a neighbor against a bone boi.

[Dangeroustaco]

The player can react to All-Star Zombies charging at hypersonic speed. Don't know how this is affected by speed equalization since it's reaction speed we're referring to, but 0.3 seconds seems more than enough. If ice-themed plants won't work to freeze Sans, the player can probably use Contain-Mint instead, which has a side effect where every zombie on screen is temporarily stunned. I mean, "stunned" as in "completely immobilized". They stand completely still, almost as if time has stopped flowing for them, like they're in a suspended state of animation. A deer in headlights but even more motionless. I don't know how it works, it just does, and it's certainly not a freezing feat, the Contain-Mint has nothing to do with ice, so it doesn't matter with the whole point of Sans lacking fluids. What's more is he can be kept immobilized with the use of a Stunion, and its stunning bad breath would be amplified by the temporary presence of the Contain-Mint, which boosts all stunning-type plants. With this, the player will buy way more than enough time to use a Cherry Bomb.

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

serious transmutation were it not for the wind of the ice age, zombies can survive the wind that turns them into ice statues and even come out without being affected and ice plants can affect this very zombie, unless sans has exploits of low temperature resistance compared to these, sans will be affected.
sans uses his teleports, thyme warp takes care of that and once he does that, sans will go back to where he was, and as said, contain-mint immobilizes omnidirectionally and as it's not an attack you can see either, sans would only be fired or "frozen".
and actually also that it prevents the player from transmuting sans into an imp?
the player could also decrease the speed of sans.
The player can also give the nutrient effect to shadow shroom and poison sans. https://youtu.be/Kb6wiCKeWiI

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I still wasn't answered on why Sans would fight with the plants.

He can teleport other people too, against their will. And with speed equal 0.3 seconds is what 0.3 seconds would be by a normal human's standards, so hypersonic speeds don't matter. And by a normal person's standards those are not enough to really acknowledge the existence of the bones and then use something to counter them.

Stunning Sans should not stop bones that he already "fired" and they would damage on can't act regardless, so reacting to bones under him with paralysis is not going to save the player.

Tuht, that makes no sense. If they are turned to ice blocks, they don't resist it. And from what is said above, it's not freezing but literally paralysis inducement, which has it's own plethora of problems.


My problem is again that the player and it's plants have limited range of their own, and assuming that they can put down more than one or two plants before Sans just teleports to them and destroys their soul is baseless. They don't react to every wave of zombie by Rewinding right away, so that's not really a reason either.


You can't just assume they will use just the right combination of abilities when they have zero knowledge of Sans, and this fight would be done in less than a few seconds.

 

[FloweryAlex]

Wow, thut, you surely don't seem biased here. It's fine to want a character to win, but removing weaknesses willy nilly isn't something you can do.

Regardless, I'm just going to say you are all acting like the player knows what to do, which they don't. They have the time to put down one plant before Sans teleports to them, and half a second before they die after that, and the player doesn't know that.

They think Sans is 4km away, so they won't be preparing to use abilities in a second, they'll be putting down a plant and then notice THAT Sans is just there in their face.

 

[Dangeroustaco]

I still wasn't answered on why Sans would fight with the plants.
He can teleport other people too, against their will. And with speed equal 0.3 seconds is what 0.3 seconds would be by a normal human's standards, so hypersonic speeds don't matter. And by a normal person's standards those are not enough to really acknowledge the existence of the bones and then use something to counter them.

Stunning Sans should not stop bones that he already "fired" and they would damage on can't act regardless, so reacting to bones under him with paralysis is not going to save the player.

Tuht, that makes no sense. If they are turned to ice blocks, they don't resist it. And from what is said above, it's not freezing but literally paralysis inducement, which has it's own plethora of problems.


My problem is again that the player and it's plants have limited range of their own, and assuming that they can put down more than one or two plants before Sans just teleports to them and destroys their soul is baseless. They don't react to every wave of zombie by Rewinding right away, so that's not really a reason either.


You can't just assume they will use just the right combination of abilities when they have zero knowledge of Sans, and this fight would be done in less than a few seconds.

If reactions are also reduced to human level, how will Sans dodge attacks like he always does in the game?

Regardless...

In the situation that they do have Thyme Warp selected for the level and a zombie is about to enter the house, this plant is their most likely reaction and last resort to send the zombie away from the house. In the event Sans teleports in front of the player (whom is not even inside a house now) to be in range of bone danmaku, since they have access to all plants, he'll throw down a Thyme Warp so Sans and his attacks will be teleported back in the direction he came from. When a Thyme Warp is present, all zombies are briefly paralyzed as the plant does its little dance for a couple seconds or so, before the zombies are dropped off at the right side of the screen. This gives enough reaction time that the player will realize from Sans' ability teleport that he's a fast opponent, so he'll have his finger hovering waiting to drop a Contain-Mint the moment Sans is released from stasis after the Thyme Warp finishes teleporting him backwards.

And you seem to have misunderstood something. The Contain-Mint and the plants that it boosts are where the paralysis inducement comes from. But the ice-manipulating plants such as Iceberg Lettuce and Ice-Shroom still work by freezing opponents. There's a difference. But I gave up arguing about ice plants since you disagree about them being able to encase Sans in an ice block. So now I'm resorting to stunning plants such as Stunion instead of ice plants like Iceberg Lettuce; using paralysis instead of freezing.

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

and also another thing, as sans fights against multiple attacks that can not be seen? as a series the nutrient effects of imp pear, poison shroom. enchant-mint skills, contain-mint, winter-mint, poison-mint?
and even if sans is very close to the player nothing prevents it from driving him away with the telekinesis and the telekinesis of caulipower.
Sans also doesn't deal with speed reduction.
The only thing sans can do is kill the player with soul-hax, which is not instantaneous.
and sans will really attack the player first, seeing that it's the plants that attack him that surely attack them before the player.
And we can't say that the player won't go with his hax's but dangers knowing that he has access to all the plants, then he will surely go with the best hax's.
and first of all, this is equal speed so the player as sans has the same reaction right?

 

[Dangeroustaco]

They had a point about human level reaction vs 0.3 seconds to do something about it. But the feat of reacting to All-Star Zombies even being mentioned on the profile seems to imply that the player here is supposed to be composite of anybody who has ever played the game, its sequel, or Heroes, and I know that not all players can fully react to a charging All-Star in time. If speed equalization gives him human level reaction, shouldn't it relatively be peak human reaction? There was one time (in a Physics class of all places) I heard that average human reaction speed is 0.2 seconds, and I tested to be even better at 0.11 (possibly due to being a gamer). As for the rest of the 0.3 seconds we have to work with, I know that some of the best players can tap and drag the seed packets pretty quickly, and can also make pretty fast, probably peak human decisions depending on the Zombies' actions. Overall the neighbor reacting and planting a Thyme Warp (again, a likely response in the situation) in the 0.3 seconds doesn't seem too far-fetched. Ever watched a speedrun on just about anything, especially when something unexpected happens and the runner has to make a quick decision? The human brain is faster than you think it is.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Well, yes and no. Yes because it's possible to put them down that fast, but no because it's not necessarily canon.

 

[Dangeroustaco]

What do you mean it's not canon? The All-Star feat is right there on the profile. Speed equalization reduces hypersonic to human level, but we're now assuming peak human due to the nature of most PvZ players being able to react pretty quickly to certain situations in gameplay. Namely that of zombies about to enter the house, in which case Thyme Warp is a very appropriate reaction.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

We have no proof that it's BEEN done, but we have proof that it CAN be done.

 

[Dangeroustaco]

We have no proof that it's BEEN done, but we have proof that it CAN be done.

???

And yet here we are, it clearly states on the player's profile that he can react to All-Stars. It must be canon to be accepted by Vs Battles Wiki.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I meant placing fast, not reacting to All-Star Zombies. And I know, I PUT it on that page.

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

bump

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Their reaction speeds are equal. However, if you teleport Ed to someone and stabbed them from underground they would not get to react regardless of being equal to you in speed.


What would happen here is that attacks would be coming out from under the player, and they wouldn't really get to compute with that before the bones touch them long enough to kill them.


Arguments of "the player puts down this plant to counter what Sans does" have the fundamental problem that the player can't just stop and think through what to use. They don't have the time to just map out which plants to put where, which plants to start with, they can't see Sans teleport ing and just start thinking what plant should be used to counter him.

Sans appears, Bones are moving in from under their feet to kill them, and if they don't move away fast enough, they die. Stopping to put down a plant would kill them.


And no, the human brain can't make do all those things at once. Speed runners know nearly everything in advance and have the zombies' abilities memorized. They also start mentally prepared and with plans already formed. None of that is true here.

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

Well, sans can kill the player with his bone the problem is that it is not instantaneous, and even if he succeeds in hitting it, the player still has time in which he can kill sans thrown against some wall or the ground with his telekinesis.
and both have the same speed, the player will still have time to plant a plant with hax's and most players occupy stunion or contain-mint plant.
and sans couldn't dodge an attack he can't see either.

 

[Dangeroustaco]

I'm starting to lose interest in this thread because I tried to make all these points about the players' reaction times, and it seems Ricsi and TUHT can keep going at it for weeks.

But I think I have one more trick up my sleeve. Didn't you say equalization brings their movement speeds down to human level, but their reaction speeds only change in relativity to how much their movement speeds were changed and the difference between the original values? Because although the profile states that the neighbor is hypersonic for reacting to All-Stars, this is a reaction feat based on planting a plant in response to the All-Stars, I don't see how this is a feat for base movement speed. With no actual movement feat due to always hiding inside his house, we can only assume the neighbor's original movement speed is human level. So if his movement speed is already human level, causing there to be no net change when it's equalized, doesn't that mean the reaction speed stays at hypersonic?