Ace Attorney intelligence minor buff

[Buttersamuri]

Yet again I'm back. To upgrade this verse. Or at least try. From speed to intell.

It's a small one. But shouldn't Phoenix honestly be put more at Genius. Solving a 15 year old case against a prosecutor that went over 40 years without losing once do to skill. As well beating undeafeated prosecutors who can end murder cases in a few hours, and fighting forged evidence before providing evidence to prove someone guilty WHILE Proving who actually did it in a place filled with corrupt lawyers who will up and forge evidence Mid or earlier or even late trail and where like 90 percent of verdicts are guilty. Heck. The guy won a Courtcase when he had literal Amneisa. Even Gumshoe was able to solve a case that seemed hopeless to even Miles. The less intelligent ones of them are somehow able to handle what really nobody should be able to handle. I personally think Phoenix bare minimum. And likely the main cast should get Genius levels of intellect. They are smart by a gifted persons intellect.

 

[The_Smashor]

I agree.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Alrighty. Cool. That's one. Hoping others agree.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Bumping

 

[The_Smashor]

That's a bit fast for a bump.

 

[Torlikoff]

Fast bump, but I agree

 

[Buttersamuri]

I honestly don't know how long you are supposed to wait for a bump. Sorry if I did it too fast.

 

[The_Smashor]

About a day

 

[Buttersamuri]

Alright. I'll make note of that and do that.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Seems fine. Though only for Phoenix, Apollo and main prosecutors. Athena still isn't on their level (yet, I'm still believing in Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney, Capcom), and Gumshoe... well, he's Gumshoe, I don't think I need to explain why he shouldn't have the Genius ratings. Same for Judge.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Seems fine. Though only for Phoenix, Apollo and main prosecutors. Athena still isn't on their level (yet, I'm still believing in Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney, Capcom), and Gumshoe... well, he's Gumshoe, I don't think I need to explain why he shouldn't have the Genius ratings. Same for Judge.

Gumshoe solved a case not even Miles could. Best detective does it when it counts. Judge is a lot more debatable I won't lie.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Which case?

 

[Buttersamuri]

I myself forget. But it's on his page.

 

[GyroNutz]

Wright is definitely a very smart lawyer in terms of his quick, out-of-the-box thinking. In context though, it took 3 seperate asspulls for Wright to actually stand a chance of beating the case. One from Maya, one from Lotta and one from Larry.

Wright and Edgeworth are generally equals, with Edgeworth even beating Franziska in one day of trial when he was being a defence attorney. Simon Blackquill is a genius psychologist and lawyer, as well as a skilled samurai it seems. Manfred is a given; the guy went so far as to somewhat prep Yanni's pet parrot. Kristoph, post-SoJ Apollo and Mia, I'd say probably.

 

[TriforcePower1]

What the page said is that he can turn around cases. Which is most likely referring to the fact that the proof he finds is able to do that. That's not an intelligence feat.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Only because he needed evidence to prove his case. But he always tends to be right even without the evidence to prove it. The evidence and witnesses is the biggest issue he faces. He can put stories together without much to work on through sheer intelligence

 

[Buttersamuri]

Bumping

 

[Buttersamuri]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Take note that even Stephen Hawking and Leonardo Da Vinci were only Genius level according to our system. I do not think that Phoenix Wright and the other lawyers qualify for more than "Gifted" or "At least Gifted".

 

[TriforcePower1]

Yeah, it's only Genius for most lawyers. But not Gifted.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Another note is this is no ordinary lawyer. Here's normal things Phoenix faces on a case by case basis

He lives in a system where more then 90 percent of verdicts are guilty

Corrupt prosecutors who tamper and forge evidence. As well will drop new evidence mid case

The judge typically has a bias towards the prosecutors

Often a lack of evidence do to having it stolen in some form of manor

Has 3 days at most to prove his client innocent and the real crook guilty

And what always does. With every case. He disproves the lie after lie after lie and very last bit of forgery even in if dropped mid case. Prove it all wrong, then figure it who did it and prove they did it.


And he has done this when he literally had amnesia and didn't know what he was supposed to do. Meaning he picked up on all that in the missile of a case. That is insanely smart. He would be a Genius for the same reason Phoenix would be considered a genius. Mind you. Even Phoenix's ancestors worked with the literal Sherlock himself and were both highly intelligent. He had gone up against a literal Coubtry and won.

And while this one is considered non canon here. (Tho its apparently even labeled in Laytons timeline) the game just shows a consistency to the intelligence. But being comparable if not superior to Layton. And going in a system that was corrupted, filled with lies, the system changed by having several witnesses speak at once, the system have magic introduced and several bits of technology removed, and he has to keep track of what even went over 7 witnesses at once; and even noticed everytime each one of them had an Issue and got them to call it out. In a system where if someone I called a witch, everyone blindly follows in fear, Phoenix won more than once and proved people not to be a witch and who really was. And same situation. He literally was just dropped in this situation.

So with this kind of insane levels of thinking. Beating a corrupt system where a guilty verdict is almost guaranteed, due to corrupt evidence, witnesses, prosecutors, and a bias in the court, beating people who haven't lost in 40 years straight, outsmarting high tier assassins, and even have done stuff like this with Flat out amnesia on the spot, and even showing people related to him was on par with the literal Sherlock Homes himself who is genius levels by this wikis standard. And realistically, the stuff Phoenix has done compared to Sherlock in his books, should definitely grant him that spot. Cause honesty, Phoenix's cases are much crazier than Sherlock and at the very least have comparable levels of intellect. Which again is backed up by even relatives being on par with the literal Sherlock. And he handles these cases within 3 days max.

Gifted seemed way to underball. He definitely seems in the higher ends of a genius.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that this might warrant regular genius level then.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Alrighty then. If it's good. I'll change the ones who have such levels.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Yeah, it's only Genius for most lawyers. But not Gifted.

EDIT: I'm an idiot and thought Gifted>Genius.

I agree with what Butter said btw

 

[GyroNutz]

Just gonna say that I'm pretty sure the Sherlock Homes in Dai Gyakuten Saiban is a parody and isn't nearly as smart/infalliable as the original. But like I said before, Wright and all the lawyers I listed above should be Genius level

 

[Buttersamuri]

They are upgraded as such and unless someone else has something to bring up. This thread is good to close

 

[GyroNutz]

I'd much rather we only upgrade the ones I listed in my message. People like 'The Judge' should not get a Genius rating just for doing his job.

 

[Buttersamuri]

The judge isn't as quick to put details together, but he has shown he has kept up with their intellgince at time and is only made to look dumb comedically or so that the case can actually be explained. It's like how Phoenix suddenly seems to be unable to recall how to do basic things an attorney should know at the start of the game, which is only done as a tutorial of sorts. And isn't his actual intellgince. If the judge really was that dumb. He wouldn't be able to follow their reasoning with the cases, and even have called out some contridctions or issues he would see with a case. He doesn't put the details together as fast because he isn't trying to put them together. He is judging based on what the prosecutors and defense put together. He could be an defense attorney himself and as he brought up, but chose to stay a judge, which means his college years also meant he took and did extremely well in the requirements to be both a lawyer and judge which requires a doctoral. A judge of the case should realistically be at lest close to the intellgince of the people prosecuting and defending at least as well. It makes less sense to say the judge isn't at least comparable. Goofy as he is

 

[Antvasima]

What you describe only qualifies for gifted intelligence though.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Being able to see contridctions and keep up with the lawyers like Phoenix, Miles, Manfred, Fran, Ect and having the qualities and intellgince to both be later and judge which which requires extremely good College years and a doctoral for each one (which is 10 years at least.) should grant him comparable intelligence.

Everyone who does court who isn't the witnesses are relatively comparablable to each other. Including the judge. People like Lotta heart and Lary obviously don't scale. But court officials all seem to. Even the lowest of Prosecutors in the form of Payne was able to go against the recents of Phoenix.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, that is still not genius level. I am uncertain about that you have decided to upgrade the entire cast to genius level. It should only be used for the most extraordinary among them.

 

[Buttersamuri]

The lawyers are the most extraordinary of them. Like I had brought up before. The lawyers like Godot, Miles, Fran, Manfred, and the others all have intellgince that of Phoenixs level. Phoenix is just the smarter one. But not even by much. And also like the only pages we really have are Lawyer ones. Dick gumshoe is the only other person and he works next to Miles and turned a case around that Miles saw as hopeless. And this guy is doesnt give up easily and is on Phoenixs level of intelligence. I did bring up people like witnesses or side characters who don't have much to do with the court cases don't scale yes. But lawyers and main of the cast do. Phoenix is the smartest of them yes. But the lawyers of who have gone against Phoenix have been able to match his intellgince very well. Even the weakest.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that GyroNutz should evaluate which of these characters that geniunely reach genius level intelligence. You seem too overenthusiastic and not quite have a grasp on that it requires quite a lot in order to qualify.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Alright. If that's what you think.

I still stand by the lawyers should scale intellgince with each other due to them matching each other in court.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Gyro

What about Nahyuta and Godot? The former defeated Phoenix and the latter teached Mia and is generally considered above Franziska.

 

[Buttersamuri]

We really only have pages on lawyers who compared to Phoenix The only non Lawyer characters who have a page is like gumshoe. And he shows to work along side with Miles and turned around a case he saw as hopeless. Which should give him good reason to scale

Phoenix is the main genius due to reasons above

Miles consistently scales to Phoenix's intelligence

Franziska is taught by Manfred and shown to be comparable to Miles and Phoenix

Manfred is a heavy weight intellgince being beyond Miles and very comparable to Phoenix

Simon is shown to be one of the smarter ones and has given Phoenix, Apollo (someone Phoenix mentors), and Athena extremely hard times and shows he is very much on their level of intelligence

From what's said. Nahyuta Sahdmadhi beat Phoenix in court. (Not sure about the context tho. Didn't see much in this guy)

The feys had gotten knowledge and taught from Phoenix. And work alpine side him and helped him out a lot. Including Pearl in her later years

And Gum shoe works along side Miles and has turned a case aroubdbnot even Miles had hope in

And I left my reasons for The Judge scales above.

That's all the pages. And that's why the verse was technically upgraded. And the entire verse isn't actually effected by it. It's just we only have pages for such people who should scale

I "upgraded the verse" because our verse is all people who have consistently went up against Phoenix. Or scales to Miles and showing to be superior to such minds.

 

[Antvasima]

Being an excellent police officer only requires at most gifted intelligence.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Being an excellent police officer only requires at most gifted intelligence.

That's not the reason why. If he was just a police officer I would agree. But As brought up before. And Gyro did agree.

"Wright and Edgeworth are generally equals"

Miles has intellgince that's definitely on par with Phoenix. Which is why I brought up. Gumshoe was able to turn around a case that Miles saw as hopeless. That's the reason I say he scales. He managed to pull off solving a case that not even Miles saw as possible.

 

[GyroNutz]

The Judge following Phoenix and co's reasoning throughout the case is moreso to do with the former's explanation skills. There's not really any deductive reasoning done by the Judge, and the times where he does come out with something smart, it's usually met with surprise (e.g. Wright suggesting that the Judge must've taken smart pills during recess in case 3-5) showing these moments are the exception, not the rule.

I don't remember when Gumshoe turned around a case that Edgeworth deemed hopeless. I'm assuming that's from investigations? Either way, one case where a character figures something out that a smarter character couldn't doesn't mean they 'scale' in intelligence. As a semi-relevant example, in Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney, Wright completed a puzzle that Layton couldn't, yet we can all agree that Layton is definitely the smarter character between the two.

Nahyuta is probably a Genius too. He's a very skilled prosecutor, fighter and crowd manipulator as well as a quick learner (he learnt all about Soba and Soba practices in the space of one night while investigating a case). Godot... not so much. His tactics as a prosecutor are pretty much to just press the defence for evidence, his plan to save Maya was horribly flawed (although that was more of a character fault) and in Mia's first case she turned it around without Godot's help. Though he's still a decent lawyer.