A problem with how vs debating is done here

[The_real_cal_howard]

This isn't anything too major. I just frankly have a problem with one thing with deciding results on profiles. It's that unlike pretty much every other debating site (SA, OBD, etc.), we put far too much emphasis on initial stuff rather than versatility and the other ways to put down the opponent. For example, take the Death Battle matchup Strange vs Fate. How it should be solved is like saying things like "while both have ways to put each other down, Fate has more ways, along with his power advantage." Instead, we have things like "Strange uses his hax first so wins." Basically, matches shouldn't be solved by who shoots first, but who has more and better ways to shoot. There's a reason we have faaaaaaar more inconclusive matches than we did in the past, and more than the OBD ever did, and that's because we didn't rely solely on that. And NO, this isn't related to the Cal-anti-hax thing (because I've been in an "intervention" ovo). I remember a matchup of Erza vs Tsunade back in the day. The reason Erza won was because while both had chances to win, Erza took it more times than not. If that match was done with the modern logic, it would solely be about who wins via their leading stuff and their variations matter naught. Matches are a matter of probability. There's a reason the tv show Deadliest Warrior (which is essentially us but with about real people instead of fictional characters and run by professionals) runs its tests through 100 times. A true inconclusive is if you run a scenario 100 times, both have dead equal wins, losses, and ties, but we treat it as more ties give it an inconclusive. That's not how matches work. If LeBron James played Stephen Curry in a one-on-one game of basketball 10 times, with Curry taking two games, LeBron taking one, and the rest being ties, Curry won. No one would say that the result is a tie because there were more of them.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[DMUA]

Versatility doesn't matter when you're already dead before you can use it.

A million Hax doesn't beat 1 hax that's millions of times faster.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Unless you're referrig to a passive hax, which is an entirely different ballpark, or a speedblitz, it does.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well that depends on the characters as some character dont start with their strong stuff while others do, so outside bloodlusting CIS can result in a he shoots first situation.

 

[DMUA]

Unless you're referrig to a passive hax, which is an entirely different ballpark, or a speedblitz, it does.

I'm just referring to Hax that's faster then another Hax.

If you have to touch for a Hax to work, you're completely at Mercy for a long distance incantation based hax. If you have to say an incantation, a gesture based hax is simply something you can't beat. If you have to make a gesture, a thought based hax would be faster then that. Passive is just beats all but resistance and other Passives.

Having a Hax inferior in speed to another hax isn't going to play out well when they use it immediately and you cant resist. That's what I'm saying here.

 

[Self_Love]

If your talking about a game of 21, Curry gets bullied

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Versatility does get a bit over rated tbh. When you got someone like No Name Hassan who has many different abilities, but most of them are variations on OHKO, its not as great as it originally sounds

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And said haxes takes more scenarios than to would if it weren't thought based or long ranged or etcetera. But the amount of scenarios the other person would win if they had far more haxes would pile up. If dude A can only win via this one hax while dude B can win via these twenty + one-shot worthy stats, no one outside of this site is gonna say dude A is going to win no matter how good that one hax is, even if usually leads with it. In this specific scenario, dude A would have to lead with that hax 19 out of 20 times to win, which is stupidly unlikely.

 

[DMUA]

If dude A can only win via this one hax while dude B can win via these twenty + one-shot worthy stats, no one outside of this site is gonna say dude A is going to win no matter how good that one hax is, even if usually leads with it. In this specific scenario, dude A would have to lead with that hax 19 out of 20 times to win, which is stupidly unlikely.

What I'm saying is if Dude B can't win with his 20 hax due to the speed of Dude As, then he's not going to beat him. If Dude B can win with all 20 Hax, then it doesn't matter if Dude A can just use his Hax.

1 Hax is enough to beat someone. Just having a contest of reproductive organs based on who has more doesn't mean squat when 1 means bye bye.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well that depends on the characters as some character dont start with their strong stuff while others do, so outside bloodlusting CIS can result in a he shoots first situation.

Reposting

 

[Akreious]

Except that's usually how those characters usually go Cal.

Let's say Ainz Ooal Gown is limited to JUST Grasp Heart and he has to fight Character A who has 7 Quintillion hax abilities, except all of them are touch-based.

Character A still dies because Ainz, more likely than not, opens with Grasp Heart to which Character A has no answer to.

Also, per the rules of a "Victory", they only need to open with it 6/10 not 19/20.

Frankly you're overselling the value of versatility here. Just because someone has more options to win doesn't mean that they're more LIKELY to win.

It's the equivalent of Character A is only 10-B but is triggerhappy with his Nukes while Character B has Hyperpotent Gas Attacks, Adamantium Saws, Antarctic Vibranium Arms, Passively kill anything he touches, and is High 8-A.

Character B has almost all the ways to win with all their abilities, but because Character A is REALLY triggerhappy with his nukes, Character A will win almost any scenario more often than not.

 

[Wokistan]

While versatility is a big boon, it's not going to matter against something that acts faster (thought based instakill, anyone?) Think of it as a man who has all the melee weapons in the world and all the skill to use them against some dude moderately proficient with a sniper rifle at range. The versatility of the other dude doesn't matter when he just gets shot off the bat and can't do much about it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Reason I used 19/20 instead of 6/10 is because the ability needed to take more scenarios than the opponents.

 

[Wokistan]

For example, Oryx has a ton of abilities, but generally fights would end with his taking, which is about 5 top tier hax abilities rolled into one. His versatility isn't as important as his deadly opening. Same with his daughters. They've got lots of power, but only BFR, Power null, Lawhax, and Death manip ever come into play because they're used first and if they're having a fair match with someone their opponent probably also has some opening like that.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, Ahzek Ahriman. He has a bajillion powers (look at that powers and abilities lol) yet all he needs for a lot of his matches is precog + the one specific hax he has that his opponents don't resist, or if that fails BFR. His versatility helps him out greatly in general due to having all those options, but it helps him out in the sense of having more ways to instantly kill more people. I feel like the issue here is you seem to be expecting fights to be more drawn out than they actually end up being like they are in like animes and movies and stuff. Even IRL, fights usually end quickly and decisively, or are inconclusive.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Versitility is valuable in a fight, I won't argue with you there, but the problem comes in when you have a character like Medaka who practically refuses to use any hax outside of the worst scinarios and sometimes not even then. If we argued by who has more hax or skills in general, Medaka should win 90% of her matches. Instead she practically has a 90% loss rate and, I belive, for a good reason.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The real biggest problem with Vs threads in general is that they're often treated like popularity contests rather than debates. Don't want to name examples, but put an overrated character against an underrated character, people are more often than not going to wank the former and downplay the latter. And certain people have a tendency to exaggerate or understate on how certain hax abilities work.

 

[Wokistan]

To be fair Medaka is constantly thrown against people far outside her tier and sometimes spited due to people being pissed with her getting wanked tbh. Medaka still can be used as a great example though. COnsider how much more dangerous a bloodlusted Medaka opening with AF, infinite speed amp, and bookmaker is than regular Medaka who can use all the metric ton of skills she has.

 

[Konaguna]

It's not about who takes it more times, It's about speed, and Personality, some goon like Saitama would easily lose to a lot of undertiered fodders due to him not attacking first. Characters who are faster and have better hax or will use it first are definitely going to win.

I'm honestly more irritated by other things, like saying "this guy uses mind, soul rape..." while completely ignoring the abilities of the other character. I also find it disgusting that speed is always equalized because the tiering of the debating relies solely on AP and not hax and speed. I mean it's fine for indexing but definitely not for VSdebating.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Versatility is something that only goes in once things get into the details, like intelligence.

Matches are very rarely actually close, as usually ability or power wise there is a very clear gap.

Heck, consider how few debates bring up the point of fighting style.

Relative to how big gaps in most fiction battles are all humans appear to have the same power.


In any case I wouldn't agree with the approach of picking who wins more often than not.

What one should try to do is deduce what would happen, instead of thinking up several possibilities of what could happen and picking whoever wins more.


In that regard inconclusive happens either if neither character can take each other out or if we lack sufficient information to tell how the scenario would play out. Thinking up a lot of different scenarios, of which one doesn't know how probable they are, is just not a satisfying solution to that. Dare to acknowledge not knowing.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If I put a bloodlusted Medaka against say, a bloodlusted Ainz Ool Gown, I'd firmly give it to Ainz solely for having more abilities to put her down. Both have chances of winning, but Ainz'd have more.

 

[Konaguna]

If I put a bloodlusted Medaka against say, a bloodlusted Ainz Ool Gown, I'd firmly give it to Ainz solely for having more abilities to put her down. Both have chances of winning, but Ainz'd have more.

I'ts about who uses what abiltiy first and who resists what or can not be damaged by a certain ability

 

[Wokistan]

That would depend on if Ainz can cast stuff on thought that kills her, because Medaka can thoughtcast infinite speed and do literally everything from there.

 

[Konaguna]

The real biggest problem with Vs threads in general is that they're often treated like popularity contests rather than debates. Don't want to name examples, but put an overrated character against an underrated character, people are more often than not going to wank the former and downplay the latter. And certain people have a tendency to exaggerate or understate on how certain hax abilities work.

I agree with this, popular verses here get way more attention and usually win unless the other character is broken af

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I just used a random character example. The people who I were thinking of who had more hax abilities don't follow my logic as they either couldn't put her down or she couldn't put them down (i.e., Mewtwo for the former and Lavos for the latter)

 

[Konaguna]

That would depend on if Ainz can cast stuff on thought that kills her, because Medaka can thoughtcast infinite speed and do literally everything from there.

Speed is equal so thoughts wouldn't really matter. if speed is equal then all speeds are equal

 

[Wokistan]

In terms of relative speed. Thinking is faster than other actions, so if Ainz can't kill her with a thought she'd win. This is kinda off topic though.

 

[Akreious]

It depends on the characters, but Cal I think you're missing the point.

If Character A starts with a hax 80% of the time that will instant kill Character B at a range while Character B's EVERY MOVE can 1-shot Character A in close range or is slower than Character A, Character A will still win despite Character B's every ability and every action having the potential to instant kill.

 

[Konaguna]

In terms of relative speed. Thinking is faster than other actions, so if Ainz can't kill her with a thought she'd win. This is kinda off topic though.

But wouldn't that fall under somekind of reacting speed which would get equalized anyway?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That being said, I'm actually against the banning of disabling certain abilities; at least it should be legal to ban weapons. Not everyone wants to be Death Battle, some people want it more like World Martial Arts Tournament setting with no killing allowed. That being said, sometimes having a stage effects the match a lot, and there are certain stages in fiction specifically designed to nullify hax abilities and all that. Disabling abilities or weapons is really no different than speed equalization. Tiering system is a defining feature, so equalizing tier should be banned of course.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fixed typo

 

[Wokistan]

I disagree with abilities, weapons it depends. I made a thread with an Eversor assassin at tier 8-B, and did not allow melta bombs because those things can destroy tier 6 vehicles. Eversor Assassins aren't exactly known for melta bomb usage, saying that the particular Eversor happens to not have any doesn't drastically alter their character. On the other hand, say a character fights with a sword that gives them abunch of magic powers and abilities and for whatever reason immortality. I don't like the idea of being able to make that dude fight a guy with a rake instead and ban his sword, as it dramatically alters the character in several ways. (Must use a fighting style they know nothing about, far less powers/abiltiies, worse survivability, etc)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Akr. Then they trade blows. Dude A is vaporized from the sheer power of Dude B's blast while Dude B is mindwiped via Dude A's hax.

 

[Konaguna]

I also disagree with banning abilities, it makes a match seem one sided, as for weapons idk, and I'm also against constant speed equalization.

 

[Wokistan]

In close range being the important part. Dude B one shotting with everything there is irrelevant if they're usually killed at range first. As for Konaguna, relative speeds are still preserved, actions that are on thought are still faster than ones that need hand motions and stuff.

 

[PsychoWarper]

(Oh ok removed the comment)

Hmmm well personally I am for the banning of disabling certain abilities for it to be offical as then you cant really say that Character A beat the Character B if you disable Character Bs main abilities (Like banning 682s or Reinhards immortality) but I do understand your reasoning.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I do think versatility is important, but if all the abilities are basically the same with only slight differences then they may as well be the same move. For example, Sure Gilgamesh may have basically infinite different Noble Phantasms, most of them are just OHKO or share basically the same function. But he also has many different hax that are unique. Let me contrast:

• Boneless, cuts through the enemy with no resistence and like they have no bones. Kills in basically one blow
• Azrael, causes death if it lands. kills in one succesful blow
• Caladbolg II, spirals space and bypass durability. Doesn't even kill in one blow
• Golden Axe, cuts space and bypasses durabilty. doesn't even kill in one blow
• Gae Bolg, negates Regenerationn
• Gae Buidhe, negates healing
• Gae Dearg, negates and bypasses magic
• Rule Breaker: Exorcises magic
• An Anti Magic Scythe
• Black Keys, conceptually negates the undead and regen, and binds the target in place when it hits their shadow
• Literally about a good hundred variations of homing attacks that deal high damage
• Trap of Argalia, when hit it dematerializes his target's legs temporarily
• etc. etc.

Basically, Gil has almost infinite weapons. Going by the versatility argument, he should win almost every single match. In fate, it is actually one of the reasons he is regarded as the strongest servant, but its more due to his ability to counter any ability than it is for him having a lot of different ways to kill his enemies.

If you look at his wins, he actually usually wins because he has many counters to other abilities like solid defensive hax and resistences. And then, in addition to that, he has a few really solid offensive hax that get him wins. A few of these are as follow:

• Ea, existence erasure that basically makes it like the opponent was never there and can bypass defensive hax
• Phantams Punishment, a knife that attacks with the concepts of severing and binding that will destroy the targets internal energy network if it so much as grazes one of their attacks that has any of the targets enegy in them it conceptually destroys and restores their targets body in a way that makes it unusasble even if it can somehow heal
• Ascalon, a sword that protects the user from all harm and when reversed bypasses all defenses and durability
• Enkidu, chains that bind and seal the target regardless of their strength but instead does a divinity check

In a nutshell, its quality over quantity. If you can counter everything the target hax, then you just need one good solid way to win and you are good.