Abstract, Conceptual, Metaphysical, and Higher-Dimensional Pages

[VenomElite]

I think there needs to a powers/ability page for Higher Dimensional Existence, Dimensionless Existence, and Metaphysical Existence. There's a lot of confusion going around the wiki, such as the belief that Abstract Existence applies to all of them when in actuality, "Abstract Existence" just refers to Conceptual Existence, Non-Corporeal is simply something nonphysical that lacks any real physical form. Keyvn Souza and I had a conversation in chat about how people think metaphysical = transcendental and that is factually incorrect. There is a difference between all of these terms, some of them fundamentally:

Abstract Existence - immaterial embodiment of a fundamental abstract concept, and is able to regenerate as long as the concept itself continues to exist.

Non-Corporeal - Lacks any concrete physical form

Metaphysical Existence - Related to dreams, consciousness, thoughts, etc. Not the embodiment of them, but able to exist in such realms (limiting this to just being incoporeal is flawed)

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (Questionable. Manipulation of higher spatial and temporal dimensions)

Higher-Dimensional Existence - A physical (not metaphysical or incoporeal) existence with a measurement greater than 4-dimensions (5-D and above). That is, something (more than countably) infinitely greater in size. In short, a more complex creature quantitatively and qualitatively.

Dimensionless Existence - Those whose nature is conceptually different, or even conceptually superior to the concept of dimensions, that is something completely formless, transcendental, and inexplicable to dimensionality. Spacetime Manipulation is useless against such a creature.

Basically speaking. Now I'm not saying let's be like Powerlisting and create pages for every little thing/subtle difference but there's too much confusion surrounding these terms and these types of powers/existences grant varying arrays of abilities/attributes.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Related to dreams, consciousness, thoughts, etc. Not the embodiment of them, but able to exist in such realms (limiting this to just being incoporeal is flawed)"

But why?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Non-Corporeal fills that definition just fine, creating an entirely new page for it seems unnecessary and tedious to add to the profiles it falls under.

Similarly, what's the point of pages for Higher-Dimensional and Dimensionless Existence? That's a trait inherent to every Tier 1 being, and they're self-explanitory enough (To me at least) that pages would just be unneeded.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Ever

Higher-Dimensional is self explanatory yes, but Dimensionless refers to 11-C and 1-A. Both are impossible to affect physically (even higher-dimensional physics).

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Sera

11-C is a lack of dimensions, 1-A is transcendence over dimensions.

Besides, let's be real, who ever pays attention to 11-C?

 

[VenomElite]

"Related to dreams, consciousness, thoughts, etc. Not the embodiment of them, but able to exist in such realms (limiting this to just being incoporeal is flawed)"

But why?

Because even a mere soul is incoporeal, not inhetrntly metaphysical. Since we have a trend of users listing powers and abilities without explanations, it would help diffetentiate between a metaphysical existence such as a Rosei (Senshinkan) and a incoporeal soul like a Shinigami (Bleach).

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Ven

In principle they seem like effectively the same thing, and how is a soul not metaphysical?

 

[Sera_EX]

A soul is metaphysical traditionally speaking, but in fiction a spiritual existence is treated differently than a metaphysical existence or a conceptual existence. For example, Umineko showcases all three differently.

 

[The_Everlasting]

That's very overgeneralizing fiction. I can't really think of any examples that I personally know that treat them as anything different.

 

[VenomElite]

Non/Incorporeal is just a very broad term that can apply to almost anything non-physical.

A soul can be metaphysical, but that's not always the case. Look at Soulsborne, those souls aren't metaphysical at all.

 

[DarkLK]

A soul is metaphysical traditionally speaking, but in fiction a spiritual existence is treated differently than a metaphysical existence or a conceptual existence. For example, Umineko showcases all three differently.

The soul in Umineko is informational thing that exists metaphysically and has the same nature as the conceptual beings.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Non/Incorporeal is just a very broad term that can apply to almost anything non-physical.
A soul can be metaphysical, but that's not always the case. Look at Soulsborne, those souls aren't metaphysical at all.

Exactly, hence why I think differentiating it is unnecessary.

And why's that? Also, you're using one example to say it applies to everything.

 

[Sera_EX]

@DarkLK

So they'd all be classified as the same thing?

 

[VenomElite]

@DarkLK

So they'd all be classified as the same thing?

No. They just have a similar nature.

 

[DarkLK]

@DarkLK
So they'd all be classified as the same thing?

They are different properties of the same thing. In Umineko.

 

[VenomElite]

@Ever

Soulsborne isn't the only one.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Ven

It's still not a thing all fiction tends to separate.

And how are souls in Soulsborne (It's only Dark Souls btw, Bloodborne doesn't use souls, they use blood echoes) not metaphysical?

 

[VenomElite]

It's just a nonphysical essence of a being in various cases.

Nonphysical =/= metaphysical.

 

[The_Everlasting]

How is that relevant? (I assume you were trying to say something relevant, but I don't understand what you're saying)

 

[VenomElite]

Basically:

Non-corporeal =/= greater than physics

Metaphysics (obviously) is greater than physics

 

[The_Everlasting]

Still, how are Dark Souls souls not metaphysical?

Metaphysics are a branch of philosophy, I don't see how they are "greater" than physics.

 

[Sera_EX]

Metaphysics relates to being, non-being, causality, and concepts physics cannot cover. It's not greater in terms of "power", it's greater in terms of scope (the scope of science). I.e. science cannot explain souls (soul is a concept that requires faith) but in metaphysics, souls can be explaied but it lacks concrete (a.k.a physical) evidence.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Then I don't see why we'd need to differ Non-Corporeality and "Metaphysical Existence".

 

[KinkiestSins]

What I tend to take from meta physics is anything you cannot perceive, outside of reality and transcends it would be Metaphysical. Anything loosely tied to the reality of the story is not metaphysical Anything beyond that is metaphysical/abstract.

The soul is indeed metaphysical in real life, but 80 percent of fiction tends to ignore this anyway, I am fine with non corporeal and metaphysical existence having their own pages and defintions, since at the very least fiction has a habit of separating the two. Not many verses combine them in the narrative, I think Umineko was the only one mentioned I am familiar with that uses the two seperately and also loosely unique when compared to eachother.

 

[Blade0886]

Non-corporeal and metaphysical seem to be very different in essence to me.


Non-corporeal refers simply to structures of being/matter that do not have a physical form. And non-corporeal things do exist, and are proven by science to exist. The obvious example is the force of gravity, which as far as we know, doesn't use particles of any kind in order to work(based on Einstein's relativity law of course). A close second would be neutrinos, which practically don't interact with existing matter whatsoever by their own being, rather through energy fields(most commonly the electrical field). Both gravity and neutrinos exist as non-corporeal things in our physical world.


Now contrast with metaphysical, which basically is a broad term for anything that exists within realms other than the physical(as some said earlier, for example in dreams). Metaphysical things are non-corporeal. But non-corporeal things aren't necesarily metaphysical.


The difference is simple and important.