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Actually, low end eruptions have been calced at consistently 7-C.
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6-A/High 6-A Monster Hunter upgrade
- Thread starter ShiroyashaGinSan
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Based on our baseline of Mount St Helens eruptio
Mr. Bambu
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This is besides the point. Point is, Agnaktor has, in no way, anywhere near this level of power except when abusing the power of a volcano. He never shows that. Would be like calling base Thanos Tier 2 because infinity gauntlet.
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I agree with Bambu here. It's just a safer lowball.
Mr. Bambu
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If anyone has any idea on how to calculate surface area of a giant fish thing and do surface area heat calcs, one might be relevant for Lavasioth (a recurring monster that scales to early game Hunter that swims in lava, and emits lava on the ground as it moves, and can spit lava). Noteworthy other low-tier feats would include several monsters destroying large portions of stone (including Rathalos, Barroth, and Diablos) and wherever the Rathalos breath minorly changing the environment came from.
Also! Dragons in the Ancient Forest for MH:W can survive falls from the top of a mountain after being pushed off by water. Completely unscathed. I can check the height but it might take a bit.
Oh, and the last thing I can think of besides huge monsters just moving at Superhuman/Subsonic speeds, some monsters can freeze small portions of the air to ice, like Legiana, who flaps its wings and causes the air in front of it to go to what I'd baseline at -40 C (insta-freezes any moisture into ice).
Just from the top of my head, haven't looked into any of the older games' feats recently so I'm probably almost definitely forgetting stuff.
Also! Dragons in the Ancient Forest for MH:W can survive falls from the top of a mountain after being pushed off by water. Completely unscathed. I can check the height but it might take a bit.
Oh, and the last thing I can think of besides huge monsters just moving at Superhuman/Subsonic speeds, some monsters can freeze small portions of the air to ice, like Legiana, who flaps its wings and causes the air in front of it to go to what I'd baseline at -40 C (insta-freezes any moisture into ice).
Just from the top of my head, haven't looked into any of the older games' feats recently so I'm probably almost definitely forgetting stuff.
Mr. Bambu
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OH. Lotta monsters can shoot stuff from their mouths, ranging from fire to mud. In some cases this would be almost worthless (Uragaan, for example, shoots very small volumes), but Anjanath might be noteworthy, alongside beings like Rathalos. Honestly not sure if that'd be looking into, just thinking of feats. Most of these I could look into save for Rathalos' minor terraforming (not even sure where that came from) and Lavasioth surviving in lava (maybe surface area equatable to a cylinder since that is basically what the damn thing is)
GimmyJibbsJr
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I mean you technically don't see Hellblade Glavenus actually vaporizing mountains in gameplay, nor do we see other super powerful monsters levelling islands in gameplay. We primarily get these kinds of feats via lore and statements from canon sources. Like, Saber from the Fate series is rated at Mountain level for her standard strikes because of scaling to Hercules and Lancelot, but she never is seen blowing away the city she is in with these strikes and we still rate her as such. IDK why it's different here.
1. [[1]] Here you can read that when a stronger monster is fighting Agnaktor, volcanic activity AND eruptions become far more common as they fight, implying that they occur as a result of their clash (And that it isn't just Agnaktor using this to drive off other monsters because this is all a side-effect of the battle). On top of this, Agnaktor have destroyed whole villages before.
2. The monsters in MH:W don't get out of that fall from the top of the Ancient Tree unscathed. If the monster has taken sufficient damage, the fall can even kill them, meaning they most certainly don't come out unscathed.
3. [[2]] The Kirin calc DOES yield 7-A for Kirin, but here it states that Kirin is as powerful as other Elder Dragons, meaning that it could likely scale to the Island Level that most other ED's would get from Hellblade Glavenus vaporizing mountains or Oroshi Kirin freezing shit.
4. [[3]] Kushala Daora also dispersing this storm all the way to the horizon in nearly an instant also should be calced imo, could yield some good stuff
5. IDK if the Zorah Magdaros exploding and destroying the New World can really be applicable because that was only going to happen when all of it's life energy flooded into the Everstream, and that's why they diverted it to the ocean; because then it would simply die out there and not cause the everstream to blow the New World apart. Perhaps I am missing something here, but aside from that Zorah Magdaros was indeed responsible for "tectonic movement" upon its first fight near the start of the game.
6. [[4]]A standard Lagiacrus in-game is stated to make entire oceans surge with electricity, which could possibly be calcable? Maybe not? Seems a tad vague, but I figure I would drop it here.
7. Barioth (Not to be mistaken for Barroth) can create small-scale tornadoes in combat. IDK how important this would be in a calcing sense tho
This is all I can think of at the mo. Had no idea that this thread was happening lol
1. [[1]] Here you can read that when a stronger monster is fighting Agnaktor, volcanic activity AND eruptions become far more common as they fight, implying that they occur as a result of their clash (And that it isn't just Agnaktor using this to drive off other monsters because this is all a side-effect of the battle). On top of this, Agnaktor have destroyed whole villages before.
2. The monsters in MH:W don't get out of that fall from the top of the Ancient Tree unscathed. If the monster has taken sufficient damage, the fall can even kill them, meaning they most certainly don't come out unscathed.
3. [[2]] The Kirin calc DOES yield 7-A for Kirin, but here it states that Kirin is as powerful as other Elder Dragons, meaning that it could likely scale to the Island Level that most other ED's would get from Hellblade Glavenus vaporizing mountains or Oroshi Kirin freezing shit.
4. [[3]] Kushala Daora also dispersing this storm all the way to the horizon in nearly an instant also should be calced imo, could yield some good stuff
5. IDK if the Zorah Magdaros exploding and destroying the New World can really be applicable because that was only going to happen when all of it's life energy flooded into the Everstream, and that's why they diverted it to the ocean; because then it would simply die out there and not cause the everstream to blow the New World apart. Perhaps I am missing something here, but aside from that Zorah Magdaros was indeed responsible for "tectonic movement" upon its first fight near the start of the game.
6. [[4]]A standard Lagiacrus in-game is stated to make entire oceans surge with electricity, which could possibly be calcable? Maybe not? Seems a tad vague, but I figure I would drop it here.
7. Barioth (Not to be mistaken for Barroth) can create small-scale tornadoes in combat. IDK how important this would be in a calcing sense tho
This is all I can think of at the mo. Had no idea that this thread was happening lol
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I'm okay with Hellblade's since it is actually HIM doing it, stated in canon, and we have a backup feat that was accepted as also 6-C (Oroshi Kirin causing mass temperature changes in one area).
Let's look at your points:
1. Yes. Agnaktor can CAUSE it, but that doesn't mean he can cause it outside of the Volcano. That's specifically in an area where that would be possible, as in, activation of a volcano. Also, destroying villages could take a large timeline or just be a result of the aforementioned feat of activating a volcano (and not wielding its power).
2. Ah, really? Never noticed it, guess I never got it to kill them. Regardless, though, they can survive the fall. Considering their mass, might be a good dura feat.
3. Well. No. Hellblade Glavenus is a deviant. Not a typical Elder Dragon. Not exactly the same thing. The 7-A Kirin calc, imo, would scale to all Elder Dragons not of Deviant status.
4. How the hell did I miss that. Yeah, I can take a look later. Good find.
5. Zorah's energy was gonna collide with the Everstream to destroy the New World. That seems calc'able to me, though if it is not to anyone's liking, it doesn't bother me if we pretend it never happened. But Zorah is clearly a far cry superior to pretty much all other Elders as it takes a whole fleet to even handle him.
6. Don't think that is calc'able.
7. We'd have to get a volume and apply density of air to it and do Rotational Kinetic Energy on that volume, using tornado winds. Good find, might yield something cool.
Alright, cheers boyo.
Let's look at your points:
1. Yes. Agnaktor can CAUSE it, but that doesn't mean he can cause it outside of the Volcano. That's specifically in an area where that would be possible, as in, activation of a volcano. Also, destroying villages could take a large timeline or just be a result of the aforementioned feat of activating a volcano (and not wielding its power).
2. Ah, really? Never noticed it, guess I never got it to kill them. Regardless, though, they can survive the fall. Considering their mass, might be a good dura feat.
3. Well. No. Hellblade Glavenus is a deviant. Not a typical Elder Dragon. Not exactly the same thing. The 7-A Kirin calc, imo, would scale to all Elder Dragons not of Deviant status.
4. How the hell did I miss that. Yeah, I can take a look later. Good find.
5. Zorah's energy was gonna collide with the Everstream to destroy the New World. That seems calc'able to me, though if it is not to anyone's liking, it doesn't bother me if we pretend it never happened. But Zorah is clearly a far cry superior to pretty much all other Elders as it takes a whole fleet to even handle him.
6. Don't think that is calc'able.
7. We'd have to get a volume and apply density of air to it and do Rotational Kinetic Energy on that volume, using tornado winds. Good find, might yield something cool.
Alright, cheers boyo.
GimmyJibbsJr
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1. "When another stronger threat is with Agnaktor, there will usually be more volcanic activity and more eruptions in the area from the two fighting"
Nothing there says that Agnaktor is inside of the volcano like you claimed. In fact, [[1]] Here we see a Volcano erupt while Agnaktor is fighting Brachydios outside of the volcano, as you can see the sky and clouds as they fight (This was the highest quality version I could find, so we're gonna have to bear with the SF music in it lol. Also, at the end it does this weird cut to show Brachydios inside of some sort of cave, which actually isn't part of the primary cinematic, as it is a part of the Brachy's intro when you meet it for the first time on a hunt rather than being a part of the cinematic itself).
2. Fair enough point, I suppose. I haven't killed one with the fall either, but I've just seen clips of it happening tbh
3. Hellblade Glavenus is an Elder Dragon Level Monster (as are many of the Deviants, actually), meaning that it is on the same level as other Elder Dragons (Just like how Deviljho and Rajang are Elder Dragon Level Monsters). If Hellblade Glavenus is on the same level as other Elder Dragons, that means they are also likely at least Island Level. And again, Kirin is stated to be as strong as other Elder Dragons, meaning it would likely receive this kind of scaling as well. Also, Kirin appearing in the Coral Highlands and causing a thunderstorm causes all large monsters to leave the area, which includes Bazelguese, Deviljho's equal according to the Turf Wars, and Deviljho is a rival to Hellblade Glavenus.
Nothing there says that Agnaktor is inside of the volcano like you claimed. In fact, [[1]] Here we see a Volcano erupt while Agnaktor is fighting Brachydios outside of the volcano, as you can see the sky and clouds as they fight (This was the highest quality version I could find, so we're gonna have to bear with the SF music in it lol. Also, at the end it does this weird cut to show Brachydios inside of some sort of cave, which actually isn't part of the primary cinematic, as it is a part of the Brachy's intro when you meet it for the first time on a hunt rather than being a part of the cinematic itself).
2. Fair enough point, I suppose. I haven't killed one with the fall either, but I've just seen clips of it happening tbh
3. Hellblade Glavenus is an Elder Dragon Level Monster (as are many of the Deviants, actually), meaning that it is on the same level as other Elder Dragons (Just like how Deviljho and Rajang are Elder Dragon Level Monsters). If Hellblade Glavenus is on the same level as other Elder Dragons, that means they are also likely at least Island Level. And again, Kirin is stated to be as strong as other Elder Dragons, meaning it would likely receive this kind of scaling as well. Also, Kirin appearing in the Coral Highlands and causing a thunderstorm causes all large monsters to leave the area, which includes Bazelguese, Deviljho's equal according to the Turf Wars, and Deviljho is a rival to Hellblade Glavenus.
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1. I never said physically.
3. I'm in disagreement, since Deviants are regularly shown to shake things up quite a bit more than their mundane counterparts. 7-A makes sense for such a minute standing of being lesser. Bazel leaving really just means it doesn't want a fight. Or game mechanics, since Elder Dragons don't show up in locations alongside normal monsters in that game at all.
3. I'm in disagreement, since Deviants are regularly shown to shake things up quite a bit more than their mundane counterparts. 7-A makes sense for such a minute standing of being lesser. Bazel leaving really just means it doesn't want a fight. Or game mechanics, since Elder Dragons don't show up in locations alongside normal monsters in that game at all.
GimmyJibbsJr
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1. Well, it still occurs as a side affect of their battle, just like how the lore bit implies. So imo it seems fairly legit to me.
3. [[1]] Here is also a clip of Kirin making Rajang flinch and forcing it into Rage Mode immediately, something that usually takes a Hunter quite a while to do on their own. Rajang is an Elder Dragon Level monster, just like Hellblade, and on top of that Hellblade is specifically said to be an equal to Rajang. If Kirin was just 7-A, he wouldn't have been able to make Rajang (a 6-C character) flinch and go Rage Mode, especially when lightning is not that effective on Rajang to begin with (which just further adds to how powerful Kirin actually is).
3. [[1]] Here is also a clip of Kirin making Rajang flinch and forcing it into Rage Mode immediately, something that usually takes a Hunter quite a while to do on their own. Rajang is an Elder Dragon Level monster, just like Hellblade, and on top of that Hellblade is specifically said to be an equal to Rajang. If Kirin was just 7-A, he wouldn't have been able to make Rajang (a 6-C character) flinch and go Rage Mode, especially when lightning is not that effective on Rajang to begin with (which just further adds to how powerful Kirin actually is).
GimmyJibbsJr
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Also, I just realized what you meant by "outside of the Volcano", and honestly I don't think that changes much. Like, Agnaktor only ever lives in areas with volcanos. Regardless of that, being able to forcibly cause an eruption is still a viable feat, as it is implied to occur as a result of an intense battle.
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1. I still don't see it. It doesn't cause that damage on its own, it literally uses the potency of the volcano itself. It doesn't generate the lava, create the volcano, nothing. It just makes the volcano erupt.
3. A 7-A can viably harm a 6-C. If you sent a mountain and an island colliding into each other, each at the same speed, the island would destroy the mountain but would lose some of its force.
3. A 7-A can viably harm a 6-C. If you sent a mountain and an island colliding into each other, each at the same speed, the island would destroy the mountain but would lose some of its force.
GimmyJibbsJr
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1. By that logic all volcano calcs on this site would be rendered moot, which I don't see happening. That's like saying "this character didn't make the mountain or anything, all he did was throw it across the country". There have been tons of calcs on this website where volcanos are used to determine AP and Dura, so IDK why it's suddenly different here.
3. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works here at all. Based on your own calc for Kirin's thunderstorm, even if you go by the high end of Mountain Level+, and then compare it to the minimum for vaporizing a mountain (which is 2.052e19 Joules on this site), then Kirin at its best would only be as powerful as 14% of Rajang's power ( [[1]] I used this percent calculator to find this and I had converted both results to joules so it would work properly, btw). If Kirin was really only equal to 14% of Rajang's power, there would be no way for it to reliably make the monster flinch as well as force it into Rage Mode, especially since even Monster Hunters take longer to get the same results.
Since Kirin can make Rajang flinch and even force it into rage mode faster than Monster Hunters can (AKA a character that does receive the island level scaling), Kirin should also get the Island Level scaling.
3. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works here at all. Based on your own calc for Kirin's thunderstorm, even if you go by the high end of Mountain Level+, and then compare it to the minimum for vaporizing a mountain (which is 2.052e19 Joules on this site), then Kirin at its best would only be as powerful as 14% of Rajang's power ( [[1]] I used this percent calculator to find this and I had converted both results to joules so it would work properly, btw). If Kirin was really only equal to 14% of Rajang's power, there would be no way for it to reliably make the monster flinch as well as force it into Rage Mode, especially since even Monster Hunters take longer to get the same results.
Since Kirin can make Rajang flinch and even force it into rage mode faster than Monster Hunters can (AKA a character that does receive the island level scaling), Kirin should also get the Island Level scaling.
GimmyJibbsJr
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Also can we get other people's thoughts in on this? Kinda want to see what other people think.
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GimmyJibbsJr
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tl;dr Zorah Magdaros is likely 6-B (iirc that's where the calc put him at), but none of the other Elder Dragons in Monster Hunter: World scale to it. If anything, Fatalis, Crimson Fatalis, Alatreon and Dire Miralis scale due to being "First Class Dangerous Monsters", and are superior to the likes of everything else (except for White Fatalis, who is already Planetary).
However, there is still a fair amount of discussion on two other points, namely the placement of low tier monsters (more specifically Agnaktor's feat) and whether or not Kirin scales to Island Level like all the other Elder Dragons. I think that if everyone else here is alright with it, we could make an alternate thread discussing these points.
However, there is still a fair amount of discussion on two other points, namely the placement of low tier monsters (more specifically Agnaktor's feat) and whether or not Kirin scales to Island Level like all the other Elder Dragons. I think that if everyone else here is alright with it, we could make an alternate thread discussing these points.
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An alternate thread could be made.
As for the points brought up:
Throwing a mountain is different because you are applying the same amount of force to a set amount of mass. Agnaktor really only activates something else's AP. He's the match to the dynamite, not the dynamite itself. Furthermore, this is already a moot point because as I said, 7-C should be considered an outlier for a class of monsters pretty solidly within the lower half of Tier 8 (as in, up to 8-B or so).
As for the points brought up:
Throwing a mountain is different because you are applying the same amount of force to a set amount of mass. Agnaktor really only activates something else's AP. He's the match to the dynamite, not the dynamite itself. Furthermore, this is already a moot point because as I said, 7-C should be considered an outlier for a class of monsters pretty solidly within the lower half of Tier 8 (as in, up to 8-B or so).
GimmyJibbsJr
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https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1919801
Made a new thread for the Kirin and Agnaktor discussion. I tried to sum up both sides as well as I could, but I apologize if it doesn't do a good job of that.
Any input would be appreciated.
Made a new thread for the Kirin and Agnaktor discussion. I tried to sum up both sides as well as I could, but I apologize if it doesn't do a good job of that.
Any input would be appreciated.
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