A question about a certain tier

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

If you can do anything t hat you can do in a Dream inside of Real Life... You'd basically be God. This is why i have more problems tiering this character more than any other character.

Hello everyone . This is Seed here . After watching the Sharkboy and Lavagirl movie, i wanted to create a profile for Max. He would be a very powerful glass canon ., based on feats alone and implied powers . Here is the main problem: He is either Unknown or Impossible to Define . The powers and abilities are easy to identify , but the tier... is incredibly hard to determine. The reason why i said this is because they explicitly said in a dream, you can do anything you desire. However, it is what he gains afterward. He became a "Daydreamer" into RL, which allows him to do anything he can do in a dream , implied by the ending of it . Basically if you could do anything you can do in a dream, that would be insanely hard to quantify, because depending on the dream and what you dream of consciously/subconsciously : You can be anything from Tier 11 to Tier 1 , or even something... far more ridiculous ( Depending on the Dream ) .

I am not attempting to do NLF , not even in the least little bit . It is what the movie implied about his powers as a Daydreamer . This is a genuine concern of mine, because despite attempting to think it over several times , it lead all to the same thing " If you can do anything you can in a Dream, that means you can ignore/do anything, which in and of itself is stupid. Despite it being a Fallacy, it is what the movie implied . My real question is : Would it be safer to put him at ( Unknown ) or ( Impossible to Define. ) ?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Didn't he create the dream world? It's been ages since I watched the movie, but creating the Dream World would probably be 4-A given the starry night sky.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

He did . That's why i said he would be a very powerful glass canon at first . But that was while he was in the Dreamworld. As a Daydreamer, he could basically be able to anything one can do in a dream . There were a few quotes in the movie, ( one by Lavagirl, who obviously would know this due to not only being created by Max , but traveling to a nexus of dreams and semingly entering others dreams ) that stated that people can do anything in a dream but in reality . This is what the movie was heavily implying. That is what stumps me beyond comparison , but even if this isn't what i am making it out to be , 4-A is still plausible.

However, there is only 1 4-A feat , while there are literally 2 Narrator statements implying that the power of a Daydreamer has no limits. So... It is more consistent by technicality . I'll make the profile in a little bit, mention Impossible to Define due to the reasons above , but still mention the 4-A feat because it is significant.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

If he can do whatever he wants as Daydreamer and his power had no limits,then you can either add "possible Reality Warping in the Dream World" or "At least 4-A possibly higher" in his profile.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

At least 4-A, possibly Far Higher . Does this sound good ?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I would say it's fine but I think this needs more input especially from staff.


If you get approval from 1 or 2 staff then I think you would be good to go.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I remember this movie!!!!!! I honestly thought I was the only one here who even heard of it....

I agree with At Least 4-A but maybe we can add "Likely Far Higher" given the "no limits"? Ofc it's an NLF but at least this way we have an average minimum tier for Max and we can acknowledge his power may be far greater.

Tho isnt him being a glass-canon sort of PIS? If he can do anything from a dream in real life he should be able to make his stats the same tier via stat amping or reality warping but ofc he wouldnt do this in the movie due to plot.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'd give him the likely far higher due to the fact that the dream world likely isn't limited to just that starry sky.

Also, I'd like to know where to place Sharkboy and Lavagirl themselves. Did that thread earlier, but it got literally no traction ;_;. Anyways, Lavagirl and Mr. Electric are the ones who have good feats, with the former dispelling the darkness and the latter creating a storm with his mere presence.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Lol @Kukui. Nobody mentioned it ever here, sans Cal . I agree with Kukui though. Yes it's an NLF, but with all of the implications i can't really ignore it . He should be able to change his durability and such , but if he did, there would be no struggle or plot.

Glad to see you agree Cal .What was your tier for the Sharkboy and Lavagirl . I may do their profiles while i'm at it. Also, i noticed something. It seems that the Dream World kinda acts like a nexus to other dreams. Because if you remember, Max's Dream also has other dreams within it, and other dreamers within that dream. Which would explain Cal's reasoning. However, considering the possibly milllions of dream worlds out there that sleep at that exact moment, we cannot accurately define it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I simply meant that the Dream World could be a full universe... I don't think his durability can change, and you were right about glass cannon status.

I also remember that Lavagirl caused a volcanic eruption. I don't know where to place them yet.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Yeah, I also recall Lavagirl causing a eruption. Pretty early in the movie, too, so I might see if I can find it. Should scale to Sharkboy.

And yeah, I'm okay with "At least 4-A, possibly far higher" since his power is only bound by his imagination.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It was late into the movie, @Dark. When she was basically dead. Sharkboy threw her into a volcano to resurrect her, and she caused an eruption that dispelled the darkness clouds. But yes. It scales to Sharkboy.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm not sure about the glass canon thing honestly. Without PIS getting in the way (and the fact that Max was unware about his powers for most of the movie iirc) he should bd able to change his stats via reality warping. There are characters who have done that (Freedy and Beheeyem ring a bell). But im fine if it gets shot down.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Considering he and Linus were threatened by piranhas, raining brains, and falling to their deaths (onto a bed no less), and Mr. Electric could easily kill Max, even post-realization, I don't think so.

 

[Kaltias]

@Kukui

As far as I remember, Max hasn't done it. Treating him as a glass cannon is better imo. Also I agree with the "at least 4-A, possibly far higher"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

True but wasn't that due to Max not being aware of his powers as a daydreamer til late in the movie? And would PIS be of consideration? There wouldn't be any story if Max could just do what he pleases from the start.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He was aware by that point. This was after he was talked to by that creepy face robot and is confronting Minus.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with both Cal & Dark. He effortlessly created the Dream World, which houses a starry sky. Possibly Far Higher, as not only s it implied the Dream World is far bigger , but his only weakness in terms of RW ( Reality Warping ) power is his imagination itself . While i agree with Kukui, like they said, he hasn't shown the ability to increase his stats. I'm definitely not saying he can't ( due to his powers ), but we shouldn't give him that unless he has absolutely shown such things.

Madotsuki vs Max is a go-go baby ! YAHOO !!

 

[Kaltias]

We can call something PIS when it goes against something that was already shown, not against something that we believe.

For example, the meteor that almost killed Arceus is PIS because Arceus has shown to be tier 2. Not because we think that it doesn't make sense, but because we know it.

Also iirc, this happened also after he woke up.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree Katlias. It does not seem like PIS , but rather an instance of being an actual Glass-Canon. was there evidence of the Dream World being a Universe ?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Sorry for the very short bump . But... Well, it did clearly mention that Sharkboy was traveling the Universe to save his father , which would be in his Dream World .

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

It might be a Universe. But id rather let it stay at At least 4-A possibly far higher unless explictly stated to be a Universe.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

But it still raises the question regardless . One mentioning should be good . Plus, an children's movie like that wouldn't really outright say it is a Universe . Implications are needed in this particular case rather than direct evidence . Plus, Max personally wrote it in his Journal. Everything he writes in his journal warps reality to fit those requirements. So, if he wrote Universe in it to tell it's story... Well... It would become a Universe sized even if it was never shown to be in the first place. Everything he wrote in that journal was completely true, which explains how he created the Dream World . Keep iin mind he did not have conscious awareness of the creation of Dream World until his creations told him.

If he still had the Journal, nothing plot related would have happened. It is also worth to note that other Dreamers like himself were around the entire time, who have just as much potential as he has . However, they pinpointed on him because he was a "powerful dreamer" compared to the rest. Minus & Mr.Electric pointed this out, which is why they wanted him far more than the others. Even when Minus obtained said book, which if he wrote in it , the "Universe" would have came out of existence near effortlessly, he still viewed Max as the most powerful threat & Dreamer to that peace. I feel it is important to reference that.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

That could be the explanation for the "Possibly much higher" after the "At least 4-A"


Also if other people's Dreams are connected to the Dream World then he might possibly have Galaxy Level range or more. Possibly even Multi-Universal range

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

It wouldn't be. If each Dream is it's own separate universe. What i am about to say may seem ridiculous, but it may not be. To me, i go to every possibility, even if at first it may seem ridiculous. Now... Consider this Julian : All of the dream worlds are essentially in one area, which is the Dream World , This is evident by the fact that other dreamers are located inside of the Dream World. Consider it to be a Nexus of sorts for all the dreams that take place at night . This might explain why Minus is after Max so much. Anyways... According to what i looked up just now : There are 74.2 Million Children. Logically the majority of them should dream & sleep . There are 2-5 dreams per person. Even using a lowball... That is... a LOT of dreams per night. Obviously they can only animate a few of them . Like mentioned , Minus had the ability to control the entirety of said Nexus using the Journal, including all of the dreams themselves , which all take place on a masssively big Dream World , which essentially taps into Max's own powers. This would upgrade his range and AP by an massive amount . Despite having complete control over seemingly an Multi-Universal/Multiversal Nexus , Minus still feared Max and wanted him dead in order to erase all dreams . Does any of this.. make any sense ?

 

[Ryukama]

This is getting NLF'd extremely hard. Tier 1 and above suggestions based upon basic Reality Warping and vague hyperbolic statements. This is no different than the "Super Shenron's limitless wish" stuff. Which I'm surprised to see people who were so adamantly against that be perfectly fine with this.

At least 4-A, possibly higher (Created and has complete and utter control over the Dream World, which has shown to have numerous stars and constellations) seems fine to me.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Agree with Ryukama

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Ryukama Yeah I agree and Tier 1 is ridiculous for this. I mean If that was the case then people with Dream manipulation would suddenly skyrocket to Tier 1 or even 0.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I understand Ryukama. I am sorry to bring up those statements up from the movie. However, there are a few differences between that & this. That had no claims to it , Max has at lesat 2 claims by the narrator and a few from the movie . I did mention my previous point [ my last post. Starting with "I wouldn't be " ] about the Dream World being a Nexus for all the dreams that go on at night ( evidenced by other dreamers exisitng within the Dream World, andtheir dreams going on in this World as well ) , and despite Minus having complete and utter control over said Dream World via Max's Journal, Minus STILL feared him enough to attempt to kill him. If he wrote "Universe" in his journal when going over Sharboy's sidestory "Sharkboy searched the entire Universe for his father" , which would mean reality would warp to serve his means. Hence, the Dream World would be a Universe due to it. I am not trying to be stupid/ridciulous/wanky with Max. One, i am not completely sure how big all of those dream each are, or if they would scale to the Max's Dream World . I am just trying to sort out all of this and come up with a decent. reasoning and statistics. And where is the "Tier 0" mess came from ? I would NEVER go that far with wanking, even tier 1 was "bleugh" for me to mention.

 

[Ryukama]

Super Shenron has many statements of his wishes being limitless, that he grant any wish, etc. It doesn't mean anything for a tier. What matters is feats and far more concrete statements. Same case with Max and all his statements of having "limitless power."

Super Shenron used to be rated as purely 3-B just cause that was his size. It was only when it's explicitly stated that he can destroy a universe when 3-A came in. And after we didn't extrapolate any further since he's stated many times to be "limitless."

Unless Max has more explicit statements as to what he can do with his powers, we should go with his best feat as to not be contradictory to how we treat other people. To which Max's best feat is 4-A. I'll Command F the Sharkboy and Lavagirl script to try and find better statements.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Seed what I meant by "Tier 0" is that if that Max was Tier 1 then Dream manipulators would also be Tier 1 or perhaps even 0 depending on how much NLF is involved. I'm not saying that you are proposing such things but just saying what would happen if we accepted such NLF.


Although considering all things i would be fine with "At least 4-A possibly far higher" or "At least 4-A possibly 3-A"

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Ryukama

I see. I thought he only had a few.

I see.

Please let me know if you find something interesting. Sorry if i seemed a bit... out of hand. I will more than likely do the exact same thing. I might even rewatch the movie.

@Julian

It;s no problem. I can see now how that would be a problem.

I am fine with that too, but i am open to anything new that comes from this research.

 

[Ryukama]

"He had been travelling the universe in search of his father."

Kinda implies that Max's imaginations span a universe I suppose. I'm not too sure.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

That's why "At least 4-A possibly 3-A" could also work. But we should wait for more evidence/statements.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

That's what i was saying. I think it is legitimate, but i am not 100% sure. Maybe 80% sure, 70% at the lowest. It could effect AP & Range though. Not durbaility, due to being a glass-canon unless proven otherwise.

 

[Ryukama]

Well I know there are some artifacts within Dream World which stops the flow of time and such.

If Dream World is a separate world with its own flow of time, and is described as being a universe. And Max created and is stated to have complete, utter and "limitless" control over Dream World, that might be Low 2-C.

Although I feel like I may be extrapolating too much. I'd prefer other staff give input as well, and I am fine with whatever they decide.

Also pretty certain Max is a glass canon and never shows physical feats anywhere remotely at these levels. So whichever rating Dream World is given, it only applies to AP and Range. Not Striking Strength, Lifting Strength and Durability.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I knew from the start Max was a glass-canon . Hmm... Huh ... Low 2-C... That's definitely possible. Especially considering that other Dreams are directly connected to the Dream World, but are regarded as completely separate. It is of a similar thing to a "Nexus" of all the people dreaming at that moment Max is. Minus still threatened to destroy it all via the journals, as he said he wanted to end "all dreams" , but was only fearful towards Max. Would this suggest anything ? Especiallly if we try to calculate how many dreams are connected ?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Ryukama so he is literally a Shin Budokai Janemba Jr. in terms of durability and physical strength correct???

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Julian.

" Pretty Much "

 

[Ryukama]

@2nd I don't know. I feel Low 2-C might already be a pretty big stretch. I want to hear what others say.

@SSGJ I suppose so.