.

Then it will be try and error until odin manages a way to kill Alphamon. The guy has de the hax to do so and mid godly regen. Can prevent Alphamon regen, has Reality manipulation...

Also, Alphamon cannot seal someone resistant to soul manipulation that easily.

Alphamon lacks a clear win condition if Alpha Inforce and Digitalize of Soul are countered.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Alphamon resists Causality Manipulation. Also would he know to change the laws of causality when he doesn't even know his opponent has that power?

Alphamon resists Reality Warping.

Alphamon can literally seal souless beings.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Argh, I'll just make them bloodlusted until someone familiar with Fortissimo gets here and tells us what Odin does.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Makes it more likely to use Alpha Inforce instantly making. Odin won't even know what happened due to its effects. So before Odin can do anything, he's dead.

 

[PaChi2]

No, no, this isnt causality manipulation used to damage Alphamon, but to prevent Alphamon from getting an advantage with his.

For example: if Alphamon were a fire pokemon using flamethrower, Odin (who in this case would be... a plant pokemon) would counter with his own flamethrower to avoid being hit with Alphamon's.

Edit: Odin has resistance to RW and soul manipulation, I dont see Alphamon pulling Digitalize that easily.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Well, like you said we assume Digimon will use their haxxed abilities in character, and we don't know what Odin does for now, so it's probably better like this.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"No, no, this isnt causality manipulation used to damage Alphamon, but to prevent Alphamon from getting an advantage with his."

How will he stop an attack that finishes him off the moment the fight starts? His lack of Acausality screws him here. Especially now that they are bloodlusted.

 

[PaChi2]

Because Odin has Law Manipulation to prevent the Laws he manipulates are overriden by AlphaInforce. The instant AlphaInforce activates it can go:

1)It goes through and Odin gets rekt.

2)Odin can negate it and the fight continues.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Also, guys I forgot this one in case you haven't seen it.

• Goetterdaemmerung: The final absolute rule, the rule of power. It's described as the strongest of them all. After shouting "Gungnir!", Odin will fire an immensely powerful blast of raw energy. It is said that this blast obliterates theory, reason, imagination, existence, hope, despair, and strategy. Even a glancing blow was potent enough to take 70% of Reiji's power. All kinds of concepts are useless against it, and Odin can choose what he wants to destroy. It can be body or soul, the magic of others, and so on. It kills and destroys all, even air. He can change the shape of his attack, and can combine them with his rules.

Dunno if it would help though.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

He can't do that when he's already dead. Also it seems he cannot stop causality manipulation seeing as he didn't do so to protect his past self from dying. Anyway you still haven't countered what Odin can do if he's already dead the moment the fight begins.

@BFF Pretty useless since they are bloodlusted and Odin will die before he can do anything in which is the point I've trying to hit home.

 

[PaChi2]

Odin mid-diffs now that I see it.

As soon as the fight starts Odin will activate his rules and Alphamon the AlphaInforce, right?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@PaChi Again, he will be able to do nothing as he loses before the fight begins. Seriously what part of "He will not have a chance to make any action beforehand "don't you get? I am seriously getting annoyed on how many times I've repeated this.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Err, well can we just wait for what others think?

 

[PaChi2]

How does he lose before the fight begins? Its not like Alphamon can go into the past before the fight starts and kill him, avoiding fighting now with him.

"Alpha InForce: Alphamon has access to this legendary Overdrive ability, allowing him to instantly replay the elapsed battle by manipulating causality. Thus he is able to return the state of the battle back to the beginning should he somehow be defeated and allowing him to learn from his previous battles. He is also able to use this ability offensively, instantly replaying his first attack an infinite number of times and target an infinite number of points in space in an instant, making it appear as if he felled his opponent in one blow and rendering his attacks virtually impossible to dodge."

Thiis is causality manipulation of high level. Its not like Odin doesnt have his own to counter that. Im not getting where this "Odin loses before the fight starts" comes from. AlphaInforce wont work so nicely against someone who can use his own causality manip.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You understand that Alpha Inforce is instantaneous right? You understand that it is impossible to dodge right?

"To put it concisely, this ability allows Alphamon to warp causality to re-do his attacks an infinite number of times in an instant, allowing him to essentially attack an infinite number of times in an infinite number of points in space, rendering his attacks virtually impossible to dodge. In addition, this ability allows him to re-do the entire battle as many times as he wishes (usually when he would be defeated), making it virtually impossible to outright defeat him unless someone is able to use some amazingly high-tier Reality Warping, which he is known to have serious resistance to since he's unfazed by the Reality Warping, Information Manipulation, and Conceptual Manipulation abilities of Multiversal+ entities. All of these things happen so fast that outside observers would think that his opponent was instantly felled in a single stroke."

"Alpha InForce: Alphamon has access to this legendary Overdrive ability, allowing him to instantly replay the elapsed battle by manipulating causality. Thus he is able to return the state of the battle back to the beginning should he somehow be defeated and allowing him to learn from his previous battles. He is also able to use this ability offensively, instantly replaying his first attack an infinite number of times and target an infinite number of points in space in an instant, making it appear as if he felled his opponent in one blow and rendering his attacks virtually impossible to dodge."

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I saw some of Odin's threads and it seems like he uses his hax in character. So I'll remove bloodlust for now.

 

[PaChi2]

Alphamon wont be able to warp causality and get AlphaInforce through. That's what I have been trying to say. And now that they are not bloodlusted, seems easier for Odin.

Any causality attack can be instaneous. Alphainforce is just Alphamon using it efficiently, but nothing impressive for Causality Manipulators.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Alphamon wont be able to warp causality and get AlphaInforce through. That's what I have been trying to say.

Except he will. As like I said this is instantaneous and nothing on Odin's page say his is instant. The moment Alphamon uses it, the fights over. Odin won't have time to counter it. Something you don't seem to understand. You keep saying "easier for Odin" when in fact your argument does not counter mine and my point still stands.

 

[PaChi2]

Siegfried: The absolute rule of rules and laws. He can create new laws and change the old. In his own words, "I can drive a wedge between the universal gravitational pull of this world so that even the flow of time would change". He can use it to immobilize his enemy, manipulate time, control magic, stop others from using their abilities, negate immortality, and so on. This power works best in tandem with his abilities to create his own worlds, as anyone who breaks rules there will contradict their laws and be erased from existence.

Stopping others from using their abilities...?

This is Odin commanding Laws (which include the cause-effect Law), and saying to Alphamon: lol nope, you are not messing with causality, you jerk.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Matter of fact you keep saying Law Manipulation=Causality Manipulation. However, Law Manipulation=/= Causality Manipulation every time. Nothing in his moveset says he manipulates the Law of Causality.

"Stopping others from using their abilities...?"

Won't get a chance to do so.

"Easier for Odin"

Being bloodlusted had not changed anything in this match. So I don't understand how that makes it "easier" here.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"This is Odin commanding Laws (which include the cause-effect Law), and saying to Alphamon: lol nope, you are not messing with causality, you jerk."

Nothing say he manipulates that Law. Causality is only a possible use of Law Manipulation. Not an automatic use.

 

[PaChi2]

Well, odin can manipulate causality, otherwise anyone who contradicts his laws wouldnt be erased (thats a cause-effect interaction).

Actually, it should be added to his page, I will do a CRT later. Even if Law Manipulation usually covers that, as you seem to be skeptical about it, it should be specified.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That's only when he rewrites the law. Your assuming Alphamon gives him that chance do so. Nothing is stopping Alphamon from sealing him or AlphaInforcing at the start killing Odin who lacks acausality. And with all of Odin's other hax being useless here. Alphamon takes this. Especially after he literally survived a complete reset.

Once again

Reality Warping- Useless

Time Manipulation- Useless

Conceptual Manipulation- Based on the concepts listed, useless.

Law Manipulation- According to you is Causality. Useless

Power Nullification- Only useful thing here. Can be countered by sealing and AlphaInforce

Spatial Manipulation- Useless

BFR- Useless

Existence Erasure-Useless

Instant Death-Useless

Hell these same concepts can affect him. Odin has no defense for getting mind controlled nor him memories wiped clean.

This "all kinds of concepts" thing is also NLF. It is the same as saying being resistant to "All kinds of hax" It is vague with no detail.

 

[PaChi2]

And you assume Odin wont use Siegfried at the start also, preventing AlphaInforce.

Alphamon cannot get passed mid-godly regen. His sealing is the only threat to Odin, Alphamon doesnt have a way to touch Odin and seal him, all those haxes you listed as useless dont need to be used offensively against Alphamon, but deffensively as well, avoiding sealing.

Also, Odin has precognition (which alphamon lacks) making it easier to avoid getting sealed/AlphaInforced. And now they arent bloodlusted, Alphamon wont start with AlphaInforce.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So this is simple a game of who does what first. Thus making this inconclusive as it depends on who does what first. Neither can do much to each other. And I know you did not say Sealing as all Alphamon has that can hurt Odin. Odin isn't resistant to Mind Control. Or Memory Manipulation. Alphamon can just make him forget what he can even do. Allowing him to use Alpha Inforce. Their Causality Manipulations conteract making neither skills useful until one cannot counter the other.