5B To Aru

[Schnee_One]

So I've been looking for the justification for 5B To Aru characters such as Othinus and Fiamma of the Right, the only issue being is the only justification is statements saying they can "Turn a planet into dust" or blow it away.

Question is, are there other justifications as to this tier? Otherwise, a downgrade is in order as a Lack of feats and a statement does not justify a jump in power.

 

[Promestein]

Well, for Othinus "Her arrows hold enough power to easily destroy one or two planets, even though they are fired with such speed, that instead of causing an explosion they would pierce right through them without the impact propagating".

That could get calced I guess.

 

[Schnee_One]

That's in the High 6A range IIRC

 

[LordGinSama]

Wouldn't Fiamma need to over power the GBE of the planet? I think the rating is justified. Acnologia is High 6-B via a statement and we aren't downgrading him.

 

[Schnee_One]

High 6C to High 6B is a massive difference between High 6A and 5B

Also, Acno is a god tier, Fiamma is not.

And i=overcoming the GBE of the planet was never mentioned

 

[LordGinSama]

Hmm it doesn't need to be mentioned. I recall Kepe bringing this up in the Bayo thread and I trust his judgement much more as opposed to someone who can't calc. Anyway I'll ask Lazy for input here.

 

[Schnee_One]

The same guy who disagrees with 5B Fiamma? (Kep)

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

@Knight I'm not a calc guy, but I do know that you need to overpowers the GBE in order to destroy a planet.

Turning planet to dust is not, a Planet Level since it doesn't overpowered the GBE.

It is the reason why Magia Record Madoka isn't listed as Planet Level.

 

[LordGinSama]

The same guy who disagrees with 5B Fiamma? (Kep)

When was this? Last i remember he was actually arguing for 5-B Fiamma.

 

[Schnee_One]

In chat if I remember what he said correctly, but alas I shouldnt use that without proof.

But where?

 

[LordGinSama]

Literally in the Bayo vs Fiamma thread whenever Weekly brought up Fiamma's feat not being 5-B. Kepe said that feat would indeed be 5-B since he'd need to overpower the GBE of the world. But let's hear him again.

 

[TeenAngel101]

I was hoping High 1-C got resolved before this...

 

[Schnee_One]

My point about the legitmacy of the statement still stands

 

[LordGinSama]

My point about the legitmacy of the statement still stands

Gargoyle you have yet to even counter and or debunk the statement. Please enlighten us as to why it isn't legit?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Really guys?

Like basically any other feat of "can destroy a planet" in fiction that the GBE is overcome is a fair assumption. We basically assume that for every planet destruction we have on the wiki (with few exceptions where we have what is necessary to use KE or we factually know it isn't the case).


Aside from that it is even stated "In other words, it was a great calamity that could destroy an entire planet contaminating the surrounding area of space with a large amount of debris." clearly indicating seperation of the mass. The formulation of him blowing away a planet indicates that as well.


And in regards to statements: A Novel is nothing but a accumulation of statements and we even have a page that details how one can rank charcters based on them . The statements are consistent, non rhetorical, narrator statements and hence absolutely reliable.

 

[Schnee_One]

High 6C to High 6B is a massive difference between High 6A and 5B
Also, Acno is a god tier, Fiamma is not

I have yet to? Do I have to repeat myself again?

You proved your point on GBE, or rather Dont Talk did, the statement itself does not warrent an upgrade, same with 4C Bayonetta or 3A Dante (Last is more of an outlier but regardless)

 

[VoidGoji]

Some translations put him at Star Level, but it was agreed as a mistranslation.

 

[LordGinSama]

That quite literally changes nothing Gargoyle. I really hope you know that. All you did was say "Fiamma isn't a god tier." Despite there being ways to wank and scale him to High 1-C. ( Which I obviously don't agree with.) And 3-A Dante isn't even an outlier it's not that Matt debunked the "Muh Universal Dante." Argument. Now please do tell me what's wrong with the statement.


And Don't Talk already explained the GBE thing so yeah.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Some translations put him at Star Level, but it was agreed as a mistranslation.

IIRC less a mistranslation, as there in japanese being a word that can mean both star and planet.

Context wise it makes more sense for it to be planet, though.

 

[VoidGoji]

@DT

One of the statements says "destroy a burning star into nothingness"

 

[Schnee_One]

The statement itself has nothing to back it up is my point and is a huge jump in tier as opposed to your example, and "it changes nothing" Is. And I mean no offense, not a good counter-argument

Your example has multiple reasons as to why it stays

 

[LordGinSama]

Alright, so basically what I'm getting is that you are saying "The statement itself has nothing to back it up." And no other arguments. Not really a good argument buddy. Also do you even read To Aru Gargoyle? You should try to actually read the entire LN where the statement came from before making a downgrade thread about something you clearly aren't very knowledgeable. The statement justifies his tier. You really haven't debunked the statement in the slightest.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't see why we should take a statement at face value if there's no feats on that level. We don't do so for other verses.

Statements of "He can destroy a planet" while never demonstrating feats on that scale isn't good enough.

 

[LazyHunter]

Fiamma has two statements literally stating he can destroy a planet with a casual attack. This is a statement given by a novel's narration, if it says it can destroy a planet the author very likely means that the attack can destroy a planet.

If it was necessary, he could easily smash the no longer needed adaptor with an overwhelming explosion of light that could turn an entire planet to dust.

In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.

And it's consistent with Gabriel easily playing with stars back in vol 4, and Othinus on the verge of death still having the ability to shoot several arrows with the power to easily destroy a planet or two. Trying to invoke the AoE fallacy with such a clear statement, really Gargoyle?

 

[VoidGoji]

We rank SS as Multi-Galaxy via a statement about galaxy level destruction. No character below Divine Cloth level has any feats near MG, just 4-A.

This is the same case as To Aru. High 6-A feats pre-LPSAD.

5-B to 4-C statements when he gets this power, wich is leagues above anything on Earth. (LPSAD is basically a level where the character is above any magic on Earth.)

 

[Schnee_One]

<Not a good argument

<No rebuttle

Nice

We've always done this with massive tier jumps Knight, and you know that very well and I even gave you examples.

Ironically enough, your example with Acnologia involves a charcater who consistently godstomps the entire verse with the one exception of PIS, which is more then what Fiamma is consistent with,

Also, I asked for more justification on 5B Fiamma, not too downgrade him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Schro

SS being 3-B is actually a lowball since single Gold Saints have 3-A feats.

@LazyHunter

" if it says it can destroy a planet the author very likely means that the attack can destroy a planet"

We don't go by authorial intent.

The statements themselves are nothing different than the usual "He can destroy a planet!" claim without it ever being proven. What Gabriel, a much stronger character can do, isn't very good as an argument.

It's no "AoE Fallacy", it's a lack of feats. AoE Fallacy would be if he had a 5-B feat and it was dimissed as an outlier since he only has one (Which is still a decent argument, as far as premises for outliers go).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also "Turning a planet to dust" can very easily be a metaphorical or poetic phrasing. It could just be lifewiping since that's more consistent with the actual feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity."

And this statement is even worse since immediately after it says it ca "recreate any legend in Christianity". This is hilarious if you actually know Judeo-Christian myths and stories, unless you want to argue that Fiamma is anywhere between 4-B, Low 2-C, and 2-B.

And don't give me a "Oh, but it's stated that he can so he obviously can". You know full well that when characters get this sort of ludicrous statements without proof they don't get accepted.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Are we at the OBD now where whenever one doesn't like a book franchise they just plug their ears and claim that literally everything in the book is unreliable, because there are no such things as reliable statements?

We have a page about how to upgrade characters based on statements. Doing such things is absolutely nothing new and it is regulated.


Simply calling things the author tells the reader unreliable without any reason why that particular information should be is not an acceptable standard. An author doesn't lie to its reader, it can at most use rhetoric devices or say something that is later on revealed to be false.

I always wonder how people that suspect any statement to be false read books, cause apparently they can't be sure if, for example, a characters hair is really red or the house is 20 meter tall, because that is only what the narration stated it to be and all such statements are apparently unreliable.


This is a 3 times repeated statement from the narrator, the most reliable source of statements, and non of these is written in a fashion suggesting it is a rhetoric device. In other words it is 100% reliable.

 

[LazyHunter]

The statements themselves are nothing different than the usual "He can destroy a planet!" claim without it ever being proven.
Except that's wrong, of course. This is not a third party or the character themselves claiming that they can destroy the planet like you apparently want to make it look like, it's the narration itself telling you, "hey, this character can easily destroy a planet", twice, and it being consistent with the statement for another character and the levels of power the verse has.

An unbiased narration statement like that is the best kind of statement you can get besides the author themselves literally confirming it. It's a way several books and LNs give you the power of their characters.

It's consistent within the character's stated power and the verse's power, nothing disproves it and Fiamma as LPSAD should be much stronger than Gabriel.

"Also "Turning a planet to dust" can very easily be a metaphorical or poetic phrasing. It could just be 'lifewiping' since that's more consistent with the actual feats."

Really? Turning a planet to dust it's clearly meant to be read in the sense of physically destroying the planet, because right after it you get the statement saying he could have blown a planet away with his attack. Not to mention lifewiping already being one of the statements for the much weaker base Fiamma.

"And this statement is even worse since immediately after it says it ca "recreate any legend in Christianity". This is hilarious if you actually know Judeo-Christian myths and stories, unless you want to argue that Fiamma is anywhere between 4-B, Low 2-C, and 2-B."

And the first part is accepted because it's supported by the other planet level statement, and the other isn't because it has nothing to support it, and nobody has claimed it does.

 

[Schnee_One]

Yeah after seeing this I agree with keeping it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

"In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity."
And this statement is even worse since immediately after it says it ca "recreate any legend in Christianity". This is hilarious if you actually know Judeo-Christian myths and stories, unless you want to argue that Fiamma is anywhere between 4-B, Low 2-C, and 2-B.

And don't give me a "Oh, but it's stated that he can so he obviously can". You know full well that when characters get this sort of ludicrous statements without proof they don't get accepted.

The christianity part you can chalk down to the author not being an expert in christianity and what even is counted as miracle being debatable. (god creating a universe would by many people not be considered a miracle, but gods power).

In general nobody accepts extrapolating from that part, because it is just too vague.

That however doesn't mean that the author told a random lie, he probably actually means that, just that he means that under the conditions of what he imagines that to entail.

IIRC Fiamma for example also has statements about how he can reproduce christian miracles performed with the right hand, which is basically the mechanism behind his ability. That doesn't mean that that ability would match our interpretation of what that would entail, though.

 

[Zensum]

Yeah no lol, fiamma has numerous planet level statments which are casual none of which come from any charcter and either narration or kamichi adding extra context to events. I dont see what the issue here.

Chrsitian mircales refers to how HR operates. LPSAD can easily reproduce any of the chrisitan magic in the verse and should exceed gabriel by a huge margin.

Agree with Lazy and DontTalk

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh hey Zen, how's it goin?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still haven't seen any 5-B feat, just a recurring appeal to authorial intent, and the accuracy of the narrator.

Also Lazy, if the statement you are using to make Fiamma Planet level has its second half discarded for being blatantly exaggerated, then the first half of the same phrase isn't holding any good ground.

I also don't appreciate the strawmaning of OBD, specially since people here are just as guilty of moving by bias.

 

[Golden_Void]

Let's also downgrade tier 4-B DB via Cell having no feats above mountain level yet he's solar system level from statements

Half of this wiki would be getting downgraded with this logic, I agree with DT.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1. That adds absolutely nothing to the legitimacy of the statements

2. That's a gross exaggeration, we are rarely so lax as we are with ToAru

3. Dragon Ball at least has solidly 4-C characters at that point.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

"Her arrows hold enough power to easily destroy one or two planets"

This seems to be a solid evidence for a Planet level feat to me. Her arrows just go straight through the planet because the surface area of the arrow is much less than the surface area of the planet's surface that it's making contact with.

It's the same reasoning in comparison to why standard bullets are easily able to pierce holes in walls despite not mathematically having enough kinetic energy to even damage walls if said surface area of the bullet was applied over a larger area.

 

[Schnee_One]

Going through the planet is High 6A tho